used keg morals

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kvh

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So someone on craigslist near me is offering up used kegs for $25 each. Awesome, right? So I e-mailed him and he wrote back with his phone number to call him. I did and he said:

"My son plays beer pong a lot, and then neglects to return the kegs, losing his $75 deposit. He's strapped for cash, and I suggested he sell them to earn some money back on them."

So I'm not directly taking kegs from the distributor, some jerk is losing money and I'm gaining.

Should I feel guilt about this? It seems a little fishy, but even more I think it just sounds like they're not so bright (like why not just return the kegs and get your deposits back....) Right?

I could really use some cheap kegs for keggles though. Thoughts?

kvh
 
Its a touchy subject to some people. I say do what you think is right. Personally as a person of capitalism I would take advantage of a deal like this.
 
***evidently, I have issues putting threads in the proper category - this should probably be in the DIY or Equipment forum - sorry in advance***

kvh
 
im not from the states so take what i say with a pinch of salt.
There was a similar scenario on a thread not so long ago basically someone pointed out that the deposit paid for a keg doesn't cover the true cost of a keg, its simply the maximal amount they are allowed to charge as a deposit.
So the rightful owners will be out of pocket if they don't get returned.
The fact that they are going to sell them for $25 instead of going back and getting the deposit doesn't just sound dumb, it sounds suspect.

Also i think the fact that you have posted this suggests you yourself have a moral problem with this scenario, i think you should listen to yourself!!
 
They probably stole them from the back of a pub, took them to the local scrapyard who won't touch them, then tried their last resort to unload them. It's probably not moral to buy them but Biermuncher is right. Someone else will buy em if not you. Hey, if you're catholic, just buy them and say sorry at bedtime ;-)
 
BierMuncher said:
If you don't, someone will.
Click to expand...

i think thats a moot point, i don't think people should set their moral code by the above, IMO its the ultimate cop out.
 
Well... you know what the issue is.

From a completely irrational POV, I'm less apt to feel up in arms about this if they're AB kegs (which I bet they are) than if they're owned by a small micro, but it's still technically helping someone to steal. But, many of us have kegs that have come from the "gray market," so to speak. Heck, you can go buy kegs from a scrapyard, and they're probably stolen.

Not an easy answer, but you're asking yourself the right question.
 
Do you think that Budweiser is losing so many kegs that it hurts?
Do you think they factor in shrinkage when pricing out their beer?
Do you think the cost to collect, evaluate, recondition and reuse a keg is minicule?

Trust me, they're not hurting. Not just that, but for people who live far from St Louis, you're probably doing them a favor. Figure out how much it costs to have someone drive around and collect empty kegs, then take them to a central site where they can be shipped to St. Louis (or wherever) and then reconditioned. The difference between making a new keg and recylcing a used one is probably about $10 on average, considering the kegs that they ship back only to discover they need to scrap it because of damage. Or what happens with a Miller keg gets returned to Budweiser? Do they then ship it to Milwaukee?

It's not like you broke in and stole a new, unused keg. They've already earned their money on that keg.

EDIT: I've e-mailed AB asking about their keg reuse costs and they declined to give info, but told me that they do scrap numerous kegs. I guess you can feel better about yourself by keeping only the rusty dented kegs.
 
delboy said:
i think thats a moot point, i don't think people should set their moral code by the above, IMO its the ultimate cop out.
Click to expand...

Simply stating a fact.
Who am I to impose my moral code on anyone?

Here's what I heard:

"My son...neglects to return the kegs, losing his $75 deposit. He's strapped for cash, and I suggested he sell them to earn some money back on them"

Pass judgement if you will. I'll take the statement at face value.
 
I don't think this a question of morals so much as a question of ethics but that is another argument alltogether. My take, (which should mean nothing to anybody but me I guess) is that of the robin hood scenario. I (and I'm not trying to justify my actions) would never steal, that is what we are doing here so lets not mince words, from a small local brewery that needs the money. I hold no such prcedent however for using AB kegs, Miller kegs, Coors kegs, etc. these companies are so huge and dirty in there practices that the loss of a couple of kegs to homebrewers is a drop in the bucket compared to the ones floating in scrap yards, holding up tables in dorm rooms, or just left to eventually be enveloped by the earth in random wooded areas post party.

so is it ok to steal? No

would I steal from AB? Sure to save a couple of bucks on brewing equipment.

there is such a fuzzy line here to me. to some it's all wrong no matter what. I respect that, If that is you go buy a kettle or order a reconditioned one from a reputable source. Personaly I see a huge difference between re-using a questionably obtained keg and stealing one of the back of a truck. Others view it all as theft. Go with your gut and don't mind what everyone else says about it.
 
eh, I did the same thing about a week ago.. and I feel fine. He is the irresponsible one, your just capitalizing on his laziness.
 
