Current wisdom - just leave it in the primary bucket, rack into bottling bucket?

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, a very fundamental question from a guy who's a bit frozen in time and is realizing much has changed in terms of received wisdom and techniques. Cold sparging for one.

What's the received wisdom on a homebrew level regarding racking from a primary - in this case, a simple plastic ale pail - into a secondary, crashing, then on into the bottling bucket for bottle conditioned ales? Do people still rack once or more, or for most beers, are people no longer afraid of autolysis and off flavors, fearing oxidation more, and so completing the entirety of the fermentation cycle in one vessel (not CCV's, of course - your basic 6.5 gallon bucket or similiar)?

To give some context, my usual practice if dry hopping would be to primary in a keg-fermentor, rack to a secondary keg-fermentor for dry hopping with a hop-beer slurry for 3-4 days, fine and crash for 3 days, then rack off to either final vessel, usually a 10-gallon corny for forced carbonation and serving.

I'm going way back to earliest days brewing, not much equipment, no CO2, all naturally conditioned bottles or casks. But will be dry-hopping alot.

Just wondering whether most have stopped worrying about running all the fermentation cycle in one vessel.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Imo you're better off leaving it in one bucket, no secondary. Especially with hoppy ipas as they are more subjective to oxidation.

 

[dustinstriplin]

Oxidation is the number one enemy to IPAs; reducing it as much as possible is key to an IPA that doesn't lose it's aroma quickly. Autolysis is real, but it isn't going to impact your beer in a few weeks. It takes some serious neglect to get autolysis off-flavors. Autolysis also impacts head retention, which is tough to say whether a beer has been negatively impacted because so many things impact head retention. IPAs generally have good head retention anyway because of all the hops used.

long story short, skip secondary. Secondary introduces more problems (cleaning, oxidation, infection, etc...) without any benefits.

 

[fluketamer]

we have been having this same discussion on this thread :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/fermentation-time-in-a-single-fermenter.730172/
to sum up . you dont need a secondary except for very specific purposes like barrel aging or flavor additions (like racking onto fruit for example) etc.

from my own experience the risk of oxidation and infection is not worth the clarity benefit which will be achieved anyway through time. and cold temps.

 

[mac_1103]

are people no longer afraid of autolysis and off flavors, fearing oxidation more, and so completing the entirety of the fermentation cycle in one vessel

For the most part, yes.

my usual practice if dry hopping would be to primary in a keg-fermentor, rack to a secondary keg-fermentor for dry hopping with a hop-beer slurry for 3-4 days, fine and crash for 3 days, then rack off to either final vessel, usually a 10-gallon corny for forced carbonation and serving.

If these are all closed transfers from fermenter to purged keg and then on to another purged keg, then you're not exposing your beer to oxygen so knock yourself out. As long as you really do purge everything (i.e., don't forget the jumper lines) with CO2.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK, thanks, guys. This is basically like I started back in the 90's, and I've been xferring under CO2 and force carb'ed/counterpressure bottled for a long time. When I started, Papazian et al, it was all about getting off the trub, so I guess now that I'm going back to the beginning in a way in terms of plastic buckets, bottle conditioning etc., this single vessel thing was new to me anyway. Thanks for the help.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

For the most part, yes.

If these are all closed transfers from fermenter to purged keg and then on to another purged keg, then you're not exposing your beer to oxygen so knock yourself out. As long as you really do purge everything (i.e., don't forget the jumper lines) with CO2.

Hey Mac, thanks. Yep, see above - probably 20 years in CO2 driving and forced carbonation, so to be honest going back to 5 gallons, an igloo, plastic buckets, etc., probably stuck in time. Cool things I'm learning. Thanks again.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

When I bottle I bottle straight from the fermenting bucket through the spigot I got installed in it.
Dose the bottles priming sugar with a 5ml medicine doser.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

When I bottle I bottle straight from the fermenting bucket through the spigot I got installed in it.
Dose the bottles priming sugar with a 5ml medicine doser.

