Upcoming single-hop NEIPA brew day

[RyPA]

Next weekend I will be brewing a single hop NEIPA, using Yakima Valley 2021 Citra. This batch will be fermented and served out of the same keg, dry hopped using magnets doing a tea bag approach (dropping in for a few days, and then raising them back out). Pictures to follow, and feedback/suggestions are always welcome. Thanks to @Dgallo for answering my questions, and providing his base pale ale recipe as a base for this.

Grains

• 12 lb Maris Otter
• 2 lb Malted oats
• 1 lb White wheat malt
• 0.5 lb Honey malt

Citra hop schedule

• 0.5 oz @ 60
• 0.5 oz @ 10
• 1.0 oz @ FO
• 4.0 oz Hopstand @ 170F for 30 minutes
• 6.0 oz Dry hop

Yeast

• US05 LalBrew Verdant IPA

Water
Using distilled with salt additions
4 gallon mash
4 gallon sparge
Mash ph 5.39

• Ca = 100
• Mg = 18
• Na = 16
• SO4 = 100
• Cl = 200

Fermentation schedule

• Days 0~3 - 68F - Blow off
• Day ~4 - (or when fermentation has slowed) - 70/72F - Add spunding valve @ 12psi
• When I switch to pressurized fermentation, I will add the dry-hops
  • For dry-hopping, when I pitch the yeast I will have magnets in a muslin bag along with the hops, placed high up in the keg, out of the beer. At day ~4, I will slide the hops down into the beer, midway down the keg. When it comes time to begin serving out of the keg, I will slide the hops back up to the top of the keg, out of the beer.

Update 1/24/22
At 10 days this batch finished up with fermentation at 1.016 at 8.2% ABV, exactly what brewersfriend estimates the recipe at, or very close to it. I decided to increase the pressure to 15psi at day 7 to help out with carbonation towards the end of fermentation, which worked out perfectly as it was nearly ready to drink once cold.

Raising the dry-hops out of the beer was a fail, so they are going to sit in the keg until it's kicked. I am thinking that the bag was too heavy once the hops, and bag, were saturated with beer. I put the keg in the fridge early in the afternoon and poured my first glass around 7pm. I am beyond happy with this batch and am looking forward to brewing again. With around 5+ IPA's destroyed by oxidation I was about to give up on brewing if this batch did not come out good. Another thank you to @Dgallo for the pointers on preventing oxidation, help on water chem, and helping me build this recipe.

The beer is delicious, it has great mouthfeel, flavor, and aftertaste. I am going to likely re-use this grain bill and just switch up the hops to see what else I can come up with but I will most likely re-brew this exact recipe again.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1241477/citra-neipa

 

[hopjuice_71]

I only have on thought for your consideration. Is US05 the yeast you want to use for this? I know it is a popular yeast and some people do use it for NEIPAs, but it is not really at the top of the list for this style, at least not in my book. I think appropriate dry yeast options - if you want to stay with dry yeasts - would be Verdant, New England, or S-04. Verdant is a 1318 derivative and especially gives the ester profile associated with NEIPAs and complements hops like Citra really well. New England is reportedly a Conan/Vermont variant but the dry form seems to be a little more neutral yet still has a nice ester profile. Two packets (/5 gallon batch) of New England are recommended because the cell counts are lower for this strain. S-04 is popular for NEIPAs as it also has quite strong ester production. Personally, I don't like it as much because I get a noticeable tartness from it that doesn't work for me. However, I think many like it because the tartness can complement the citrus profiles of hops. Some extra food for your thought.

 

[RyPA]

To be honest with you, I do not have much experience with yeasts. I've always used US05 with the exception of my most recent milk stout, which used Nottingham, and this wasn't my call, it came with the kit.

I've been thinking about the yeast selection for this batch over the past few days, and have considered ordering either London Ale III or Juice. I went with a dry yeast due to not needing a starter, and ease of use. Can I use LAIII or Juice without a starter?

If I'd need a starter for liquid, I will look at the 3 dry you recommended and save the US05 for a backup.