BierMuncher said:
Simply stating a fact.
Who am I to impose my moral code on anyone?

Here's what I heard:

"My son...neglects to return the kegs, losing his $75 deposit. He's strapped for cash, and I suggested he sell them to earn some money back on them"

Pass judgement if you will. I'll take the statement at face value.
Click to expand...

I think if you take that statement at face value, then you are condoning the purchase of a good that does not belong to the seller, that he has no authority to sell it and by doing so he is commiting theft, which IMO makes you then complicit in that theft.
Replace keg with car stero, HDTV or someother highly stealable item and re-read the above.
'If you don't buy that stolen car, stero, tv, someone else will' it just doesn't cut it.
 
the_bird said:
I'm less apt to feel up in arms about this if they're AB kegs (which I bet they are)
Click to expand...

You're right, they're Bud Light....

BierMuncher said:
If you don't, someone will.
Click to expand...

I think this is the actual answer. They're going to sell, and rather quickly. I'd like to think I'm going to put them to better use than someone else would.

kvh
 
What can i say, maybe one of the moderators should set up a section for trading stolen goods from what i can see it would get a lot of action :mad:
 
delboy said:
makes you then complicit in that theft
Click to expand...
What theft?

Agreement:

1) You give me $75 dollars as security to take this item.
2) You bring item back and you get your $75 back.
3) You don't bring item back and you don't get your $75 dollars back.

Pretty sure both parties agreed to this arrangement.

I'm pretty sure on the flip side that the company did not put that deposit into an escrow account, but rather used it in their normal cash flow to do business. (Which by the way is illegal in the states)
 
BierMuncher said:
Pretty sure both parties agreed to this arrangement.
Click to expand...

Amen, thats the whole point.

I am in an APT now, and if i screw something up, i lose my deposit.. same thing...
 
Deposits are up to 75 bucks now? No way.....

At any rate, go get them. You didn't steal it, you are paying for them, and cheese hit it right they are prolly BMC kegs and those ****ers aren't hurting in the least, looking for that one (or two) keg.

Go get them.
 
kvh said:
"My son plays beer pong a lot, and then neglects to return the kegs, losing his $75 deposit. He's strapped for cash, and I suggested he sell them to earn some money back on them."
Click to expand...

1) If this guys son is so strapped for cash, how about he cut back on his alcohol consumption. Although some may disagree, beer is a luxury and not a necessity. Even more so since the beer is being used to play a drinking game (which is lower down the list of priorities than say, electricity or car insurance).

2) If the boy is too lazy or stupid to return the keg, then he has no one to blame for his lack of spending money than himself. Is there a time limit on keg returns (I don't get commercial kegs)? If not, then why can't he return the kegs now? $75 to return a keg seems a lot better than $25 to sell it.

3) This person needs to let his son learn some responsibility. He is trying to bail his son out of a completely self-fixable situation. The boy is cash-poor due to laziness...Daddy to the rescue!
 
delboy said:
What can i say, maybe one of the moderators should set up a section for trading stolen goods from what i can see it would get a lot of action :mad:
Click to expand...
Ummm.

I'm not sure. But I think that was a shot at the audience.
 
BierMuncher said:
What theft?

Agreement:

1) You give me $75 dollars as security to take this item.
2) You bring item back and you get your $75 back.
3) You don't bring item back and you don't get your $75 dollars back.

Pretty sure both parties agreed to this arrangement.

I'm pretty sure on the flip side that the company did not put that deposit into an escrow account, but rather used it in their normal cash flow to do business. (Which by the way is illegal in the states)
Click to expand...

Where in the agreement does it say the property becomes yours. I'd be very surprised if the agreement doesn't state that the keg still remains the property of AB.
I don't know what way the law works in the states but in the U.K. last time i looked selling someone else's property amounts to theft (thank goodness).

Also I think the fact that the person is willing to sell a commidity worth $75 for $25 does not require the analytical detective powers of columbo to work out something is wrong with this deal.
If you want to stick to your head in the sand approach, 'if you don't, someone will', go for it.
 
