krispy d said:
eh.... no.
Not authorized to sub-let.
used keg morals
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eh.... no.
Not authorized to sub-let.
krispy d
Well-Known Member
come on bird I thought that was a good one...
I obviously don't subscribe to this philosophy, just using for sake of argument.
I obviously don't subscribe to this philosophy, just using for sake of argument.
JohnBarleycorn
Well-Known Member
Im shocked ! The highly ethical corporate institutions in America would never rip Us off !
delboy
Well-Known Member
krispy d said:
I think the legalise in security deposit contracts usually includes the statement in a timely fashion, i don't think that means several eons
the_bird said:
This is only true if bought from the distributor. If they were stolen from a bar as most of us suspect you're still screwing over a local bar ower who is likely a decent guy struggling to make it in the business. I am assuming this because usually huge bars owned by corparations have places to store enough kegs so they won't get stolen.
I think there are two types of folks on this board; The ones that buy or acquire grey market kegs for keggles and those who will bust chops because they can't find any in their area.
Seriously though, it's a mixed bag around here and if you don't have a problem with your conscience, grab your kegs and keep it to yourself.
Seriously though, it's a mixed bag around here and if you don't have a problem with your conscience, grab your kegs and keep it to yourself.
blefferd
Well-Known Member
ive always wondered that, what keeps people from buying a keg paying the deposit drinking all the beer turning the keg into a keggle with all the trimmings and making $200+ profit off of it? is there a way for the brewery to track the kegs once they have been sold to an individual, is there any ill effects of keeping a keg once you have drank all the beer out of it except minus your money?!
Cookiebaggs
Well-Known Member
You had to drink 15.5 gallons of BMC.
delboy
Well-Known Member
Cheesefood said:
Since comments on the probrewer forum seem to hold some weight i thought i would post a link to another thread were a brewer who is at the thin edge of the wedge states what he thinks of non-returnal.
http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-3329.html
about 2/3 down
i'll paraphrase for those that can't be bothered reading through
basically non returnal is theft and these people are pigs, turning a blind eye is just as bad.
delboy
Well-Known Member
Just for a laugh
So someone on craigslist near me is offering up used cars for $2500 each which are worth $7500. Awesome, right? So I e-mailed him and he wrote back with his phone number to call him. I did and he said:
"My son rents cars alot, and then neglects to return the cars, losing his deposit. He's strapped for cash, and I suggested he sell them to earn some money back on them."
So I'm not directly taking the car from the rental firm, some jerk is losing money and I'm gaining.
Should I feel guilt about this? It seems a little fishy, but even more I think it just sounds like they're not so bright (like why not just return the car and get your deposit back....) Right?
I could really use a cheap car for transport though. Thoughts?
Some of the comments so far seem to be
'buy the car, if you don't somebody else will'
'buy it and don't feel guilty espcially if its a big name like Herz, they won't miss the car and anyway they are screwing the small car rental firms, what with their aggresive business policies'
'Don't worry that the car is badged as property of Herz, you have to take people at face value how do you know he doesn't have permission to sell it'
As i say just for a laugh.
So someone on craigslist near me is offering up used cars for $2500 each which are worth $7500. Awesome, right? So I e-mailed him and he wrote back with his phone number to call him. I did and he said:
"My son rents cars alot, and then neglects to return the cars, losing his deposit. He's strapped for cash, and I suggested he sell them to earn some money back on them."
So I'm not directly taking the car from the rental firm, some jerk is losing money and I'm gaining.
Should I feel guilt about this? It seems a little fishy, but even more I think it just sounds like they're not so bright (like why not just return the car and get your deposit back....) Right?
I could really use a cheap car for transport though. Thoughts?
Some of the comments so far seem to be
'buy the car, if you don't somebody else will'
'buy it and don't feel guilty espcially if its a big name like Herz, they won't miss the car and anyway they are screwing the small car rental firms, what with their aggresive business policies'
'Don't worry that the car is badged as property of Herz, you have to take people at face value how do you know he doesn't have permission to sell it'
As i say just for a laugh.
blefferd said:
What keeps people from doing that is the same thing that keeps most people from walking into their neighbors house when they are not home, taking their stuff and selling on eBay! If I need to tell you what that is, then you probably wouldn't believe me anyway.
krispy d
Well-Known Member
delboy said:
here is the post:
Here's where I was going guys;
Since I have had 100% success with the dock sale (retail, walk-in, home draft system) agreement (AGREEMENT not a deposit) to charge $100.00 for a keg not returned within a specified time frame, maybe this is something that needs to be done in the wholesale arena? I think the tap handle situation could/should be similar. The question is, how will the market respond to it? Has anyone else done this yet?
I think the people who think it's fine to steal (yes, I said steal) kegs and handles are pigs. They are the same stock as the folks who think we are all getting rich and deserve to be robbed (corporations are evil-yata-yata). I think the atmosphere has to long been, "Whatever the customer wants". The distributor drivers don't want to lose a tap to anyone and they do whatever it takes to keep it. Including giving away your property. Turning a blind eye to theft is the same thing.