Edit: Ordered some Verdant IPA yeast

 

[hopjuice_71]

LAIII or Juice are great choices - they are the same strain. Verdant is the dried version of an LAIII variant and it gives very similar results. Its widely available now so if you are buying yeast for this batch I would recommend giving it a try for its convenience... ..oops, just saw your edit that you ordered Verdant.. ..good choice, you won't regret it

 

[RyPA]

Cool, thank you for your recommendation. I did not know this was a dry version of LAIII, so that's awesome as I've read good things about LAIII. I was close to ordering the liquid yeast but decided to wait until I can do it more safely using a starter.

I ordered from Farmhouse, hoping they can get it to me by Friday or Saturday so I can brew over the weekend. If not, I'll wait another week.

 

[Jag75]

Looking forward to seeing how your beer turns out . We used A04 Barbarian for our NEIPA . It turned out really good but it's costly as we're not a big brewing Co. It makes more sense for us to use dry . I've actually put the Verdent NE on my list to get .

 

[ejf063]

If youre looking for input, I would drop the 60 min citra addition. It is not needed in a NEIPA. I have done NEIPA with zero hop additions until the boil is over. You'll get a contrasting bitterness with the late hop additions. I feel the .5 60 minute addition would be better suited as a late hop.
Hope this helps....

 

[RyPA]

If youre looking for input, I would drop the 60 min citra addition. It is not needed in a NEIPA. I have done NEIPA with zero hop additions until the boil is over. You'll get a contrasting bitterness with the late hop additions. I feel the .5 60 minute addition would be better suited as a late hop.
Hope this helps....

I appreciate the feedback, with this beer I am looking for it to be juicy and not bitter, so you recommend just dropping the 60 minute hop and everything else remain?

 

[ejf063]

I appreciate the feedback, with this beer I am looking for it to be juicy and not bitter, so you recommend just dropping the 60 minute hop and everything else remain?

Yeah. Your 10 minute, FO and hop stand are fine the way they are (add that .5 extra where ever you want in that schedule.)
But.... if you want be crazy, don't throw any in until the boils is over -at FO. Then, let your wort naturally cool, add another addition between 160-170... and then really go crazy and drop in another addition at 140*.
Then dry hop the hell out of it.
let us know!

 

[RyPA]

By naturally cool do you mean no chiller and just let it sit to let it reach 170, and then 140?

 

[ejf063]

I do. But, if you are pressed for time, after you hit those target temps and after like 20 mins you're not close to the next schedule, then you can use a chiller.
It will take some time for the temp to drop naturally.

 

[Dgallo]

You’re going to get lots of suggestions on hoping and yeast as everyone has their preference. Your original recipe is solid and by using us05, since it is neutral, it will quickly allow you to see how well you were able to minimize your o2 pick up post fermentation. As hops compounds will oxidize before esters.

 

[RyPA]

@ejf063 it seems like it would take quite a long time to cool to 170 then 140, with a lid on to prevent contamination.

@Dgallo I figured I'd get some opinions on this but I kind of like the idea of removing the 60 min bittering hop. From an oxidation perspective I'm pretty confident this brew will work so I'd rather use a more flavorful yeast and make the best of it. After this batch I am going to switch to smaller batches to experiment with..I should have been doing smaller batches to get my beer tasting good before committing to 5 gallons. My thought process was always that it takes the same amount of work and cleanup, so why not go big with 5 gallons.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

if you want be crazy, don't throw any in until the boils is over -at FO. Then, let your wort naturally cool, add another addition between 160-170... and then really go crazy and drop in another addition at 140*.

Looks similar to Basic Brewing Radio's Hop Sampler, but using an all-grain wort instead of DME. The amount of time between boil and 170F (15 min? 30 min?) will have a noticeable impact on the outcome.

 

[IslandLizard]

We used A04 Barbarian for our NEIPA . It turned out really good but it's costly as we're not a big brewing Co.

Don't you make your own starters or harvest and repitch?
How large are your batches?

 

[IslandLizard]

The amount of time between boil and 170F (15 min? 30 min?) will have a noticeable impact on the outcome.

The bitterness you create totally hinges on that.
Even whirlpooling for 30' @170F adds an appreciable bitterness.

So, yes, for repeatable results you need to control the times how long you want the hopped wort to remain at certain temps, especially during (extended) whirlpooling.

