Lets talk clarifying… again…

[Sballe]

A little frustrated b/c I again have a fruit wine that won’t clear… this time a rhubarb-wine. Been in secondary for about 2 months now.

I added pectinase during primary.

My frustration is - that I never know what causes the cloudiness… so I don’t know what to do about it.!?

Last time I had the issue I tried bentonite. Made no difference at all. Then I tried gelatine. Same result. Then kieselsol - also no effect.

What clearing-fining-strategies do you guys use? Do you know when to use which fining agent? And how do you know??

Any help appreciated! Just trying to get a better understanding of the clarification process …

 

[lumpher]

Do you heat the juice?If so, that can set the pectin. I just let time clarify mine.

 

[fluketamer]

time and bentonite work for me very well and pectinase in the primary like you.

and reracking

 

[bernardsmith]

If the wine is saturated with CO2 the gas will keep all the particulates in suspension. Have you fully degassed?

 

[Sballe]

Do you heat the juice?If so, that can set the pectin. I just let time clarify mine.

No - never heat Anything…

 

[Sballe]

time and bentonite work for me very well and pectinase in the primary like you.

and reracking

And when do you use the bentonite?

 

[Sballe]

If the wine is saturated with CO2 the gas will keep all the particulates in suspension. Have you fully degassed?

I usually degas a couple of times during primary - but after rerack to secondary I don’t touch it anymore; so I don’t risc oxydizing. Do you degas during secondary?

 

[Miraculix]

Degassing during active fermentation is not possible. The yeast constantly produces more co2 so minutes after getting the co2 out, it's back again. But it might be of value to rouse the yeast periodically, which everybody is actually doing when talking about "degassing" in primary.

 

[lumpher]

Don't degas until primary is done. If you degas during primary, it's just as Miraculix says: it will replace the co2 before you're done degassing, even. That could be the problem.

Degas only once, after primary fermentation, and after racking off the lees so you don't just stir them up again. If you do, you just undo the settling already done. Degas around 75 degrees, as that's when the co2 will come out of suspension the easiest. You should also degas before adding any clarifiers, but most importantly, only once and after primary and after racking. You should also only add a clarifier 1 time, as every time you do, it strips a little more character out of the wine.

 

[D the Catastrophist]

First, add pectic enzyme to primary with the water, sugar/honey and fruit. I then let it sit for a day or two before I prep and add the yeast as from what I have read, once fermentation starts the pectic enzyme is less effective.

Secondly, I use a fine mesh brew bag to hold all the fruit in primary so it is easier to pull out the big pieces and even a large amount of the smaller particulate.

Then, time. I let everything bulk age in secondary. Rack one off lees after a month or so. After 6-8 months rack again. When it's time to bottle, I might rack one more time before bottling.

I tried cold racking a apple cider once, but I am not sure it was much quicker or effective than just letting age in secondary. Same with sparkaloid.

Patience is a virtue with wine/cider/mead making, and is probably the hardest part.

 

[Raptor99]

@Sballe What temperature is the wine at? I have learned from experience that pectic enzyme doesn't work as well if it is too cold. I had some pear wine and hard cider that was not clear after several months. The temperature was about 67 degrees F. During the summer the room temperature warmed up to around 75 degrees F. They both cleared within a few weeks.

My takeaway is that pectic enzyme might work better at higher temperatures. Sulfur, bentonite, and tannins can all inhibit pectinase. More info here: Pectic Enzymes: Tips from the Pros - WineMakerMag.com, including this quote:

Bentonite will inhibit enzymes completely so you should remove the wine from bentonite prior to adding, or conversely it could be added once the desired effect has occurred to stop enzymatic activity.

 

[pvtpublic]

Time is your friend when it comes to meads and wines. Shortcutting will not produce exceptional results.

 

[Sballe]

@Sballe What temperature is the wine at? I have learned from experience that pectic enzyme doesn't work as well if it is too cold. I had some pear wine and hard cider that was not clear after several months. The temperature was about 67 degrees F. During the summer the room temperature warmed up to around 75 degrees F. They both cleared within a few weeks.

