Unsure If Fermentation Has Finished

[xMichael]

Hello everyone! I've lurked here for awhile and got some great advice via browsing, but now I think I need some direct guidance...

So a few weeks ago, on 4/27, I brewed a high gravity extract hefeweizen. I found a recipe somewhere on here, I believe, but I changed it a bit to make it high gravity.

I used 11 pounds of Bavarian Wheat DME from Briess, 2 TBSP of lemon zest, orange zest, and dried sage, respectively.

I pitched the yeast, WLP300, at 67F. I did not make a starter for this.

I forgot to take an OG reading before pitching the yeast, but I did immediately after doing so. I took 3 separate readings and the hydrometer read 1.069 each time. I'm not sure if the pitched yeast affected this at all, but I took the reading within seconds of pitching.

Needless to say, the wort I used to check for gravity went back into the fermenter.

It's been about 3 weeks now (5/16), and I thought that naturally after this long, it's ready to be bottled. I took my FG reading and it was an unsightly 1.03. I tried this several more times and got the same reading. For what it's worth, this was the only time I tested for FG, because I did not have any sanitizer for the beer thief until today.

I kept the temperatures anywhere between 67F - 72F, which I presume was an acceptable fermenting temperature range.

I noticed krausen within 4 hours of pitching, had violent blowoff for ~60 hours beginning on day 2, and constant blowoff bubbling up until maybe 5-6 days ago, possibly a week.

Any idea what my next step should be? Surely 1.03 can't be my true final gravity. I'm eager to bottle this up, as I've got everything in my kitchen all set up, but I'd like this brew to reach its full potential, and I certainly don't want bottle bombs.

I'm open to all advice and I thank you all in advance.

 

[jtratcliff]

hmmmm 1.030 does seem kinda high... I've read that it's typical for extract batches to finish out around 1.020 due to some unfermentables in the extract (Breiss lists their Bavarian Wheat DME as 75% fermentable).

Has it stayed at 1.030 over several days? Your temps were in the optimal range for that yeast but maybe warm it up a bit and give it swirl (without splashing) to see if you can rouse the yeast into finishing off the last 10 points?

If it doesn't go any lower, package it. Maybe go a little easy on priming sugar just in case.

 

[jtratcliff]

Oh, also.. is you hydrometer calibrated?

 

[ACbrewer]

1.069 sound low for 11lb of DME. For 11lb of dme with 44 points per pound gallon and 5.5 gallons of wort, your OG should have been 1.088, not 1.069. I blame stratification ie poor mixing of the top off water. I did this once, only I take from the bottom, had a 1.070+ on a 1.050 beer....

Anyhow, so a 1.088 with .75 attenuation is still in the 1.022 range, BUT 1.088 is a BIG BEER. you probably under pitched the yeast. You should expect a more Begian flavor profile from the yeast stress. Also you should expect difficulty getting down all the way because you have to little oxygen in it. Everything I've heard says you have to pitch twice the yeast at start and hit it with another blast of oxygen at the 12 hour mark in addition to the oxygen at the start.

So what to do now? Well first, sample it - does it taste good? If it does then it might be desirable to bottle, but bombs are still and issue.
Second it is possible that 1.030 is as low as it will go. You might try pitching more yeast, but if you do that, you really need to find a way to get some of the CO2 out without adding in a lot more O2. Heck just getting some CO2 out will help even if you don't pitch more yeast.
What temps are you working at? Bringing the temps up might help it finish, that is a tactic that the Belgian beers use.

I'd probably do this,
1. get more yeast
2. add yeast
3 and GENTLY stir so that CO2 comes out, but no so hard that you bring much O2 in. Wine makers do this all the time, and it is called "degassing" If this is in a bucket, you might try a gentle tap with a mallet on the outside to cause the CO2 to come out of solution (with the lid on) and thus prevent there being any more O2 that can be added.
4. bring temp up by about 3 to 5 degrees but not higher than 74 or 75F

3 is probably the most controversial as most people are death on oxygenating their beer (as opposed to their wort). And if you weren't stuck I'd not recommend it at all. You can look for a 'stuck beer' threads for help.

Simply racking your beer is a good way to get it to degas some and can cause a stuck ferment to get going again. When you bottle, you may need to include some fresh yeast with the bottling sugar.

 

[xMichael]

hmmmm 1.030 does seem kinda high... I've read that it's typical for extract batches to finish out around 1.020 due to some unfermentables in the extract (Breiss lists their Bavarian Wheat DME as 75% fermentable).

