under attenuated wheat beer... what did I do wrong?

[Deckers_Beers]

I just had a very frustrating experience... after doing everything I thought was right, I ended up with a FG of 1.020. I was looking for 1.014

Here's the recipe, and the story:

12 gal

12 lb 2-row
10 lb American white wheat
.8 lb Vienna
.8 lb Carapils
.8 lb Victory
2 x Wyeast 1010 (American wheat), with yeast starters
filtered Costco water

EDIT: Mashed at 153* - 155* for 90 min

64* 2 wks, 68* 1 wk

I filled 2 carboys, one with slightly more volume than the other, each had a separate starter (2 cups distilled water w/ 1/2 cup pilsen DME each). When I went to bottle them 3 weeks after brewday, the smaller vol. carboy had a FB of 1.018. Disappointing, but bottled anyway. The 2nd carboy with the larger vol. had a FG of 1.022!!! I decided that was unacceptable.

I put the 2nd carboy back into the fermentation chamber at 72* and shook/swirled the hell out of it once or twice a day for a week, and then let it sit for another week to settle out again. So at this point it's spent 5 weeks in the carboy.

I just bottled it yesterday and the FG had only come down 2 points to 1.020.

So my question is, what the hell did I do wrong? Is it something to do with the recipe (which I've used in an extract form before, but had never done an all-grain version)? Is this a case of bad yeast?

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[55x11]

I just had a very frustrating experience... after doing everything I thought was right, I ended up with a FG of 1.020. I was looking for 1.014

Here's the recipe, and the story:

12 gal

12 lb 2-row
10 lb American white wheat
.8 lb Vienna
.8 lb Carapils
.8 lb Victory
2 x Wyeast 1010 (American wheat), with yeast starters
filtered Costco water

64* 2 wks, 68* 1 wk

I filled 2 carboys, one with slightly more volume than the other, each had a separate starter (2 cups distilled water w/ 1/2 cup pilsen DME each). When I went to bottle them 3 weeks after brewday, the smaller vol. carboy had a FB of 1.018. Disappointing, but bottled anyway. The 2nd carboy with the larger vol. had a FG of 1.022!!! I decided that was unacceptable.

I put the 2nd carboy back into the fermentation chamber at 72* and shook/swirled the hell out of it once or twice a day for a week, and then let it sit for another week to settle out again. So at this point it's spent 5 weeks in the carboy.

I just bottled it yesterday and the FG had only come down 2 points to 1.020.

So my question is, what the hell did I do wrong? Is it something to do with the recipe (which I've used in an extract form before, but had never done an all-grain version)? Is this a case of bad yeast?

Thanks in advance for the help!

is it possible you mashed at too high a temperature? That could leave a lot of unfermentable sugars.

Have you tried to repitch another yeast to see if that changes final gravity?
2 cups (?) is a very tiny starter by the way. Just enough to "wake up" the yeast but not enough to propagate it. I don't think that's a problem but you need a bigger starter in general.

 

[Sammy86]

is it possible you mashed at too high a temperature? That could leave a lot of unfermentable sugars.



Have you tried to repitch another yeast to see if that changes final gravity?

2 cups (?) is a very tiny starter by the way. Just enough to "wake up" the yeast but not enough to propagate it. I don't think that's a problem but you need a bigger starter in general.

I agree mash temp could be too high...WY1010 has always been beast for me...

 

[Deckers_Beers]

is it possible you mashed at too high a temperature? That could leave a lot of unfermentable sugars.

Have you tried to repitch another yeast to see if that changes final gravity?
2 cups (?) is a very tiny starter by the way. Just enough to "wake up" the yeast but not enough to propagate it. I don't think that's a problem but you need a bigger starter in general.

I just edited to include Mash Temp, I was shooting for 153* and was just a bit hight at 155*, but it did drop a degree or two over the 90 min mash. I wanted a medium mouthfeel, so I thought that temp would work. Maybe I should have gone for 150*?

I thought 2 cups water with 1/2 cup DME was standard for a 5 gallon starter? I did two, one for each carboy. How large are yours starters?