My takeaway is that pectic enzyme might work better at higher temperatures. Sulfur, bentonite, and tannins can all inhibit pectinase. More info here: Pectic Enzymes: Tips from the Pros - WineMakerMag.com, including this quote:

@Sballe What temperature is the wine at? I have learned from experience that pectic enzyme doesn't work as well if it is too cold. I had some pear wine and hard cider that was not clear after several months. The temperature was about 67 degrees F. During the summer the room temperature warmed up to around 75 degrees F. They both cleared within a few weeks.

My takeaway is that pectic enzyme might work better at higher temperatures. Sulfur, bentonite, and tannins can all inhibit pectinase. More info here: Pectic Enzymes: Tips from the Pros - WineMakerMag.com, including this quote:

It has been at 75+ for several weeks Now - actually somewhat warmer than I like. So don’t think this is an issue…

 

[Sballe]

Thx for all your replies — based on your answers it seems that no one really uses fining agents? I am not trying to short cut and know that time and patience is key … most of the time. I am just trying to figure out why - once in a while - I have a batch that simply will not clear even after months in secondary. And what to do about it…

 

[Sballe]

Degassing during active fermentation is not possible. The yeast constantly produces more co2 so minutes after getting the co2 out, it's back again. But it might be of value to rouse the yeast periodically, which everybody is actually doing when talking about "degassing" in primary.

So you actively degas during secondary? Stirring the batch ?

 

[lumpher]

I rack it to secondary to get it off the lees, add my clarifier, then use my drill attachment to degas just 1 time. If you use the drill attachment method, run it for about 30 seconds each direction 4 or 5 times. It should stop foaming by then. Run it for 30 seconds, stop the drill, reverse it, 30 seconds other direction, stop, reverse for another 30... 4 or 5 minutes total should be plenty. That also makes sure the clarifier is well-mixed..

 

[Sballe]

So you actively degas during secondary? Stirring the batch ?

I usually degas when transferring from primary to secondary. But only then. Trying to avoid oxidation; so rarely touch it at all in secondary - except for retacking once or twice…

 

[Sballe]

I rack it to secondary to get it off the lees, add my clarifier, then use my drill attachment to degas just 1 time. If you use the drill attachment method, run it for about 30 seconds each direction 4 or 5 times. It should stop foaming by then. Run it for 30 seconds, stop the drill, reverse it, 30 seconds other direction, stop, reverse for another 30... 4 or 5 minutes total should be plenty. That also makes sure the clarifier is well-mixed..

Which clarifier ? Always the same? And why that particular one?

 

[lumpher]

I use Super-Kleer. Not cheap, but works very quickly and very well. I've tried several over the years, and Super-Kleer was the most effective for me. Here's a picture of 1 of mine I was drinking tonight:

 

[Sballe]

I use Super-Kleer. Not cheap, but works very quickly and very well. I've tried several over the years, and Super-Kleer was the most effective for me. Here's a picture of 1 of mine I was drinking tonight:View attachment 827955

Can’t get super-kleer where I’m at. Or sparkaloid

 

[Yooper]

I usually degas when transferring from primary to secondary. But only then. Trying to avoid oxidation; so rarely touch it at all in secondary - except for retacking once or twice…

I only stir in primary to get rid of some of the c02 which is poisonous to yeast and to break up the cap. I never do the ‘degas’ thing that is recommended by kit wine instructions, except for maybe twice in the last 25 years when I had a very gassy blackberry wine at more than 9 months and was putting it in the bottle and I think one other time. At 75F, the wine will degas just fine on its own once fermentation ends.

