Unexpected caramel: Difference between Munich and Munich II ?

[seilenos]

Short version:

I used 10% Munich II instead of Munich in a California Common. Could this be the cause of the unexpected caramel forward flavor?

Long version:

I recently brewed a California Common and it came out really good. Like multiple people commented multiple times unprompted on how much they liked it and kept going back for more instead of the generic "It's good." when asked about it.

The problem is that the recipe didn't come out like I expected and I would like to know why as this probably will be added into an annual rotation.

I was expecting it to be a beer that would be great on a summer afternoon; like a slightly heavier "lawnmower" beer.
What I got was full flavor caramel. Take an Anchor Steam and amp up the flavors but not in a bad way. Instead of "summer afternoon" I got a "late summer/early fall night around a fire" beer which is exactly what I did to "release" it to friends.

Looking back at the recipe I noticed it had called for 10% Munich and I had put in 10% Munich II instead.

Would that be enough to amp the caramel sweetness?

 

[TheMadKing]

You should definitely not get any Caramel from Munich or Munich 2 Munich 2 is a kilned malt and not a roasted or crystal malt.

Caramelization and kilning are very different processes. Caramelization takes place at high temperatures, I can't remember the exact temp but it's upwards if 300F

Kilning on the other hand is essentially heated drying and happens much lower, around 180. Kilning created maillard reactions which add fresh baked bread crust flavors.

Caramelization creates that sweet/burnt flavor by forming complex sugar chains at high temperatures.

If you got Caramelization flavors using no Caramel malt I suspect one of 2 things has happened:

Either you boiled your wort far too vigorously and got "kettle Caramelization" or you are misidentifying Caramel flavor

If you did you crystal/Caramel malt, that's where your flavor probably comes from. Maybe you got exceptionally fresh crystal? I find that most mass produced American crystal malts smell very stale and almost rancid to me unless they are very fresh. I almost always go with English Caramel malts for this reason

 

[Spundit]

I dont get much caramel from munich malt even at 50% of the grist. However there are a lot of dark munich malts out there some pushing 20 L +. I don't have experience with those.

I believe the most popular one sold as munich 2 is Weyermann and it is about 9L while their munich 1 is about 6L. At 10% of the grist I would think the Weyermann munich 2 would add more maltiness but I think it would be a very very subtle difference.

 

[Beernik]

CaraMunich II will give you caramel flavor because it’s a crystal malt.

Wyermann & Briess Munich 30L should have some caramel aroma but not necessarily a lot of caramel flavor.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What I got was full flavor caramel.

Just an observation: Weyermann makes a CaraMunich Type 2 and a Munich Type 2.

eta: posted at same time as #3 (above).

edit: broken link

 

[seilenos]

Could certainly be I am focusing on the wrong thing or even that my expectations were wrong. I went to Munich because that was a notable variance from the recipe when I looked at my notes. It is informative that Munich II shouldn't cause that much of a difference.

Maybe the best course of action will be to make it again and see if it comes out the same way, paying special attention to the ingredients to ensure that there was no accidental replacement with the wrong thing.

Based on the the response from friends I don't expect this batch to last that long so a rebrew isn't the worst option!

 

[seilenos]

I'm actually wondering if I wrote down caramunich II instead of munich II on my grain bill at the LHBS.

Next time I'm in I will see if they can pull the order and compare. Maybe that will solve the mystery.

I try to learn something on every brew ... even if it wasn't the actual cause, just this thread has taught me the difference between munich and caramunich.

 

[Vale71]

I'm actually wondering if I wrote down caramunich II instead of munich II on my grain bill at the LHBS.

There's also the possibility you wrote down Munich II and somebody at the LHBS had a brain fart and milled some Caramunich II. I wouldn't expect any caramel notes from either Munich I or II even with 100% of the grist and a double decoction. Unfortunately there is no way to know for sure what happned after the fact.

 

[Miraculix]

And just to point out out, there really is no connection at all between Munich and caramunich. Caramunich is "just a regular" crystal malt with a fancy name.

 

[TheMadKing]

And just to point out out, there really is no connection at all between Munich and caramunich. Caramunich is "just a regular" crystal malt with a fancy name.

Blasphemy! It tastes more German!

 

[VikeMan]

Regarding the possible substitution of Caramunich in place of Munich, what kind of attenuation did you get vs. what you were expecting?

 

[seilenos]

Regarding the possible substitution of Caramunich in place of Munich, what kind of attenuation did you get vs. what you were expecting?

66.4% for Wyeast 2112 California Lager. Expectation was 70%. No starter ... still working on making that a consistent part of brewing process.
FG was 1.017 and expected 1.015. I use a basic (ie, cheap) refractometer and convert so I assume I'm "in the ballpark" with any numbers.