Has it stayed at 1.030 over several days? Your temps were in the optimal range for that yeast but maybe warm it up a bit and give it swirl (without splashing) to see if you can rouse the yeast into finishing off the last 10 points?

If it doesn't go any lower, package it. Maybe go a little easy on priming sugar just in case.

Unfortunately today was the first day I tested for FG. I would have tested a bit earlier, but I just got sanitizer today so I can sanitize the beer thief/test tube, etc...

As far as calibrating the hydro, this is gonna sound embarrassing, but I'm not sure how to calibrate it...all I know is that it reads 1.00 with water (unsure of temp)

 

[jtratcliff]

it reads 1.00 with water (unsure of temp)

That's what I mean... it should read 1.000 in water at it's calibration temperature. Sometimes they can be off (the paper inside slips, or wasn't correct to begin with). Off by 10 points seems unlikely, but it's good to check.

 

[xMichael]

1.069 sound low for 11lb of DME. For 11lb of dme with 44 points per pound gallon and 5.5 gallons of wort, your OG should have been 1.088, not 1.069. I blame stratification ie poor mixing of the top off water. I did this once, only I take from the bottom, had a 1.070+ on a 1.050 beer....

Anyhow, so a 1.088 with .75 attenuation is still in the 1.022 range, BUT 1.088 is a BIG BEER. you probably under pitched the yeast. You should expect a more Begian flavor profile from the yeast stress. Also you should expect difficulty getting down all the way because you have to little oxygen in it. Everything I've heard says you have to pitch twice the yeast at start and hit it with another blast of oxygen at the 12 hour mark in addition to the oxygen at the start.

So what to do now? Well first, sample it - does it taste good? If it does then it might be desirable to bottle, but bombs are still and issue.
Second it is possible that 1.030 is as low as it will go. You might try pitching more yeast, but if you do that, you really need to find a way to get some of the CO2 out without adding in a lot more O2. Heck just getting some CO2 out will help even if you don't pitch more yeast.
What temps are you working at? Bringing the temps up might help it finish, that is a tactic that the Belgian beers use.

I'd probably do this,
1. get more yeast
2. add yeast
3 and GENTLY stir so that CO2 comes out, but no so hard that you bring much O2 in. Wine makers do this all the time, and it is called "degassing" If this is in a bucket, you might try a gentle tap with a mallet on the outside to cause the CO2 to come out of solution (with the lid on) and thus prevent there being any more O2 that can be added.
4. bring temp up by about 3 to 5 degrees but not higher than 74 or 75F

3 is probably the most controversial as most people are death on oxygenating their beer (as opposed to their wort). And if you weren't stuck I'd not recommend it at all. You can look for a 'stuck beer' threads for help.

Simply racking your beer is a good way to get it to degas some and can cause a stuck ferment to get going again. When you bottle, you may need to include some fresh yeast with the bottling sugar.

Gotcha, everything I read about high grav beers emphasized aerating the hell out of the wort. I realized simply rocking it back and forth for 10 minutes likely wasn't enough in this case lol. Should I look into a real aerator for the future?

I have a secondary fermenter not in use, should I rack to that, add yeast, and then maintain 72-74F? In the meantime I will browse those threads

Edit: The sample did taste pretty good, imo

 

[boydster]

Here's what I would do if it were me:

1. Warm it up a few degrees and gently rouse the yeast from the bottom. Wait and see if you get any action over a couple days. If that doesn't work, on to 2.
2. Get more yeast and build up a small starter. Pitch at high krausen. Wait and see if there's any activity. If not, check gravity in a couple days. If there is, wait until it's done and check gravity a couple days after it settles down.
3. Optional: Do a fast ferment test. I'd probably do this if the gravity still hadn't changed at all. That should answer decisively whether your beer is stuck, or just done.
4. Nothing left to do at this point except package it up. I mean, you could add amylase or something, but that's a little extreme I think.

 

[xMichael]

Update:

I've elevated the temp to 74F for a few hours and I've begun to gently rocking the fermenter every now and then, being careful not to cause any splashing.

I'll check FG again this Wednesday. If there are no changes, should I make a starter or just pitch some yeast directly? Thanks again everybody

 

[boydster]

Update:

I've elevated the temp to 74F for a few hours and I've begun to gently rocking the fermenter every now and then, being careful not to cause any splashing.