Maybe next time I'll just ferment and bottle from the bottling bucket, then. This one, I fermented into a bucket, and was going to rack it off to the bottling bucket (same bucket - just has a hole and spigot). Actually I have an auto-siphon and bottle filler, maybe this time I should just siphon and fill from the primary working now, rather than xferring over to the spigoted bucket.

 

[sibelman]

Re just the bottling bucket question: only two reasons for this. Avoiding bottling trub (but there are other ways to minimize this), and adding priming sugar/malt (and there are other ways to achieve this).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

double post

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Re just the bottling bucket question: only two reasons for this. Avoiding bottling trub (but there are other ways to minimize this), and adding priming sugar/malt (and there are other ways to achieve this).

I'm thinking of just dosing each bottle, but too much of a PITA imo. What are you thinking of?

I should probably mention the dry-hopping routine I learned from Goose Island, Matt Brynildson specifically and of course under CO2. Always dropped clear without any fining. And planned to do similar here, only dry hopping the slurry in a secondary, crashing, then racking off that into a bottling bucket for bottle conditioning. But I see now that's a lot of air.

 

[sibelman]

. What are you thinking of?

The only alternatives to per-bottle dosing are bulk dosing (problematic in the primary because air and storing up the trub) or bottling pre-carbed (with its own challenges, not consistent with plastic bucket fermenting anyway).

Transferring to a purged keg preloaded with priming solution is best. Otherwise, you have to accept that oxygen will stale the beer fairly quickly, so drink more quickly!

 

[fluketamer]

individual bottle primign with undissolved corn sugar with a clean teaspoon and funnel works well and is quicker than having to dissolve said sugar by calculating numbers, stirring into solution to dissolve , boil and cool and draw up 5 ml for each bottle. i like to just scoop up a level spoon of corn sugar dump in bottle and move to the next one. i have never had infection this way even though the sugar is not heated dissolved and cooled. i know this makes some people nervous. but when i worked in a lab we kept many things at high concentrations to avoid contamination by bacteria. most stuff cant grow on 100 percent of anything. i remember papazian once reccomended covering unused lme with a layer of dry corn sugar and storing in fridge to avoid spoilage.
i was never worried about introducing anything from my dry dextrose when i used to bottle. . also i think beer ph and abv level acts as a spoilage deterent. i never liked the idea of adding liquid to my fermented beer and stirring it or racking onto priming solution because it wont really fully dissolve without stirring. priming sugar solution is denser than beer and will sink to bottom. risking bottle bombs towards the end. i know millions do it this way but it never made sense to me.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The only alternatives to per-bottle dosing are bulk dosing (problematic in the primary because air and storing up the trub)

Yes, I thought that might be a problem. I am shooting for about 1.7 vCO2, not sure if those dosing tablets can conveniently be cut to estimate or not?

or bottling pre-carbed (with its own challenges, not consistent with plastic bucket fermenting anyway).

Do you mean, counterpressure filling?

Transferring to a purged keg preloaded with priming solution is best. Otherwise, you have to accept that oxygen will stale the beer fairly quickly, so drink more quickly!

I just realized, I think, another thing - probably going all the way back - that O2 wasn't as much a concern with natural conditioning because yeast will scavenge whatever O2 is introduced. But now it occurs to me - during priming and the conditioning phase, and I would have to look it up, but yeast undergo little growing/aerobic respiration, and with the population density more or less "set," we're really just seeing further anaerobic fermentation, right? So definitely an issue with O2, whether naturally conditioning or not? Do you mean, counterpressure filling? Yes, I thought that might be a problem.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

individual bottle primign with undissolved corn sugar with a clean teaspoon and funnel works well and is quicker than having to dissolve said sugar by calculating numbers, stirring into solution to dissolve , boil and cool and draw up 5 ml for each bottle. i like to just scoop up a level spoon of corn sugar dump in bottle and move to the next one. i have never had infection this way even though the sugar is not heated dissolved and cooled. i know this makes some people nervous. but when i worked in a lab we kept many things at high concentrations to avoid contamination by bacteria. most stuff cant grow on 100 percent of anything. i remember papazian once reccomended covering unused lme with a layer of dry corn sugar and storing in fridge to avoid spoilage.
i was never worried about introducing anything from my dry dextrose when i used to bottle. . also i think beer ph and abv level acts as a spoilage deterent. i never liked the idea of adding liquid to my fermented beer and stirring it or racking onto priming solution because it wont really fully dissolve without stirring. priming sugar solution is denser than beer and will sink to bottom. risking bottle bombs towards the end. i know millions do it this way but it never made sense to me.

