UK Vs USA Style & Uk brewery Techniques

[nickrjsmith]

Hi,

I browse a lot of US home brew sites... you guys seems to have more members etc. However you all have a distinctive USA twist to their brewing... obviously.

two things come to mind.

a) You guys often say 3-4 weeks primary produces a much better beer. You talk about clarity and the time that yeast have to clean up the flavours of the beer.
Do you think this is so for an English real ale? Or does the beauty of our beer need to contain some of this in the cask?

b) Does anyone know generally how long our UK breweries generally do the primary fermentation for? Do they do a secondary? Or does the secondary happen in the cask?

I know about bright tanks and am not asking about them. Mainly I'm trying to find the perfect time to primary / dry hop in primary / put in cask / condition timetable.

At the moment I try to do this timetable

1) 2 weeks primary, last 5 days including dry hop, last 24-48 hrs gelatine finings.
2) 2 weeks cask with a little priming sugar.

Thanks for your thoughts.


Nick
b) With Engligh real ale / cask ale do you know how long breweries have it in the primary for?

 

[Pappers_]

Hi Nick. I don't know what UK breweries do, but what works best in commercial breweries often isn't what's best for homebrewers. The difference in size, shape and pressure in fermenters makes a significant difference in how yeast act, for example.

 

[hybrid3y3]

a) You guys often say 3-4 weeks primary produces a much better beer. You talk about clarity and the time that yeast have to clean up the flavours of the beer.
Do you think this is so for an English real ale? Or does the beauty of our beer need to contain some of this in the cask?

I'm UK based, and joined here like you because of the activity on the site. I try to leave my beer in the primary for around 30 days, mainly because i'm lazy, or bowing to SWMBO's need to "do something interesting this weekend" so don't always have the time. I noticed something when a starter i made sat for a little longer than intended (3 weeks), the priming wort went crystal clear, it also smelled clean. Now i suppose it all depends on the flavors you want from your beer, but as i prefer my ale to be clean tasting I would say that leaving it in the primary for a couple of weeks won't hurt at all.

b) Does anyone know generally how long our UK breweries generally do the primary fermentation for? Do they do a secondary? Or does the secondary happen in the cask?

Breweries exist to make money, beer being stored is beer that isn't being sold. I would hazard a guess that most standard ales go from boiler to consumer within 2 to 3 weeks. Couple of days in the primary, couple of days in a secondary, into the keg for a bit of conditioning then out of the door and into your pint glass.

=) One of the things i like about homebrew is having the time to experiment, allow the beer to take it's time and it'll be good to you!

 

[ArcaneXor]

Nick,

Can You Brew It on the Brewing Network has done several shows with UK brewers like Meantime and Fullers. Definitely worth a listen to get an idea of the similarities and differences between the brewing traditions!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I'm gonna get my ass chewed for this post by some people here.

I primarily brew ordinary bitter 3-4% ABV. I usually bottle after 2 weeks in primary and I always have a couple of pints from the fermenter while I'm bottling. Obviously it's not clear or carbonated yet, but I enjoy it almost as much as the finished brew. If it does not contain an extraordinary amount of special malts or hops, it tastes pretty much as it will when it has finished conditioning.

Bitter is designed to be drank young, and mine is never older than five weeks from brewing before I've started drinking it. I've been in the US ten years now, so maybe I forget a little how it used to taste in English pubs, but it almost always tastes like a good pub ale to me unless I screwed up the process.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm gonna get my ass chewed for this post by some people here.

I primarily brew ordinary bitter 3-4% ABV. I usually bottle after 2 weeks in primary and I always have a couple of pints from the fermenter while I'm bottling. Obviously it's not clear or carbonated yet, but I enjoy it almost as much as the finished brew. If it does not contain an extraordinary amount of special malts or hops, it tastes pretty much as it will when it has finished conditioning.

2 weeks for such a LOW ABV brew sounds about right... The range usually given is 2-4 weeks on the yeast, with more for BIG brews... So for stuff that's 3-4% (damned close to water BTW) 2 weeks is very possible.

Personally, I've not been brewing anything that's less than about 5.5% ABV... I've made one up to 9.7% with another to 8.1% so far. The 8.1% old ale sat on the yeast for a solid month. Damn smooth even at that point. I decided to do a little experiment and put it on some oak chips for 5.5 weeks... It's since been bottled up and has been carbonating for the past 2 weeks. I plan to chill one down soon to give it a taste. Just need to get someone else to come over to try it, since I used 750ml Belgian bottles for it. Don't think I want to drink an entire bottle by myself... At least not quickly.

 

[nickrjsmith]

Hi,

My thoughts for this cam from two areas.