 

[Jag75]

Don't you make your own starters or harvest and repitch?
How large are your batches?

We've done starters and have talked about harvesting yeast . The problem is you have to look at how often you brew and the amount .

Batch size is 2bbl . I did harvest the A07 flagship . It's in a container . I'm just leary of using it on a light beer as this was from a stout.

If we use liquid again I will plan out the brews different , lighter beer to darker and lighter abv to heavier . We paid a tad over 300 for 4L of pure pitch .

 

[IslandLizard]

We paid a tad over 300 for 4L of pure pitch .

Ouch!
Wouldn't 4L be enough for 20 barrels?

 

[Jag75]

Ouch!
Wouldn't 4L be enough for 20 barrels?

Lol . This is what we got

 

[ejf063]

@ejf063 it seems like it would take quite a long time to cool to 170 then 140, with a lid on to prevent contamination.

I dont ever use a lid. I have never had a problem. I was scared crapless the first few times, but now, I dont even think twice. I kill the boil, add the hops and walk away.
Check the temp and repeat.
I am not trying to hijack your idea or recipe. Like I said... the only thing I would do different was nix that 60 min addition and the yeast was already addressed before I chimed in. It most definitely is a solid recipe. I am just giving you some other ideas or options. The zero boil addition with step-down temp additions have always resulted in a nice juicy NEIPA. I have had great results with your current schedule, too. Which is better? I don't know. I have never done a side-by-side. But the last 2 NEIPAs I did over the summer were zero boil late hop and they were hands down my best. (I also had a new temp control element in the fermentation which greatly impacts the final result).
As @Dgallo said, there will be a variety of ideas thrown at you, and none of them are right or wrong... they are just ideas. My techniques of zero boil and no lid came after batches and batches of beer. I took chances and things worked out. I know I have sought advice here and used some ideas. Other ideas I stole when I was trolling through posts.
Basically, whichever direction you choose, you'll be good.

 

[RyPA]

So to clarify, when you cut the heat, you do not use a chiller at all and your wort cools to pitching temp naturally?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Looks similar to Basic Brewing Radio's Hop Sampler, but using an all-grain wort instead of DME. The amount of time between boil and 170F (15 min? 30 min?) will have a noticeable impact on the outcome.

The bitterness you create totally hinges on that.

and BBR (and a similar Brulosophy article) has sent a bottle or two to labs to have IBUs measured ...

 

[ejf063]

Well, I don't let it fall all the way down to the low 70's. If I am doing a 140* addition, I'll let it steep for 20-30 mins tops. I mean... I got a life, lol.
After that 20-30 mins, then I start up the chiller and cool her down to pitching temps, and I'll empty into the fermenter. As the wort is being emptied I pitch the yeast. The wort that i'm collecting re-hydrates the yeast as I fill the fermenter. I just make sure the stream of wort hits the dry yeast as I fill.
This technique is yet another lil tid-bit I picked up here.

 

[RyPA]

What does it do to let it sit from boil to 170, opposed to using a chiller to get to 170? After the hop stand, you then chill down to pitch temps?

 

[ejf063]

you have longer contact with the hops and more hop oil is released. That longer contact time also imparts additional bitterness.

 

[RyPA]

But for an NEIPA, isn't the objective less bitterness?

 

[Dgallo]

But for an NEIPA, isn't the objective less bitterness?

Less harsh and more rounded bitterness. Most of your favorite examples are still in the 50-60 ibus, take treehouse and trillium for example

 

[RyPA]

What would provide the more rounded bitterness, cooling to 170, or resting to 170?

 

[Dgallo]

What would provide the more rounded bitterness, cooling to 170, or resting to 170?

Water chemistry and ph is the only way to do that.

 

[RyPA]

Ok so resting to 170 makes it more bitter than if I cooled to 170. Water chem controls roundness.

Since I do not want a bitter beer, I think I will cool to 170. Leaving the small 60 hop addition for a little bitterness.

 

[ejf063]

Actually, I don't know if "resting" at or "cooling" adds to bitterness. The longer the hops are in contact with warmer wort, the more extraction of the alpha acids you will have. But they are not being boiled, which will contribute to bitterness. Basically, if you use a brewer's software program, any hops added after a boil merely estimate the IBU contributed as there is no boil time.

