Use secondary or stay in primary for the duration

[dawn_kiebawls]

(Questions towards the bottom) I'm just about to go on an absolute sour brewing frenzy (planning 2 batches a month for the next 5 months...I got a little carried away when I found ECY was available) but have finally realized that my plans were (much) larger than my budget (as is usually the case in this obsession)! I only have 2x 5g glass carboys and a 30L spiedel which I think I will have to just dedicate to sours/funk (especially since I think the Saison fermenting in it currently is infected..). I realize I will have to buy some additional fermentors to house all these projects but I'm hoping to minimize my costs by being able to primary in some vessels for the entire fermentation schedule or is secondary the preferred method?

I've read through a large number of the fermentation schedules on themadfermentationist.com and have noticed that with the exception of a few recipes Michael will almost always rack to a secondary and quite frequently a tertiary vessel (usually for fruits) before it gets to the bottling bucket. But, I've read a number of posts on this forum where people will stay in primary for the entire 12-18 months. Most of the threads/posts I've read were debating over the effects of autolysis on the homebrewing scale, which I have determined to be negligible because of the Brett in the mix. My issue is more of a budget crisis (that many fermentors can get expensive...quick) than possibly developing off-flavors, though with multiple rackings I think there is a fair amount of added O2 risk.

TL;DR

1) Other than autolysis, is there a risk of being in primary for a year+?
2) How much headspace is required in a carboy for primary? I'm hoping I can get away with a 4g batch in a 5g vessel to get started.
2b) How much headspace is too much for aging? I know the smallest amount is preferable, but is say 1-1.5g of headspace too much?
3) These vials are intended for a 5g batch. How big of a starter should I prepare if I scale up to an 8g batch?
4) Some of these will get racked to secondary regardless so I can harvest some of the cakes for later use. How many batches can one cake ferment in the future?
5) This probably should be posted in the Drunken Ramblings forum so I apologize..gotta love day drinking!

Thanks for all the help and I will keep you guys updated on all the progress I make, good or bad. Cheers!

 

[brownni5]

I'll do my best here:
I saw your other thread - I don't think your Saison is infected.
You can get away with fermenting a 5-gallon batch in a 5-gallon fermenter if you're smart about it - use a blow-off tube and a yeast that doesn't make a huge krausen. My glass 5-gallon fermenters are a little over 5-gallons, but my better bottles are 5-gallons at the neck - not gonna do 5-gallons in there.

With mixed ferm beers, you generally don't have to worry about yeast autolysis - Brett cleans up a lot of that. Aging in primary may be preferable to avoid excess oxygen intake. Secondary fermenters aren't necessary. If moving to secondary, fill them to the neck if possible.

Starters for Sacch strains are a good idea, but not necessary for the wild yeast or bacteria. If you're pitching only the ECY blend, probably best to make a starter, but might also be worth contacting them directly.

When reusing a slurry, you should consider fermenting with a fresh Sacch strain. Sacch doesn't do as well long-term as the Brett and bugs.

Did I miss any questions?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

1) Other than autolysis, is there a risk of being in primary for a year+?
2) How much headspace is required in a carboy for primary? I'm hoping I can get away with a 4g batch in a 5g vessel to get started.
2b) How much headspace is too much for aging? I know the smallest amount is preferable, but is say 1-1.5g of headspace too much?
3) These vials are intended for a 5g batch. How big of a starter should I prepare if I scale up to an 8g batch?
4) Some of these will get racked to secondary regardless so I can harvest some of the cakes for later use. How many batches can one cake ferment in the future?
5) This probably should be posted in the Drunken Ramblings forum so I apologize..gotta love day drinking!

Thanks for all the help and I will keep you guys updated on all the progress I make, good or bad. Cheers!

1. no.
2. As above - it depends on the primary yeast. 20% would be about a minimum.
2b. IMO, 1-1.5 gallon is too much headspace. If you want to run the entire ferment in the primary, top up with wort after the krausen drops. You can use wort from another batch, or starter wort (factor it in to the recipe design) or freeze wort from the original batch to add later.
3. A 1L starter should do it, as long as the yeast is fresh.
4. Lots. You should still pitch a fresh sacch yeast starter/packet/vial along with a bit of slurry - the slurry provides the bugs for souring and funk.

 

[henchman24]

1. Over my time brewing sours, I've had a number of sours sit on the cake for well over a year. Brett will clean up almost anything. No real risk.
2. Depends on how aggressive your yeast are, but leaving a half gallon or so of head space is probably enough... maybe less if you are okay with FermCap (I don't usually use it)
2b. My typical process for aging is having it sit on the yeast cake for 6-9 months, then transfer to a keg to be blending stock (I blend nearly all of my sours now). Those can sit for years under a small amount of pressure (3-5 psi) before I clear them out.
3. You could do a small starter to make sure it gets going, or supplement with a few grams of dry yeast. Overall on a mixed culture beer that is going to age a while, you don't need to worry too much about it. If you are doing staggered additions and trying to turn around sours quickly, then you have a completely different schedule and starters are likely needed.
4. Depends on the process you go for, but there is always a lot of yeast left over. You could continually repitch on top of the cake and reuse until it becomes to thick. You could wash the yeast each time and split into a few batches. You can use it after a sacc primary to funk/sour and get a ton of uses out of it. All depends on the process you use. My more traditional sour pipeline is a combo of pitching on top of the yeast cake and splitting that cake (along with some sacc yeast). But I also use some excess of the various mixed cultures to add notes to different beers.

Also, don't think of oxygen as purely your enemy. Some of the best flavors in sour beers are from micro oxidation. I'm not saying be irresponsible and splash away, but a tiny bit isn't always a bad thing.

 

[brownni5]

Preach sour brewers!

 

[couchsending]

I’m a believer in getting the beer off the yeast cake in a timely manner personally. Yes Brett will clean up autolysis and even potentially create certain Interesting flavor compounds from it however there really other issues associated with dying yeast than just autolysis flavors. Namely the detrimental effects it can have on head retention. Even if you transfer to a secondary vessel (unless you’re filtering) you’re still going to be transferring plenty of yeast that’s in suspension (even if the beer is almost clear).

As has been said some amount of oxidation isn’t necessarily a bad thing. When mixed ferm brewers are putting beer into wooden vessels that’s actually the number one reason for doing it. It’s not to create wood flavors in the beer (most don’t want that) but to add micro oxidative properties to the beer.

If you can fill to the neck in a carboy that’s probably ideal. You can always top up with other beer you brew later on as well.

Just try to refrain on taking samples too often. Give it a set time and be diligent about not sampling. Depending on the beer it could be 2 months, 6 months, 12 months, etc.

Instead of pitching into a yeast cake I would just save the yeast in a sanitized mason jar and just make a starter from it when you want to make something again. Don’t go too long but I wouldn’t pitch a beer onto a full cake of yeast unless you started with something really small and the next beer was a much higher starting gravity.