1) CAMERA say real ales a re cask conditioned, with the sendary fermentation happening in the cask.

2) My king keg says it's designed for secondary fermentation inside the cask.

If this is so, and primary fermentation is over after 3-5 days, I'm wandering if it'd be worthwhile putting in into a keg after 5 days and leaving it to condition for 3 - 4 weeks???

Has anyone done it this way around?


Gnome
---------------
I find that the finings always.... and i mean always make my beer crystal clear.

I don't usually wait for three, four or five in the primary because I have run out.

I also think that Ale should be drunk young... I doubt years ago they left it sitting around for very long.


Arcane
---------------
Thanks for the video links. I'll be sure to check them out. I used to live very close to the fuller brewery so it'll be interesting to see inside... I didn't do home brew when I lived there otherwise I would have done a brewery tour!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I like clear beer too. Whirlfloc gets the job done in that department. As for cask conditioning, if you bottle, then the bottle serves as the cask in our situation.

BTW. I mistyped earlier. I am more in the range of 3.5-4.5%.....Still low, but I get to drink more before I fall over!

 

[nickrjsmith]

Hey... i'm looking for the brewers network shows with fullers etc and can't find them.. any links?

 

[nickrjsmith]

here it is...

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/cybi05-10-10.mp3

 

[Golddiggie]

BTW. I mistyped earlier. I am more in the range of 3.5-4.5%.....Still low, but I get to drink more before I fall over!

Suuuure you did... I might do that, if I weighed all of 80# soaking wet...

I find that one pint of 6.5% ABV (or better) gets me happy. A second pint within 30 minutes gets me REALLY happy ... A third pint within another 20-30 minutes and I'm beyond happy and am looking for a comfy spot... Luckily, most of the time I drink at home...

I don't use those wimpy 12oz bottles for my home brew... 500ml and larger only.

 

[rockfish42]

There's a thread in the yeast/fermentation board right now discussing this and how it effects flavor
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

My thoughts are that a long primary with British yeast is often unnecessary, the buggers floc very quickly after primary fermentation. I lean towards a 2-3 week primary depending on gravity for these beers.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Suuuure you did... I might do that, if I weighed all of 80# soaking wet...

I find that one pint of 6.5% ABV (or better) gets me happy. A second pint within 30 minutes gets me REALLY happy ... A third pint within another 20-30 minutes and I'm beyond happy and am looking for a comfy spot... Luckily, most of the time I drink at home...

I don't use those wimpy 12oz bottles for my home brew... 500ml and larger only.

I use only 1 litre bottles. I drink it because I like the ale. I'm not into pissing contests.

 

[Golddiggie]

Well, with what you're brewing it won't take long for your body to process it into piss.

Of course, 500ml of my brew probably has the same impact as 1L of your brew. Well, except for my bigger brews (bigger to me)...

I typically only have one pint when I'm drinking home brew. Need to make sure I have enough to last me until the next batch is ready for drinking...

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Golddiggie, we are getting OT here.

 

[Pappers_]

I'm gonna get my ass chewed for this post by some people here.

I primarily brew ordinary bitter 3-4% ABV. I usually bottle after 2 weeks in primary and I always have a couple of pints from the fermenter while I'm bottling. Obviously it's not clear or carbonated yet, but I enjoy it almost as much as the finished brew. If it does not contain an extraordinary amount of special malts or hops, it tastes pretty much as it will when it has finished conditioning.

Bitter is designed to be drank young, and mine is never older than five weeks from brewing before I've started drinking it. I've been in the US ten years now, so maybe I forget a little how it used to taste in English pubs, but it almost always tastes like a good pub ale to me unless I screwed up the process.

Hi LGI, its been a while since we've chatted!

Although not english styles, I also enjoy making session beers with lower alcohol levels, I usually call them cream or blonde ales. I too am usually drinking them 5 weeks after brewing, although sometimes it might take another week. Three weeks in primary, one week in bright, one week to bottle condition.

I should brew another Bitter, its been a couple of years!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

FWIW, there are plenty here that typically don't primary that long we just don't post it as much or shout it as loudly. It's rare for me to have any beer primary a full 3 weeks.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

FWIW, there are plenty here that typically don't primary that long we just don't post it as much or shout it as loudly. It's rare for me to have any beer primary a full 3 weeks.

Maybe I'm not gonna get my ass chewed as much as i thought I would!

 

[remilard]

I keg when the beer has cleared. Using 1968 and 1272 (Wyeast) that is somewhere between 5-10 days for an ale. I wait until the weekend so in practice 7 or 14 days.

Lagers are a bit longer.