Just as craft brewers have set the standard of beer quality for 25 years now, I wonder if it's time to set the standard in the business of beer as well. Now if we can just get our guilds to consider this, we may just have a discussion started. No one brewery is going to pull this off. We are all going to have to stick together if we want the situation to change. If we don't, then so be it.
MOD EDIT: Took off this poster's identity, since he didn't consent to having his stuff posted here. Doesn't change the substance of what he's saying.
delboy said:
For a laugh my ass. You are comparing apples to oranges with that analogy.
krispy d
Well-Known Member
Dude said:
MMM fruit salad...
And keeps most people from renting copyrighted DVD's and making illegal copies for themselves...johnsma22 said:
Yeah, I need to be drinking right now. Maybe then comparing a registered motor vehicle with an oversized empty beer can would make more sense.Dude said:
I'm simply illustrating another of those "gray" areas. No fingers pointed at anyone specific.johnsma22 said:
I don't have enough fingers....:cross:
I could have used the "driving over 70MPH"....
Or the "deducting my dogs acupuncture as a medical expense on my taxes"...
analogies. No mal intent intended.
poguemahone
Well-Known Member
Odd thread.
You can give example upon example on ways to rationalize this but in the end it is stealing. On what level along the morality scale is really up to each individual - is it as bad as stealing a car or stealing music? That point is moot because the fact remains that the keg is being acquired without full discloser to the owner that they are not getting their property back. A deposit does not equal sale. If that was the case there would be no dilemma.
My point earlier on "if you have to ask then you already know the answer" is still correct in my opinion. The exercise of asking in the first place is simply a way of justifying one's actions. It's rationalization. Whether your rationalization includes "giving it to the man" or "they are rich so they won't miss it" or weird voodoo economics doesn't really matter. It's still all rationalization to excuse one's actions.
And by no means am I throwing a stone. I've stolen before as well.
Oh - and this post is simply a pot stirrer from a noob
I could really care less how you get your gear as long as it's not from my garage.
You can give example upon example on ways to rationalize this but in the end it is stealing. On what level along the morality scale is really up to each individual - is it as bad as stealing a car or stealing music? That point is moot because the fact remains that the keg is being acquired without full discloser to the owner that they are not getting their property back. A deposit does not equal sale. If that was the case there would be no dilemma.
My point earlier on "if you have to ask then you already know the answer" is still correct in my opinion. The exercise of asking in the first place is simply a way of justifying one's actions. It's rationalization. Whether your rationalization includes "giving it to the man" or "they are rich so they won't miss it" or weird voodoo economics doesn't really matter. It's still all rationalization to excuse one's actions.
And by no means am I throwing a stone. I've stolen before as well.
Oh - and this post is simply a pot stirrer from a noob
I could really care less how you get your gear as long as it's not from my garage.
Cheesefood
Well-Known Member
johnsma22 said:
http://homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=277567&postcount=18
No, not at all.
You're simply hypothetically repeating something you accidentally read. We're simply hypothetically stating a way to make a keggle.
As for Mr. We'reAllPigs,
Thanks for going into the brewing business to provide beer for what it costs you to produce it. I'm sure that you're not making any profit at all, nor are you ever perusing recipes people have publically posted.
Perhaps you should stick to bottles only, or put RFID tracking devices on them.
As for the Kegs-to-Cars comparison: you made yourself look dumb by asking it. According to your comparison, letting my friends come over and help themselves to a beer is like letting them help themselves to my car.
kvh
Well-Known Member
oh, my - spicy topic, eh?
I hate to say it folks, but I think I'm going to go for it. I realize it's possibly not the most ethical thing, but I ... well, I can't argue for it well other than I'm eager to grab a keggle or two when they're made available.
That said, if my girlfriend says 'No, we don't have the space for it, I don't care - no-way-no-how!', i'll be passing on them...
kvh
I hate to say it folks, but I think I'm going to go for it. I realize it's possibly not the most ethical thing, but I ... well, I can't argue for it well other than I'm eager to grab a keggle or two when they're made available.
That said, if my girlfriend says 'No, we don't have the space for it, I don't care - no-way-no-how!', i'll be passing on them...
kvh
I'm coming back to this pub. Conversation is lively and never once did someone ask "did I kill my yeast?".
And the beer is good too.
And the beer is good too.
krispy d
Well-Known Member
thanks for the edit. I wasn't thinking when I posted that someone on another board might not want there contact info strewn around the web...
BierMuncher said:I'm coming back to this pub. Conversation is lively and never once did someone ask "did I kill my yeast?".
And the beer is good too.
View attachment 1564
Help!!!!!!Did I kill my yeast???????