 

[RyPA]

Ok, I'm going to chill to get to 170, instead of waiting.

 

[RyPA]

Should I be worried about the krausen using the Verdant yeast? This batch will be 5 gallons fermented in a 6.1 gallon Torpedo. Wondering if I should switch back to US05 to be safe.

I will have a blow off tube connected to my gas disconnect, and then a spunding valve on the disconnect when things settle down.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Nothing home brewing related is worth worrying about A few drops of antifoam in a fermenter keg does wonders. The blowoff will also help, and may spew a bit of yeast, but I'm sure it will be fine.

 

[RyPA]

Not sure if I want to use that as it can affect the head of the beer? As long as the gas out will not clog and cause my keg to explode, I am good.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Not sure if I want to use that as it can affect the head of the beer? As long as the gas out will not clog and cause my keg to explode, I am good.

I have used it many times and it doesn't affect the foam on beer. They are silicone based and settle at the bottom of the fermenter. Lots of people use it. Just a bit of insurance. That being said, most likely your gas out won't clog and all will be good.

 

[RyPA]

Ah you're right, just found this

Also known as FermCap S, Foam Control does not affect the head on your finished beer. In fact, it can actually increase the head by retaining head-forming compounds that would have been blown off during fermentation. ... Add two drops per gallon at start of fermentation.

 

[Bobby_M]

Actually, I don't know if "resting" at or "cooling" adds to bitterness. The longer the hops are in contact with warmer wort, the more extraction of the alpha acids you will have. But they are not being boiled, which will contribute to bitterness. Basically, if you use a brewer's software program, any hops added after a boil merely estimate the IBU contributed as there is no boil time.

Isomerization doesn't require boiling. It just happens slower at lower temps.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Actually, I don't know if "resting" at or "cooling" adds to bitterness.

I hinted at this earlier with BBR's "hop sampler" approach. @Bobby_M provides a chart with some details.

This podcast episode (link) may be of interest

Basic Brewing Radio - November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps
Dr. Chris Hamilton of Hillsdale College in Michigan shares results of his experiments testing the effects of increased wort gravity and different hop stand temperatures on IBU measurements. He also updates us on his research with Clarity Ferm on gluten in beer.

There's a PDF associated with the podcast with a lot of additional information.

The "Master Brewers Podcast" (link), episode 123, may also be of interest.

The "Hop Sampler" brew day is intended to be a quick way to make a six pack of beer for sampling: 3 qt water, 1 lb DME, 1 oz hops, dry yeast. When water starts to boil, add DME & hops. Remove from heat. Let it cool naturally for 20-ish minutes. Chill & pitch the yeast. I find that that wort goes from boiling to around 155F in about 20 minutes.

There's a "hop steep" variation that I've done in the past: Heat the water to 180F, add DME & hops, hold wort at 180F, chill. The result is a very different beer.

Finally,

• New England IPA - Blasphemy - No Boil NEIPA
• No-Boil Recipes! New for 2019!

 

[ejf063]

Should I be worried about the krausen using the Verdant yeast? This batch will be 5 gallons fermented in a 6.1 gallon Torpedo. Wondering if I should switch back to US05 to be safe.

Keep the verdant. Use a blow off and you'll be fine.

Isomerization doesn't require boiling. It just happens slower at lower temps.

View attachment 755232

Thanks @Bobby_M . The graph shows that you'll get roughly a quarter of the IBU if you drop your first hop addition in at about 175*. And that's if you leave it in the full 60 mins and held that 175 temp. The temp will cool as time goes on so the imparted bitterness will be less than what is documented.

You will want bitterness in any beer and frankly if you add hops its essentially unavoidable. You want bitterness to complement the sweetness (think "bitter/sweet"). There are so many different techniques about mitigating the harshness of bitterness, like first wort hops and post boil hop, water composition, ph, etc...
We haven't even gotten into oxidation, lol.
We are really getting into the weeds with you initial request here. I find that when I think too much about new stuff I start getting too anxious. You sound like you have a plan. Let us know how you proceed and what the final procedure was.