If it was, I'd recommend caution on the part of the shooter.... ;)

Anyone who's looking for an easy answer - well, there isn't one. Are they stolen? Yeah. Can you change that fact? No. Practically speaking, will your purchase have any impact on this person's future behavior? No. If we ALL (even beyond HBT) refused to buy stolen kegs, would it potentially reduce demand? *Maybe* (the real demand comes from the scrap value, so blame China).

I'm not going to sit here in judgment on someone who buys kegs through Craiglist or eBay that are of questionable provinence.

We're also pretty close to having expressed all the arguments related to this question (which is asked about once a week, it seems), so if the discussion gets out of hand, it's getting closed.
 
Lets say that you rented an apartment and paid $1000 as a security deposit. That deposit is an incentive for you to not trash the place. Then lets say that you decided when you gave the deposit that you didn't care if you got the deposit back because it was your desire to trash the place. So you trash the place and you don't get your deposit back. Does that mean that the apartment now belongs to you?

Come on guys, this is simple! A rose by any other name is still a rose! Trying to justify theft because big bad AB has millions of dollars, and after all YOU didn't actually take it from them initially is the 'King of Cop Outs'!
 
OK, here's the deal on $10 deposits. I did a little research.

BMC charge $10 for a deposit because they can AFFORD to lose the kegs. And they know that microbreweries have a harder time making up the loss. So they look at it as a barrier of entry.

Simply put, I keep the prices low knowing that you have to lose profits to make up for it. You either abandon the market and I get more market share, or you have to limit your exposure in the market by taking up less taps. Either way, BMC win.

So if you steal one, make sure it has BMC on the side. Until they start raising their deposit prices, smaller breweries are the ones who get hurt.
 
Cheesefood said:
BMC charge $10 for a deposit because they can AFFORD to lose the kegs. And they know that microbreweries have a harder time making up the loss. So they look at it as a barrier of entry.
Click to expand...

Are you positive of this?

I thought I read once that this was mandated by the government, not the breweries. If the breweries could make a bigger deposit, they would. The gov won't let them, IIRC.
 
The ethics of buying a SS brewpot at the LHBS vs. buying a keg from a party other than the distributor/brewery is fairly clear cut. No one posts a thread entitled: "Bought a pot from the LHBS. Is it ethical?

The economics of buying a SS brewpot at the LHBS vs buying a keg from a party other than the distributor/brewery is clear as well. You can get a better deal buying a keg.

Economics and Ethics are not the same thing.

Have I ever done something unethical for economic reasons? Sure. But I don't ask others to redefine an ethical code to make myself feel better. I have to live with my decisions good and bad.

Full Disclosure: I have 2 kegs.

I bought one of mine one ebay. (Grey market, perhaps, but the seller is engaging in the sale in public and AB or Miller or the distributer in Columbus, OH can choose to investigate if they see this as a souce of keg loss)

I bought the other from a liquor store owner. It was a Czech import that was in their storage for several years. They no longer did business with the distributor. Keg was abandoned.
 
Cheesefood said:
So if you steal one, make sure it has BMC on the side. Until they start raising their deposit prices, smaller breweries are the ones who get hurt.
Click to expand...

This is not unlike someone saying that we should throw away all of our spare change to offset the defecit.
 
olllllo said:
This is not unlike someone saying that we should throw away all of our spare change to offset the defecit.
Click to expand...

Gee, didn't the Government do that by creating collectible quarters and dollar-coins the exact shape and size as quarters? Or by issuing bonds, which can be lost or destroyed? The Gov is constantly trying to remove change from circulation as a means of reducing the amount of money being traded.

What I'm saying is that until BMC raises their deposit prices, smaller brewers are forced to keep their deposits at a level that hurts profits significantly. It's the same thing that would happen if a war started and one buyer said "I'll pay $5,000 for every bullet manufactured." Would the opposition be able to afford to be at war?
 
:off:

Here's something I wish I'd read on the wiki:

"Cutting the Top

...Lay the keg on its side and use a flat bladed screw driver to depress the ball bearing in the top of the keg valve. If you do this while the keg is upright, you will get sprayed with stale beer..."

I'll attest to that.
 
OK just playing devils advocate now.

IMO a deposit is an effort to ENCOURAGE you to return the keg, not enforce you to return it. you pay for the keg and you pay a deposit. untill YOU decide to return the keg it yours to do with as you please. if you sell it to joe for 20 bucks it still is "owned" by the brewery you have just subletted the usage. The brewery has no legal recourse as far I know to come reposess the kegs. so you just "not finnished" using them.
 
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