 

[Deckers_Beers]

I agree mash temp could be too high...WY1010 has always been beast for me...

Yes, the last time I made this beer (as an extract brew), I used WY3333, and it worked wonderfully. got down to 1.013.

What issues have you had with 1010 in the past?

 

[Sammy86]

Yes, the last time I made this beer (as an extract brew), I used WY3333, and it worked wonderfully. got down to 1.013.

What issues have you had with 1010 in the past?

I haven't had any issues with 1010...it's been an amazing yeast.

 

[Mainer]

So... just to clarify, the brew shop gave you White Malted Wheat, not flaked wheat, right?

 

[m00ps]

- you mashed too high for this style. depending on the accuracy/calibration of your thermometer, it could be even higher

- 1/2 cup dme, 2 cups water is not standard for a 5gal batch starter, its dependant on your yeast health and goes by volume of the starter, not ratio of water to dme

- what was your og? you mightve overshot that by a large margin

 

[Deckers_Beers]

So... just to clarify, the brew shop gave you White Malted Wheat, not flaked wheat, right?

yes, malted wheat

 

[Deckers_Beers]

- you mashed too high for this style. depending on the accuracy/calibration of your thermometer, it could be even higher

- 1/2 cup dme, 2 cups water is not standard for a 5gal batch starter, its dependant on your yeast health and goes by volume of the starter, not ratio of water to dme

- what was your og? you mightve overshot that by a large margin

- so what would the proper mash temp be, more in the 150* range?

- that was what I read in Palmer's "How to Brew," and it's what I've done for about 10 batches now and they worked great. That being said, I'm definitely open to new information!!! Do you use a calculator for figuring out your starter volume? and how to you determine your yeast health if your buying a Wyeast packet that is w/in the "best used" period?

- the OG was 1.060, which was only a few points higher than I was shooting for (1.057).

Thanks for the help m00ps!

 

[Deckers_Beers]

I haven't had any issues with 1010...it's been an amazing yeast.

Oh, sorry, I guess I misinterpreted what you meant by "beast," haha

 

[flars]

Two best pitch rate/starter calculators. Mrmalty is good for some things, but terrible for estimating viability. Brewers Friend calculator is also close.
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

I would have gone for a mash temperature of 152°F for this style and wanting it to feel good in the mouth.

 

[eadavis80]

NB website says 650 ML water and 2 cups of DME for a starter. I've used this for every starter I've ever done (unless I'm using harvested yeast that's more than a month old... then I'll do this twice - cold crash/decant after step 1 and do it again for step 2). I've used 1010 on several wheat beers and they all got down to at least 1.012 using this starter process. Again - I'd say mash temp was the culprit here - not stater size. NB has told me websites like Mr. Malty encourage way bigger starters than they think are really necessary. IME, your starter size was fine.

 

[madscientist451]

Did you save the yeast for a rebrew? I'd do a 5 gallon rebrew and mash at 152F. Use a strike water calculator so you accurately hit your mash temp.
I'd go with 1.5 qt/lb water/grist for mashing.
Re-pitch your yeast and ferment the same temperature as before and see what happens. I'll speculate that with a good re-pitch of yeast and an accurate mash temp, you'll be able to get closer to your target attenuation.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

NB website says 650 ML water and 2 cups of DME for a starter. I've used this for every starter I've ever done

650 ML = 2.75 cups, so you're almost doing equal parts water & DME?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

650 ML = 2.75 cups, so you're almost doing equal parts water & DME?

Actually (yes, I'm pedantic) 650ML = 2 600 000 000 cups.

 

[eadavis80]

650 ML = 2.75 cups, so you're almost doing equal parts water & DME?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/YeastStarter.pdf

 

[Deckers_Beers]

Ok... so I've been researching around and finding many different DME/water ratios as being recommended. The most frequent I'm seeing is ~ 1/2 - 3/4 cup DME - 1L of water, but also seeing 1/2 cup DME to ~ 2 - 2.75 cups. LOTS of conflicting information...