I think you would find that US craft brewers are very similar to commercial English brewers in contemporary practice. We don't do much open fermentation or Burton unions or Yorkshire squares but then most English beer isn't made that way either.

The difference is in service where we prefer refrigerator temperature and co2 top pressure.

 

[robtotten]

I make a lot of low gravity / session (<4%) brews with English yeasts and drink them at 3 weeks all the time. I keg. Primary for 10-14 days based on how busy am more than anything else, cold crash for 2 days, keg and start drinking within a week. The harshness you get with drinking big / hoppy beers young isn't there at all and it tastes as good at 4 weeks as it does 8 or 10. Not that I ever have kegs that last 10 weeks!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I make a lot of low gravity / session (<4%) brews with English yeasts and drink them at 3 weeks all the time. I keg. Primary for 10-14 days based on how busy am more than anything else, cold crash for 2 days, keg and start drinking within a week. The harshness you get with drinking big / hoppy beers young isn't there at all and it tastes as good at 4 weeks as it does 8 or 10. Not that I ever have kegs that last 10 weeks!

All we need is for enough people to come forward and dispel the aging myth for some session beers and the world will be a better place!

I see rainbows and unicorns in my future.

 

[ArcaneXor]

All we need is for enough people to come forward and dispel the aging myth for some session beers and the world will be a better place!

I agree. It really depends on the situation though - beers brewed with Koelsch yeasts tend to take much longer to clarify than something like 002, for example.
A well-brewed Hefeweizen can be enjoyed a week after brewing (assuming force carbonation), and I don't see any reason why you'd need to wait longer than a couple of weeks to enjoy a mild or ordinary bitter.

Granted, new brewers will often require extended primaries because their process, especially yeast health, aeration and fermentation temperature control, is usually a bit rough around the edges. So I don't disagree with the 3-week primary guideline as advice for the beginner's forum (and I also agree that secondaries are rarely useful). But once your process is optimized, letting a session beer sit for 3 weeks primary plus 3 weeks in the bottle (when it's probably ready to drink after 10 days primary plus 10 days in the bottle) is a waste of time.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I agree. It really depends on the situation though - beers brewed with Koelsch yeasts tend to take much longer to clarify than something like 002, for example.
A well-brewed Hefeweizen can be enjoyed a week after brewing (assuming force carbonation), and I don't see any reason why you'd need to wait longer than a couple of weeks to enjoy a mild or ordinary bitter.

Granted, new brewers will often require extended primaries because their process, especially yeast health, aeration and fermentation temperature control, is usually a bit rough around the edges. So I don't disagree with the 3-week primary guideline as advice for the beginner's forum (and I also agree that secondaries are rarely useful). But once your process is optimized, letting a session beer sit for 3 weeks primary plus 3 weeks in the bottle (when it's probably ready to drink after 10 days primary plus 10 days in the bottle) is a waste of time.

Yup. I suppose it should be stressed that it all depends on the situation. I have my standard bitter down pat. That takes time and experience on just one particular style. For anyone trying new stuff, well, everything changes and time is key. However, we do need to discuss the possibilities here instead of just chanting the same old mantras as though every beer is the same.

 

[Covert]

OK, I guess I'll be the one to drop the turd into the punch bowl.

Why wait so long? I let my bitter sit in the primary for a week, max, but I always make sure to have a lot of good live yeast in there when I pitch. High kreusen starts in a few hours and in about a day and a half the yeast have settled. I give it a week just to make sure, but by now I know my yeast and how they are going to act.

I rack into the corny keg and dry hop in there using one of those hop socks from the homebrew store and inside I put some of those ceramic pie weights to keep it down at the bottom of the keg. Get it nice and cold and put it under whatever pressure the chart says for about 2 volumes. The first pint or two are nasty from the dregs that have settled and the next gallon is hazy. The last 4 gallons are clear and incredible and

I don't wait a month or two or however long. I just keep making more. Once you get the recipe down that you like and have a good yeast it is pretty simple. Enjoy!

 

[nickrjsmith]

I like this... i was beginning to feel that I was rushing things. Here in the UK Real Ale / Bitters are usually around the 4.5 to 5.5 mark. I find that two weeks in the primary is fine with another week for casking.

If I'm honest i try to leave it two weeks in the keg.. but often I'm having a few sample after the first week!

All tastes good to me, and I don't have to wait.

 

[nickrjsmith]

and just for kicks. The next brew I'm going to do is a Parti Gyle with ESB 5.6%ish from the first drawing with a Best Bitter... 4.4%ish from the second.

One big mash into 50% / 50% boil (5 Gal each)

Both primary for 2 weeks then two weeks conditioning with dry hop in the keg.

(got this idea from the fullers pod cast link earlier in this thread)