Turn anything into a primary fermenter!

[WortMonger]

I ran into these while looking through a catalog and thought to myself, "self, this might be just what the doctor ordered for anyone that needs a little larger fermenter." I mean you could literally turn a large home trash can (not food grade) into a large fermenter just by using your normal trash bags and then putting one of these beauts inside. When your done with the primary just rack out, twist tie the liner, and fill with trash as normal. What do you guys think?
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=110&product%5Fid=14672
I am interested to know if this is a great idea for all you small batchers that maybe "every once in a while" wish you could do a larger batch, but don't want the investment of a larger fermenter. I do two-three "brew days" about three days apart to fill my primary (32 gallon food-grade Rubbermaid Brute trashcan) since I want that much beer but can't brew it all at one time on my equipment. I am just thinking the 5 galloner could do a 1/2 bbl keg the same way I do with nothing more than a large trash can and this liner, and not have a dedicated-clean-fermenter hanging around that only gets used once or twice a year. Just an idea, can't wait to see the responses. Oh, and for all you worried about the trash cans as a dedicated-clean-fermenter, check out the info. I was worried about plastic until I read this.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=24896&product%5Fid=29985
I just put a bulkhead fitting and a spigot on mine and love it, but I use it to capacity a lot. If I didn't.... well that is kinda what this thread is about then, huh?

 

[WortMonger]

I didn't know how to use images, I appologize here are the liners in living color, lol.

and my fermenter

The links are still better for more info, I just feel like an idiot for not knowing how to post pictures until now, lol.

 

[WortMonger]

Almost 50 views and no one has an opinion on this liner? I'm really curious as to what you all think. Please respond someone

 

[rod]

i agree with you - the liner is definitely food grade according to the literature so it would be fine for an extra large fermenter.
remember though - the bigger the volume the harder to keep fermentation temps in check.

 

[WortMonger]

I haven't had a problem with my 32 gallon dedicated Brute yet, but I also haven't done a lager in it. Well, you are the first feedback so lets see what else we can get

 

[FlyGuy]

Very interesting idea, especially for very large batches. This might really work.

But I would have two concerns. First, how hard would it be to rack out of a bag? I can see problems with the bag folding over the end of the cane and stopping the flow (but surely this could be overcome with a bit of ingenuity).

Second, and perhaps most importantly, how much oxygen would diffuse through the liner? I am guessing quite a bit. Not a good thing, potentially.

 

[marosell]

^if its a food grade liner, it can't diffuse any oxygen through it right? Like the difference between the different types of PET plastics

 

[WortMonger]

O2 was my only concern. AFA the liner folding over the cane, I don't think this would be a problem. You would fill it with beer and make it taunt afterwords and tie it tight on the outside of the fermenter. The bottom of the liner is round so if used with no trash bag (not round bottom, lol) I think it would be real easy to rack. With the trash bag, I think one could be careful enough to center the racking cane and modify the diffuser on the racking cane to stand a little taller. Just how tall would require a test batch (well a batch with a little more yeast) and then you would know how much room you really need. I am guessing that most people would move from this large primary to multiple smaller ones, so the last one you filled would have more yeast than the first couple. O2 needs to be looked at, but using it like this (4-7 days as a primary) I don't know if it would even be an issue. Someone that knows please chime in

 

[kappclark]

That's alot of brew to manage

do you use a secondary ?? 6 carboys ? A real chore

If this is vialble, how about 10 gallon size ? I cld see doing that ..

When do you pitch the yeast ?? Aren't you worried abt contamination if it takes a few days to create the wort ...

Do you pitch all the yeast in the beginning, and then just keep adding new batches ?

Would be interested to see how it goes..

 

[WortMonger]

That's alot of brew to manage

It isn't a lot of beer to manage, I used to "manage" 465 gallons at a time. Of course that was in a glycol jacketed conical.

do you use a secondary ?? 6 carboys ? A real chore

My secondary is my serving vessels. I am saying someone would have to find extra carboys etc to secondary in, this is for primary use only (someone would have to come up with their own secondary ideas). AFA a chore, possibly, but you have how many gallons of liquid enjoyment.

If this is vialble, how about 10 gallon size ? I cld see doing that

Not sure what you mean, but if I was stepping up from 5 to 10 I wouldn't bother with this idea, I would just buy another 5 gallon carboy.

When do you pitch the yeast ?? Aren't you worried abt contamination if it takes a few days to create the wort ... Do you pitch all the yeast in the beginning, and then just keep adding new batches ?