(you asked for it)
Cheesefood
Well-Known Member
No, the real question should be whether it's better to steal SS or Aluminum kegs.
jdoiv
Well-Known Member
I don't have a keggle and don't want or need one, so I have no dog in this fight. However, has anyone thought to call the local distributor and see if they have any kegs that are damaged and are not going to be returned to the brewery? They may just sell them to you for the price of scrap. Just a thought. Even the local micros may have some that are being aged out that they would be willing to sell to a home brewer.
Now back to the regularly scheduled debate
Now back to the regularly scheduled debate
krispy d
Well-Known Member
your well thought out logic has no place in immature argument full of half truths and conjecture!
kvh
Well-Known Member
krispy d said:your well thought out logic has no place in immature argument full of half truths and conjecture!
here here!
delboy
Well-Known Member
Dude said:
Newsflash, thats the point of an analogy to compare two things like apples and oranges, they are different in some respects but similar in others ie in this instance they are both fruits.
Just as purchasing a keg from someone who has aquired the keg by non-legal means is the same as purchasing a car from someone that has aquired it by non-legal means where they differ is the cost of the said item (oh and you can't drive a keg
).I think some other poster stated this made me look dumb, but then again was coming from someone that was spouting on some drivel about the brewer who shock horror had a problem with people stealing goods, so i'll take that as a roundabout compliment
kvh
Well-Known Member
That being said, I'm calling the local breweries right now...
damn you and your sensible, down to earth logic...
I mean thanks.
kvh
damn you and your sensible, down to earth logic...
I mean thanks.
kvh
You can only do that once or twice per distributor before they get wise to you. Every time I've gotten a keg, I've had to sign for it, usually under a photocopy of my driver's license. I've run into problems trying to get another keg without returning the first one (for a party where I know I'm going to run out of beer in the existing keg at home, so I'll need some more). It takes a lot of explaining to get them to agree to give you a second keg without returning the first. You probably wouldn't make much profit before the distributor cut you off.blefferd said:
That guy's story about not returning the kegs is a load of ********, too. There is usually no statute of limitations on returning empty kegs for the deposit. I've returned them over a year later with no problems (forgotten kegs under someone else's name in a closet at work). This guy is either a real idiot or a bad liar - I think I would avoid any business with him, regardless of my moral stance on kegs.
It's not right to ask others to justify your morality. Only you can do that.
You know it's not right or legal but if you want to do it then it's up to you.
Unless you want people to judge you.
You know it's not right or legal but if you want to do it then it's up to you.
Unless you want people to judge you.
delboy said:Newsflash, thats the point of an analogy to compare two things like apples and oranges, they are different in some respects but similar in others ie in this instance they are both fruits.
Just as purchasing a keg from someone who has aquired the keg by non-legal means is the same as purchasing a car from someone that has aquired it by non-legal means where they differ is the cost of the said item (oh and you can't drive a keg
I think some other poster stated this made me look dumb, but then again was coming from someone that was spouting on some drivel about the brewer who shock horror had a problem with people stealing goods, so i'll take that as a roundabout compliment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/orange
Evets
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should buy the kegs for $25 and turn them in for $75. If they won't take them back, I guess you're stuck with them.
delboy
Well-Known Member
Dude said:
just because its became a platitude for a idiom doesn' mean that the definition of an analogy is wrong.
i'll stick to collins and websters still cary more weight than wiki
delboy said:
Okay, you win.
Your opinion on the keg ethics is respectable, I can accept it.
But your idea of an analogy is false. I'll leave well enough alone.
I recently purchased a keg of coors light for a bachelor party. The store where I purchased it from told me up front that I had 2 weeks to return it for deposit. I haven't tested them yet to see if they will indeed keep my deposit for returning it past 2 weeks, but they will get the keg back. It's the only store in town with a good beer selection.
I've tried not to weigh in on these debates, made my views known in one thread and dislike commenting again. However, I can't judge people on where they get their kegs. I can well understand the temptation. The keg in my freezer of BMC swill is just sitting there, taunting me. It knows I need another keg for a fermenter.
Regardless, I believe that this debate will not die without some large changes in how distributing is handled. Until breweries are allowed to charge what they think is a fair deposit, the profit or convenience of keeping kegs will not go away.
I've tried not to weigh in on these debates, made my views known in one thread and dislike commenting again. However, I can't judge people on where they get their kegs. I can well understand the temptation. The keg in my freezer of BMC swill is just sitting there, taunting me. It knows I need another keg for a fermenter.
Regardless, I believe that this debate will not die without some large changes in how distributing is handled. Until breweries are allowed to charge what they think is a fair deposit, the profit or convenience of keeping kegs will not go away.
Wow, never heard of that...and 2 weeks is an awfully short period of time! I suppose there is one case where I would flat out keep a keg from a distributor: if they refused to give my deposit back.Vermicous said:
I had a liquor store tell me as little as 2 days to get the deposit back. Most recently, I just take in my empty when I need a new full one and they don't charge me for deposit. I keep 'em until they're empty (a month or two) then simply replace it with a full one. No more deposits, but they always get them back.
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