I'll check FG again this Wednesday. If there are no changes, should I make a starter or just pitch some yeast directly? Thanks again everybody

Make a starter and pitch at high krausen. Pitching a bunch of dormant yeast into a oxygen- and nutrient-depleted, alcoholic environment will most likely result in the new yeast falling straight to the bottom and staying dormant with the rest of the yeast cake you already have.

 

[xMichael]

Make a starter and pitch at high krausen. Pitching a bunch of dormant yeast into a oxygen- and nutrient-depleted, alcoholic environment will most likely result in the new yeast falling straight to the bottom and staying dormant with the rest of the yeast cake you already have.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll pick up everything I need for a starter tomorrow. Just so I do this right, high krausen will be around 18 hours after pitching into the starter?

It seems for this brew, I didn't aerate enough (I only rocked the fermenter for 10 minutes before pitching), and/or I didn't have enough yeast cells working/ no starter...could there be any other issues I should be aware of for future brews?

Also for future brews, especially big beers, I should always make a starter and have an aeration device, right? Sorry for all the questions, this is only my second batch

 

[boydster]

C'est bon, mon ami.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll pick up everything I need for a starter tomorrow. Just so I do this right, high krausen will be around 18 hours after pitching into the starter?

Any time you've got a big head of foam on the starter, it's ready to pitch. It's not something you need to worry about being too exact about, you just want some very active yeast. Don't jump the gun on repitching, though - it's really not usually necessary and should be probably be considered almost a last ditch effort to bring the gravity down. Usually, your best bet is the get the yeast that's already in there to finish up. My post was meant specifically to address that time when you've decided that warming and rousing the yeast just didn't work.

It seems for this brew, I didn't aerate enough (I only rocked the fermenter for 10 minutes before pitching), and/or I didn't have enough yeast cells working/ no starter...could there be any other issues I should be aware of for future brews?

IMO, pitch rate and fermentation temperature control are the biggies to get a handle on early on in your brewing career. Nail those first, and for big beers be a little more thorough on aerating, and you'll make good beer. Then you can fine tune the other stuff - maybe you go for an O2 system, or pressurized fermentation, or glycol-cooler conicals or... I digress.

Also for future brews, especially big beers, I should always make a starter and have an aeration device, right? Sorry for all the questions, this is only my second batch

Definitely make starters with liquid yeast and aerate as best you can on big beers. On most beers, really. Check out Mr Malty and Brewer's Friend and any other pitch rate calculators you see to get an idea of how people target a pitch rate. For ales, the generally accepted pitch rate is .75 million cells per ml per degree Plato. For aeration, without an O2 setup you can only get up to 8ppm oxygen at best, but I think with a well-aerated starter (read: stir plate starter) you can help mitigate the effects of have less-than-ideal aeration in your wort.

Whatever you do, nail down your process and try to get as many controllables under control as possible. When you are comfortable that you've achieved that, it's a perfect time to start experimenting with those controllable factors to see how it impacts your beer. Then, you'll have much more insight into what new processes or equipment might be worth incorporating.

 

[ACbrewer]

C'est bon, mon ami.


For aeration, without an O2 setup you can only get up to 8ppm oxygen at best, but I think with a well-aerated starter (read: stir plate starter) you can help mitigate the effects of have less-than-ideal aeration in your wort.

I think with a stone you can get around 10ppm of O2, without it I think the best you can get is 5ppm. And it really doesn't matter if you stir, shake or whatever. Chris White in Yeast (not with me at the time) has the numbers.

On a big beer (over 1.080) the recommendation is to it with O2 and get that 10ppm at start and then about 12 hours later the same.

A starter will help you get more yeast to pitch. Typically just a starter will double it. A stir plate with x4 it. iirc

 

[boydster]

I think with a stone you can get around 10ppm of O2, without it I think the best you can get is 5ppm. And it really doesn't matter if you stir, shake or whatever. Chris White in Yeast (not with me at the time) has the numbers.

On a big beer (over 1.080) the recommendation is to it with O2 and get that 10ppm at start and then about 12 hours later the same.

A starter will help you get more yeast to pitch. Typically just a starter will double it. A stir plate with x4 it. iirc

This is from Wyeast:

Method DO ppm Time
Siphon Spray 4 ppm 0 sec.
Splashing & Shaking 8 ppm 40 sec.
Aquarium Pump w/ stone 8 ppm 5 min
Pure Oxygen w/ stone 0-26ppm 60 sec (12ppm)

 

[MaryB]

Do you have a link to the hydrometer you are using? Is it a triple scale and you are maybe reading the wrong scale? When measuring FG I use a hydrometer that measures .980 to 1.020...