Yes, I pitch all the yeast in the beginning. I make a starter for a 11-12 gallon batch (my usual single brew day amount) and use it after brewing the first day. I aerate and it takes off. By day 2-3 of fermenting it is in or just out of high krausen. This is when I brew another 12 gallon batch, cool it in my kettle (I have my own trub catching method), aerate, and add to fermenter. Wait 3 more days, or less and brew again to my wanted capacity. There is the same risk of contamination as the first time I added it to the fermenter (as long as you are as clean as you always are when you brew). It stays a total (from the first brew day to end of 3rd primary ferment) of 9-15 days (depending on gravity and type or beer-I have only done ales so typically it is 10ish days) in the primary and then I transfer to my kegs. I then spund them and wait until maturation is complete and chill and serve. the first couple of pints are Cloudy but after that it is crystal clear(As long as you let the keg sit before serving and never move it until done). The way I see it is no different than people who pitch onto previous batch yeast cakes, only I am leaving the beer in there.

Would be interested to see how it goes..

Me too, thats why I posted this

 

[WortMonger]

Just for easing your worries about contamination, some breweries fill their conies with room for the krausen so it doesn't all blow out. After a few days they brew the same beer and "top off" the conies almost to the top with the new beer. This allows them to mature the beer faster (not sure why) and saves them fermenter space as the newly fermenting beer doesn't krausen as much and they aren't having to use another fermenter. But only if you are making the exact same beer with how ever many conies. I like the idea of faster maturation. I need to find that thread again.

 

[RadicalEd]

You (or anyone else) ever give thought to using these:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3863
as short term conicals, or these:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3969
for longer term conicals?

The first should do as well or better than trash can/plastic bags, and the second option is made of the HDPE, the same as the Better Bottles, and so should be fine for a few months of storage. Both at a fraction of the cost of SS conicals.

Hey, if a BB rep is out there, make some Better Conicals! Problem solved .

 

[david_the_greek]

uh yeah..... that usplastics site just ate up like an hour and a half of my time..... amazing. It seems like every other product has some kind of potential brewing application. I thought the LHBS was a money pit. I sure do hope they either cut ya a deal on shipping or have some kind of Detroit distribution facility because I don't think I could ever afford to ship all the things I want from them.

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

You (or anyone else) ever give thought to using these:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3863
as short term conicals, or these:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3969
for longer term conicals?

The first should do as well or better than trash can/plastic bags, and the second option is made of the HDPE, the same as the Better Bottles, and so should be fine for a few months of storage. Both at a fraction of the cost of SS conicals.

Hey, if a BB rep is out there, make some Better Conicals! Problem solved .

Not quite... HDPE is a 2, PET which is what BB are is a 1... HDPE is like a bottling bucket... The PET's fibers are closer together thus giving a better barrier, the PET is also treated against alcohol and acid wear.... However, the second is HPDE which is like a bottling bucket/ ale pale meaning it would work just as well...

 

[Mike B]

How do you lid this, and still keep it sanitized?

 

[WortMonger]

uh yeah..... that usplastics site just ate up like an hour and a half of my time..... amazing. It seems like every other product has some kind of potential brewing application. I thought the LHBS was a money pit. I sure do hope they either cut ya a deal on shipping or have some kind of Detroit distribution facility because I don't think I could ever afford to ship all the things I want from them.

I know, it is like beer porn. I keep one catalog by the John and usually find something else I didn't think about the first thousand times I went through the catalog. For small stuff shipping isn't that bad, but I wouldn't shuck out the money for larger items.

How do you lid this, and still keep it sanitized?

Well if I am using a brute (since I haven't done this yet) I would simply pop the lid on. If the lid didn't fit (like snap shut) I wouldn't worry to much. I would just make sure and seal it off with wide tape, since it is just acting as a outside-the-fermenter bug shield. Everyone seems to have the concept that your fermenter has to be completely sealed, but have you ever seen an open top fermenter? I would never not use a cover, and bugs would be "my" only worry, but the CO2 produced during fermentation is substantial to blanket the beer and blow out any air left in the fermenter. I am just recommending these liners as a way to use a larger object as a fermenter that after use will go back to what is was before. This way you don't have any "excess" brewing equipment. It is just an idea

 

[RadicalEd]

David, I think that that chain of thought goes through every one of our heads when we visit there . I just bought a few smaller items (which is how I got their catalog...which is how I found the tanks ) and the shipping was very reasonable (in Michigan myself).

Good catch on the PET vs HDPE, though, DeadYeti. I thought it was a little too good to be true! Sigh, probably wouldn't be worth the money if it's just a bigger bottling bucket. Just took another look and there wasn't much in the way of PET products there .

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

David, I think that that chain of thought goes through every one of our heads when we visit there . I just bought a few smaller items (which is how I got their catalog...which is how I found the tanks ) and the shipping was very reasonable (in Michigan myself).

Good catch on the PET vs HDPE, though, DeadYeti. I thought it was a little too good to be true! Sigh, probably wouldn't be worth the money if it's just a bigger bottling bucket. Just took another look and there wasn't much in the way of PET products there .

They had PET products but not big enough for fermenters...

There's nothing wrong with HDPE, i even bought two containers to use as temp control and lager containers (see my thread called No Room For A Carboy?).

I also wonder about the comment in the second link "Maximum specific gravity 1.5." i read that and thought "Man, that's a big beer"...