Thanks. I condition at a lower typical rate, given these are bitters, but I can see the principle is the same.

 

[mac_1103]

O2 wasn't as much a concern with natural conditioning because yeast will scavenge whatever O2 is introduced

I think that the current CW is that the yeast are effective at scavenging O2 in the beer, but not so effective at scavenging O2 in the headspace. There are many threads on the topic of minimizing O2 in bottle conditioning. This one is up to 11 pages, but has some good stuff. Easiest process modification is to minimize headspace and cap on foam if you can.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I think that the current CW is that the yeast are effective at scavenging O2 in the beer, but not so effective at scavenging O2 in the headspace. There are many threads on the topic of minimizing O2 in bottle conditioning. This one is up to 11 pages, but has some good stuff. Easiest process modification is to minimize headspace and cap on foam if you can.

Fantastic! Thanks much.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think that the current CW is that the yeast are effective at scavenging O2 in the beer, but not so effective at scavenging O2 in the headspace

SNPA may be a interesting "case study" for "best practices" when bottle conditioning beer. BeerSmith podcast #293 (Colin Kaminski) has a couple of insights on SNPA and a bunch of insights on bottle conditioning in general.

For those who bottle from kegs and can "cap on foam", he has an observation or two on that as well.

 

[sibelman]

priming sugar solution is denser than beer and will sink to bottom.

I get this idea, but decades of experience feel me it mixes just fine during tracking into the bottling bucket.

Do you mean, counterpressure filling?

Yes. Haven't done it. Works well for some.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes. Haven't done it. Works well for some.

I had good experience with it. I think I had an Italian make, bench style, can't remember the name, and actually made the simple "T" style, both worked really well. Went to kegging because it was just so much easier.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I work differently for bottling and kegging. For bottling I move my plastic fermenter from the brew fridge and transfer to a bottling bucket. This stays at ambient temperature for about 3 days when it has cleared. I then bottle using a wand. I put a teaspoon of dextrose into each bottle via a funnel. Never had an oxidation issue. For kegging I again remove the fermenter from the fridge leave at ambient for 3 days then keg from the fermenter. When I dry hop which is not often its in the bottling bucket.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Never had an oxidation issue.

Small batches, stored chilled, and consumed promptly?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Usually 22 litres, stored at ambient, in the UK probably 5-20 C, consumed within 6-12 months.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Never had an oxidation issue.

Small batches, stored chilled, and consumed promptly?

Usually 22 litres, stored at ambient, in the UK probably 5-20 C, consumed within 6-12 months.

which beer styles are you brewing?

edits to correct format errors after cloudflare was throwing 522 errors.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

which beer styles are you brewing?

Bitter
APA
Brown Ale, US, UK
AAA
IPA US, UK, NZ, BE
wheatbeer
Stout
Pilsner, Czech, German, Mexican, Japanese
Munich Dunkel, Vienna Lager
Belgium Dubbel, Triple
Hoegaarden
Leffe
Saison
Biere de Garde

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Bottles	ABV %	Cap Colour	Date Bottled	Quantity
Route Citra 6	6.2%	Silver	27/7/22
Kwak	7.6%	Red	17/8/22
Budvar	5.2%	Pink	24/1/23
Devon Dumpling	5.1%	Gold	14/2/23
American Amber	5.1%	White	15/2/23
NZ IPA	5.8%	Light blue	8/3/23
Leffe Blonde	6.7%	Light green	13/4/23
Vienna Lager	4.9%	Red	20/4/23
Modelo	5.2%	Black	24/4/23
3 Monts	6.0%	Silver	7/6/23
Tropical England	5.2%	White	13/6/23
Hoegaarden	5.6%	Red	16/8/23
Moose Drool	5.6%	Black	22/8/23
Helicopter Pale	6.0%	Yellow	24/8/23
Citra IPA	5.8%	Black	17/9/23
La Chouffe	7.4%	Gold	26/9/23
Orval Pale	6.6%	Light blue	16/10/23
Elderflower Saison	6.2%	yellow	21/11/23	33cl
Kegs
🛢19 L Sussex Bitter	4.5%		23/9/23	3/4 full
🛢19 L Jail Ale	5.1%		24/10/23	Full
🛢19 L 5 Points	4.3%		21/11/23	Full