For the sake of argument, let's figure that 1 cup of DME = ~4 oz (that was based on another HBT thread - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=215615) and after looking at a DME OG calculator, it looks like 1 cup DME - 4 cups water will give you an OG of 1.045, which is just outside of the 1.030-1.040 range I'm seeing everywhere for the starter target.

THEREFORE, I'm guesstimating that 3/4 of DME - 4 cups of water will give you around 1.038 or so. Which I guess is the sweet spot.

I've been using growlers to make starters, so I can easily do a 1.5 liter starter, of about 6.34 cups. I'm thinking of going for 1 cup of DME for that volume for my next brewday this weekend, for a 6 gallon batch.

Any thoughts on all that? Conflicting views? Am I totally full of sh!+?

 

[Deckers_Beers]

Did you save the yeast for a rebrew? I'd do a 5 gallon rebrew and mash at 152F. Use a strike water calculator so you accurately hit your mash temp.
I'd go with 1.5 qt/lb water/grist for mashing.
Re-pitch your yeast and ferment the same temperature as before and see what happens. I'll speculate that with a good re-pitch of yeast and an accurate mash temp, you'll be able to get closer to your target attenuation.

that would've been a great idea... but I haven't gotten around to harvesting yeast yet. I'm not ready to tackle that... but soon enough! :rockin:

 

[flars]

Ok... so I've been researching around and finding many different DME/water ratios as being recommended. The most frequent I'm seeing is ~ 1/2 - 3/4 cup DME - 1L of water, but also seeing 1/2 cup DME to ~ 2 - 2.75 cups. LOTS of conflicting information...

For the sake of argument, let's figure that 1 cup of DME = ~4 oz (that was based on another HBT thread - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=215615) and after looking at a DME OG calculator, it looks like 1 cup DME - 4 cups water will give you an OG of 1.045, which is just outside of the 1.030-1.040 range I'm seeing everywhere for the starter target.

THEREFORE, I'm guesstimating that 3/4 of DME - 4 cups of water will give you around 1.038 or so. Which I guess is the sweet spot.

I've been using growlers to make starters, so I can easily do a 1.5 liter starter, of about 6.34 cups. I'm thinking of going for 1 cup of DME for that volume for my next brewday this weekend, for a 6 gallon batch.

Any thoughts on all that? Conflicting views? Am I totally full of sh!+?

These are two very good pitch rate/starter calculators.
http://www.yeastcalculator.com/
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
Your starters will be much improved if you use a scale to weigh the DME rather than eyeballing a volume measure. A good scale can be purchased at Walmart for $20. Digital scales also have a gram readout. Comes in handy for breaking up a bulk pack of hops.

There is a stickie in Yeast and Fermentation on a very simple method of harvesting yeast with no rinsing/washing. It works.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

These are two very good pitch rate/starter calculators.
http://www.yeastcalculator.com/
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
Your starters will be much improved if you use a scale to weigh the DME rather than eyeballing a volume measure. A good scale can be purchased at Walmart for $20. Digital scales also have a gram readout. Comes in handy for breaking up a bulk pack of hops.

I did see both of those calculators, but my main issue is that they seem to under-estimate the amount of yeast that would be in a packet. Wyeast says they are good for 6 months, but a 3 month old packet is estimated to have only 47% viability, which seems wrong. But then again every calculator I've seen does that...

I do have a scale, so I figured I'd take your advice. I ended up measuring it in both cups and grams, and 2 cups equaled 300 grams almost exactly. :rockin:

 

[flars]

A while ago I experimented a little bit. I checked the weight of a half cup of DME filled by scooping into the bag, filling the half cup measure with a tablespoon then leveling, and filling with a tablespoon and then tapping to settle the DME followed by leveling. I ended up with three different weights for the half cup.

I always go by weight now whether it is DME for a starter or flour for a batch of bread. Maybe it isn't necessary but when something goes wrong I know how much DME was used. Just my method. I will never say this is the only way to do it.