To really use finings, you need to know what may be causing the haze. There are positively charged clearing agents which work for negatively charged particles, and then vice versa. For example, isinglass is positively charged so works to attract and drop out negatively charged particles causing a haze, so it would work great for a haze created by yeast and polyphenols. Kiesesol on the other hand has a negative charge so would work on positively charged hazes. KC finings are so called because they use kiesesol first and then chitosan, so you get negative charged first and then positive charged second for the finings. But KC doesnt’ work well on a pectin haze.

Whew! I guess what I”m saying is to ensure that there isn’t much co2 still in the wine (shouldn’t be), and see what the possilbilties are for a haze that won’t clear. Maybe it’s a haze that will never clear, say you made the wine with hard water or something else but it’s worth trying a few things.

You can’t get sparkelloid or superclear? What can you get?

 

[Sballe]

I only stir in primary to get rid of some of the c02 which is poisonous to yeast and to break up the cap. I never do the ‘degas’ thing that is recommended by kit wine instructions, except for maybe twice in the last 25 years when I had a very gassy blackberry wine at more than 9 months and was putting it in the bottle and I think one other time. At 75F, the wine will degas just fine on its own once fermentation ends.

To really use finings, you need to know what may be causing the haze. There are positively charged clearing agents which work for negatively charged particles, and then vice versa. For example, isinglass is positively charged so works to attract and drop out negatively charged particles causing a haze, so it would work great for a haze created by yeast and polyphenols. Kiesesol on the other hand has a negative charge so would work on positively charged hazes. KC finings are so called because they use kiesesol first and then chitosan, so you get negative charged first and then positive charged second for the finings. But KC doesnt’ work well on a pectin haze.

Whew! I guess what I”m saying is to ensure that there isn’t much co2 still in the wine (shouldn’t be), and see what the possilbilties are for a haze that won’t clear. Maybe it’s a haze that will never clear, say you made the wine with hard water or something else but it’s worth trying a few things.

You can’t get sparkelloid or superclear? What can you get?

I have Bentonite, kieselsol and gelatin. And pectinase obviously.

Yes - I am aware of the whole negative-position thing when using fining agents - and this is my cause of frustration. Because if you add the wrong one - doesn’t this just double the problem?

Say I have a cloudy brew - but don’t know what is causing it. Then I add gelatin, which is positive, and should attract negatively charged particles. But nothing happens. Well then I add bentonite, which attracts positively charged particles. But now my batch is full of positivily charged gelatin which has nowhere to go - so doesn’t the bentonite just attach to the gelatin. And I am back to square one wondering why the hell my brew won’t clear

 

[D the Catastrophist]

Thx for all your replies — based on your answers it seems that no one really uses fining agents

I try to minimize the amount of chemicals and/or filtering I do. Campden, pectic enzyme, acid blend. That is all I add to any wines or ciders. Fermaid gets added to mead. Keep it simple.

A few years before I started making my own wines I had an interesting conversation with the owner of a cidery/Winery in Palisades, Colorado (If you ever have the chance to go out there, take a few days and visit the wineries. They have dozens and the sheer variety will ensure something for everyone). We had visited them the first year they were open and hadn't been super impressed, but this was two years later and we decided to try again. This time we found several wines they now carried we absolutely adored. The owner told us when they first started they heavily filtered, but what they found is that stripped out alot of nuance and flavor from the wines. I keep that conversation in mind when I make anything now. Everyone harps on a crystal clear wine/mead/cider, but I would rather have a cloudy one with a fabulous flavor.


I can give a few suggestions on what my favorites were if anyone cares.
https://www.visitpalisade.com/wineries-to-try

 

[Erik the Awful]

It's shame you can't get sparkolloid. I use bentonite and sparkolloid for clarifying because they're vegan, and I have a vegan friend who drinks my wine. They work fantastically.

If it matters to you, kiesesol and chitosan are not vegan, but from what I hear they're even a little bit better than bentonite and sparkolloid. I haven't used Super-Kleer, and I don't think it's vegan.

I don't think heat is an issue. My wines sit in secondary in my garage in 38°C heat and it doesn't cause cloudiness.

+1 on the patience. My wines usually sit two months between rackings.