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm thinking of just dosing each bottle, but too much of a PITA imo. What are you thinking of?

I should probably mention the dry-hopping routine I learned from Goose Island, Matt Brynildson specifically and of course under CO2. Always dropped clear without any fining. And planned to do similar here, only dry hopping the slurry in a secondary, crashing, then racking off that into a bottling bucket for bottle conditioning. But I see now that's a lot of air.

Dosing each bottle is not so difficult if you do it by volume. Dissolve 1/4 cup priming sugar in water to make up a 125 ml volume / case of bottles and boiling it. Then measure 5 ml of the sugar solution into each sanitized bottle with a volumetric pipette.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I dose 36 bottles usually with a tsp and funnel it takes 10 minutes, how’s that a IT’S PITA?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Dosing each bottle is not so difficult if you do it by volume. Dissolve 1/4 cup priming sugar in water to make up a 125 ml volume / case of bottles and boiling it. Then measure 5 ml of the sugar solution into each sanitized bottle with a volumetric pipette.

That's a great solution (no pun intended). Thanks. In my case, I ended up with 4.5 g yield into the bottling bucket and 64F, so promash is giving me a needed 53 grams corn sugar, or each bottle gets 1.1 g sugar. I can make up a sugar solution and dose 5 ml accordingly.

 

[minmaxx77]

I use bottling bucket to prime but
I have never transfered during fermentation into secondary vessel. Even with the fruit or whatever flavour addition. I just add fruit in a hop bag into my FV when its close to the FG.

I have spigots on all my FV and once tried filling from there. I wanted to make side by side comparison. Did ~10 bottles wich i primed with random old table sugar. Just used sanitized funnel and spoon. Filled from FV spigot and remaining beer were transfered into bottling bucket on top of sugar solution and filled bottles as usually. I did not taste any differneces or no noticable oxidation on neither one. (2 were undercarbed wich we can assume was user error)

On oxidation definitely give this a read.

minimizing O2 in bottle conditioning. This one is up to 11 pages, but has some good stuff. Easiest process modification is to minimize headspace and cap on foam if you can.

I have no acces to CO2. What i do now to avoid oxidation is: 1. BOTTLING
* use few grams of ascorbic acid in mash and few grams again in bottling solution.
* Leave almost no headspace (5-10mm). * Hoppy beers i let warm up to room temp before bottling so the yeast is "awake" and ready to eat sugar when i bottle. (The idea is this if the yeast does scavange some O2 it does get rid of it sooner)
2. DRYHOP
*For hoppy beers just use more wp hops
*DH at high krausen when yeast is producing lot of CO2
* if late ferm DH is desired I STILL open the FV at high krausen and attach the hops to the lid with magnets. Close the lid and pull the magnet when its time.

I dont put hops ready at pitching time because its few extra days that hops are losing some of their aroma.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

On oxidation definitely give this a read.

It's the topic that eventually caused the change in "forum wisdom" around bottle conditioning. (Yes, you can bottle condition NEIPAs).

The idea of minimizing head space isn't 'new', just 're-discovered' - as the idea can be found in home brewing books published in the 1990s.

Ascorbic acid gets mixed reviews. Apparently 'too much' in the mash yields off flavors. At bottling time, it will help prevent oxidation, but won't fix damage that was done 'up stream'.

Storing the beer at round 40F probably doubles shelf life.

A couple of simple 'up-stream' changes seem to result in better beer at bottling time.

PET bottles (squeeze the head space closed) may be an attractive alternative. Note, however, that there seems to be some uncertainty around how many times they can be re-used.