 

[VikeMan]

66.4% for Wyeast 2112 California Lager. Expectation was 70%. No starter ... still working on making that a consistent part of brewing process.
FG was 1.017 and expected 1.015. I use a basic (ie, cheap) refractometer and convert so I assume I'm "in the ballpark" with any numbers.

You might be in the ballpark. OTOH, a higher FG is exactly what you'd expect with a crystal/caramel malt in place of a base malt.

 

[odie]

Munich 2 is basically "dark" Munich....10L vs 20L I think. Not a huge difference. That's why it came out "different" but not a huge difference. Basically just moving up the base malt flavor profile by one step...

Think in the order of pils/wheat/2 row/pale ale/MO/vienna/munich light (1)/munich dark (2) as a progression of base malt flavors.

I have both Munich 1 & 2...they are different...but not that different. At a ratio of only 10% they are almost interchangeable...which is why your beer is still tasty and fairly close to what you were expecting anyway.

I believe Caramunich is just Wyermann's name for crystal/caramel malts.

 

[tennesseean_87]

One tangential issue here is that 'Munich' means different things for different maltsters.

For Weyerman, there is type 1 at ~6L and type 2 at ~9L. These are highly kilned base malts that you can make smash beers from, etc.

For Briess, there is Bonlander at 10, Aromatic Munich at 20, and Dark Munich at 30L. The latter two are nearly as dark as specialty malts like Victory, Biscuit, Amber, etc.

Type 2 is the darker Weyerman Munich variety, but it's much different than Dark Munich from Briess. This can easily lead to confusion when recipes don't specify the maltster.

 

[VikeMan]

Munich 2 is basically "dark" Munich....10L vs 20L I think. Not a huge difference.

Weyermann
Munich I ~ 6L
Munich II ~ 9L
(I haven't seen any other maltsters identify their Munich variants as "I" and "II.")

Caramunich I ~ 35L
Caramunich II ~ 45L
Caramunich III ~ 56L

I have both Munich 1 & 2...they are different...but not that different. At a ratio of only 10% they are almost interchangeable...which is why your beer is still tasty and fairly close to what you were expecting anyway.

I read the OP to say that the beer was definitely not close to what he expected. "I was expecting it to be a beer that would be great on a summer afternoon; like a slightly heavier "lawnmower" beer. What I got was full flavor caramel." Based on the description and on the lower than expected attenuation, my money is still on an inadvertant caramunich substitution.

 

[odie]

One tangential issue here is that 'Munich' means different things for different maltsters.

For Weyerman, there is type 1 at ~6L and type 2 at ~9L. These are highly kilned base malts that you can make smash beers from, etc.

For Briess, there is Bonlander at 10, Aromatic Munich at 20, and Dark Munich at 30L. The latter two are nearly as dark as specialty malts like Victory, Biscuit, Amber, etc.

Type 2 is the darker Weyerman Munich variety, but it's much different than Dark Munich from Briess. This can easily lead to confusion when recipes don't specify the maltster.

yep...too many "proprietary" malts...they all want you to think theirs is special and not to sub a different brand...

For "Munich" base malts I basically subscribe to the belief that there is "light" and "dark"...whether they call it 1 or 2, or 10L or 20L or whatever...

There are malt substitution/comparison charts that decipher much of this confusion between brands...I wish I had found those charts long, long ago....I would not have stockpiled quite the inventory of grain that I have today...

 

[VikeMan]

For "Munich" base malts I basically subscribe to the belief that there is "light" and "dark"...whether they call it 1 or 2, or 10L or 20L or whatever...

Sure, but "2" (i.e. II) is only about half as dark as 20L. "Light" and Dark" are too nebulous IMO. Also IMO, any recipe that specifies any kind of Munich without stating the maltster and the "type" (or at the very least the lovibond or EBC color) is bound to cause someone some disappointment at some point.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

And just to point out out, there really is no connection at all between Munich and caramunich. Caramunich is "just a regular" crystal malt with a fancy name.

I did not know that, I had always thought it was crystal malt made from Munich.

 

[VikeMan]

I did not know that, I had always thought it was crystal malt made from Munich.

FWIW, once you've made (i.e. dried/kilned) Munich malt (or any other base malt for that matter), it can't be made into a crystal malt, because at that point it's too late to stew it.

 

[Miraculix]

FWIW, once you've made (i.e. dried/kilned) Munich malt (or any other base malt for that matter), it can't be made into a crystal malt, because at that point it's too late to stew it.

Well, you could still add water and dry it again, but that's not being done tmk. The enzymes are there, at least in the lighter version.

 

[Miraculix]

I did not know that, I had always thought it was crystal malt made from Munich.

I thought so as well, before I looked it up.

 

[Ninoid]

Maybe sweetness is from yeast esters?