 

[casper0074]

Wouldn't it be a pain to sanitize the bag? Or would you take your chances that it was already sanitary? Personally, I wouldn't take any chances with that much liquid gold!

 

[WortMonger]

Nope, you'd have to sanitize it someway. I would use hydrogen peroxide ina spray bottle. I have had perfect luck with it as a sanitizer for everything. You do have to let it sit longer than most, but after I dump it I don't worry about the little remaining, cause it turns into water anyways. In no way would you use this any differently than any other fermenter, I really was just worried about the plastic breathing and that is why I posted this thread for imaginary discussion and possibilities. I won't ever have the need as I have a large fermenter already, just a fun idea.

 

[abracadabra]

I bought one of these

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3863


But the top does not seal so I have not used it. I'm thinking if I could use some sort of gasket maybe I could get it to seal up.

Also the female portion of the top is simply fastened to the container with screws (not sure if they are Stainless Steel but I doubt they are) and probably needs to be sealed also. Plus I was thinking that Stainless steel nuts and bolts along with plastic washers would be better that the screws that came with the unit.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

abracadabra, do you have pictures of what your talking about? I am really interested in picking one of these up, but I'm sure SWMBO would love me dropping $120 on somthing it turns out I cant use. If you end up brewing with this, let us al know how it turns out!!

 

[RadicalEd]

Link's busted for me...I wanna see!

 

[abracadabra]

This link works. I copied and pasted from an earlier post not the actual web site. My bad. I also repaired the link posted above.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3863

It'll probably be sometime late this fall before I get around to placing gaskets on the lid and installing an airlock.

I put a pipe, elbow and valve on the bottom and while I was cleaning was when I noticed the top leaked. And not a small trickle it really came pouring out.

I do think it will work but it's gonna take more work than I originally imagined.

But yeah I'll definately post my results when I do get around to trying it out.

 

[FSR402]

This link works. I copied and pasted from an earlier post not the actual web site. My bad. I also repaired the link posted above.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...usplastic&category_name=20726&product_id=3863

It'll probably be sometime late this fall before I get around to placing gaskets on the lid and installing an airlock.

I put a pipe, elbow and valve on the bottom and while I was cleaning was when I noticed the top leaked. And not a small trickle it really came pouring out.

I do think it will work but it's gonna take more work than I originally imagined.

But yeah I'll definately post my results when I do get around to trying it out.

looking at the pics of it I would think that if you welded som loops to the frame and then run a bar thru thos loops over the fermenter lid and then had a treaded post pushing on the lid and the bar it would hold the lid just fine. Add in a rubber gasket and you should be all set.

 

[abracadabra]

looking at the pics of it I would think that if you welded som loops to the frame and then run a bar thru thos loops over the fermenter lid and then had a treaded post pushing on the lid and the bar it would hold the lid just fine. Add in a rubber gasket and you should be all set.

The lid is a 2 piece unit, a treaded female section is fastened to the top with screws, Then the treaded male section screws into the female.

I don't think it's a matter of pressing the lid down.

And it seems to leak at both where the female is fastened to the tank and where the male and female join.

I'm pretty sure that a small rubber gasket like one used as weather stripping for a door between the female section and the tank, plus one in the groove of the treaded portion of the female section would seal it up. At least to the point where it would make a decent primary.

 

[RadicalEd]

I'm definitely interested in the results, but aren't they only Medium DPE? IIRC what we want is the High DPE, to avoid oxygenation. That's what the brew buckets are made of.

Then again, if it's just gonna primary for a couple weeks before transferring to secondary, then I imagine that oxygen permeability shouldn't matter too much...

 

[Jaybird]

, I just feel like an idiot for not knowing how to post pictures .

WOW I still dont know how LOL LOL LOL LOL
JJ

 

[WortMonger]

Yeah, I had to go to the test forum to try some things out. Finally, I know some things on this community. Now to figure out the other communities I am on, lol.

 

[Bellybuster]

why even be concened about a seal on the lid??????

 

[abracadabra]

I'm definitely interested in the results, but aren't they only Medium DPE? IIRC what we want is the High DPE, to avoid oxygenation. That's what the brew buckets are made of.

Then again, if it's just gonna primary for a couple weeks before transferring to secondary, then I imagine that oxygen permeability shouldn't matter too much...

It could very well be MDPE I don't know the seller wasn't to much help they said they though it was HDPE. But it looks more like MDPE to me. It could be LDPE for all I know it's not marked.

I would not leave it in there more than a week .

Bellybuster,
I'm not so much concerned with airtight fit of the lid as I am in knowing when the fermentation has subsided so I can transfer to the secondaries. And with a plastic fermenter I want to transfer ASAP. If the lid leaks the airlock might not be a good indication of fermentation activity. With a good seal I could time the bubbles or lack there of coming out of the airlock. And that just seems easier than taking a gravity reading.