Trying to simulate British real ale...

[Northern_Brewer]

Aside from the lower carbonation and natural carb/conditioning (which may or may not make a flavor difference vs force carb)

Oh it does make a difference - you get a finer carbonation that is less "intrusive" and more persistent (compare the flabby big bubbles in Coke with the fine mousse of naturally-conditioned champagne). But it's not just the bubble size and fizziness, perhaps the main problem with kegging British styles is that the actual taste of the carbonic acid from excess carbonation ruins the delicate balance of the beer. Nitro helps with some of that but doesn't solve it.

The very slight oxidation you get in cask can also be beneficial. It tends to meld the flavours together to form a harmonious whole. Sometimes you don't want that, in the same way that a fruit salad benefits from being able to taste the burst of a grape or the discrete taste of a pineapple chunk, but for traditional bitter you generally do. Oxidation can knock a bit of a flat spot in beers that depend heavily on modern fruit-flavoured hops, it really depends on the beer. One of the nice things about the modern beer scene in Britain is that you occasionally get the chance to taste the same beer on keg and cask (and sometimes on bottle and/or can) - and I can safely say that I've had beers that were best suited to each of the four main formats - and it's not always the one you think it will be!

As has been mentioned, sparklers are a regional thing and really need beers to be brewed specifically for them, to allow for some of the flavour being knocked out by the sparkler. But even up north you'll find CAMRA festivals serving cask on gravity, which obviously requires a lot less plumbing and is something to perhaps consider, particularly since North American brewers are convinced that bitter has 5+% crystal which is far more of a southern thing. If you insist on making bitter with >5% crystal, you don't need a sparkler.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

How do you go about ordering a vault yeast? Can I order direct through White Labs website? Or do I have to shop around the online vendors?

In general the actual Vault strains have to be ordered via the White Labs website where they wait until they've got enough orders to make it worth producing them, and then every few years they do a mass release of all the Vault strains (as they did last summer).

The three seasonal releases per quarter will be available from better White Lab stockists but can usually be ordered by any of them.

WLP041 is a useful one as it's a core strain for White Labs and despite the name is British - it's not flashy but has an easy drinkability to it which is definitely typical of British beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In Britain itself, there has lately been a massive shift to nitro "smooth" beers and even full on, carbonated keg beer

Not really lately - there was a huge fad for Big Beer putting everything on nitro some 25-30 years ago - nitro lager, "creamflow" ales, all sorts. But aside from Guinness and a couple of bottom-end macro bitters it's pretty much disappeared from the mass market "lately".

And yes there is a lot more keg ale than there ever was - but it's for styles following the US model, there's very little "traditional" British beer being served that way. In fact traditional Fuggles 'n' Goldings styles are arguably more associated with cask than ever before - and you could say that's part of their problem.

 

[J_Flint]

Oh it does make a difference - you get a finer carbonation that is less "intrusive" and more persistent (compare the flabby big bubbles in Coke with the fine mousse of naturally-conditioned champagne). But it's not just the bubble size and fizziness, perhaps the main problem with kegging British styles is that the actual taste of the carbonic acid from excess carbonation ruins the delicate balance of the beer. Nitro helps with some of that but doesn't solve it.

The very slight oxidation you get in cask can also be beneficial. It tends to meld the flavours together to form a harmonious whole. Sometimes you don't want that, in the same way that a fruit salad benefits from being able to taste the burst of a grape or the discrete taste of a pineapple chunk, but for traditional bitter you generally do. Oxidation can knock a bit of a flat spot in beers that depend heavily on modern fruit-flavoured hops, it really depends on the beer. One of the nice things about the modern beer scene in Britain is that you occasionally get the chance to taste the same beer on keg and cask (and sometimes on bottle and/or can) - and I can safely say that I've had beers that were best suited to each of the four main formats - and it's not always the one you think it will be!

As has been mentioned, sparklers are a regional thing and really need beers to be brewed specifically for them, to allow for some of the flavour being knocked out by the sparkler. But even up north you'll find CAMRA festivals serving cask on gravity, which obviously requires a lot less plumbing and is something to perhaps consider, particularly since North American brewers are convinced that bitter has 5+% crystal which is far more of a southern thing. If you insist on making bitter with >5% crystal, you don't need a sparkler.

So you think that natural conditioning creates finer bubbles? And you're saying that bitter should not contain more than 5% crystal? Care to share a good recipe? I always have trouble choosing one and would much prefer a true British model, than my own or someone else's Americanized version.

I've always had trouble believing that just a few ounces has much an effect on the resultant flavor. Like...at 5% does that even contribute anything to the beer?

I get what you're saying about excess carbonation ruining delicate flavors. But if a British style were kegged, and force carbed to an appropriate level, say one ish volumes, wouldn't that be okay? After having trouble with my British yeasts producing odd flavors from bottle conditioning I just worry that another batch will end up cruddy.

Also if you could choose any widely available yeast for a good British ale, what would it be? I've heard good things about WLP023, WY1469, Wlp002 which I've used a lot and am only marginally happy with, and you mentioned WLP041 which I've been afraid to try because of negative things I've heard. But you've got me intrigued now because I am fascinated to hear what British folks have to say about brewing their own beers.

 

[ba-brewer]

How do you go about ordering a vault yeast? Can I order direct through White Labs website? Or do I have to shop around the online vendors?

The vault is on hiatus, but there are still seasonal vault releases.
Look at your LHBS that carries seasonal or who will order it for you, but you can also order direct from whitelabs.

Click on order online from the top of the main menu.
Click on yeast
Click on vault
click on yeast
Click on check available

WLP006 says out of stock so maybe main page is for last year or they have not done a production run yet.
You can email the customer service department and they will tell if WLP006 is going to into production soon.

I live in California so shipping is not bad for 2 day(was overnight), less than $20, but I order a few strains to make it feel less painful. The good thing is the stuff you get from ordering direct is fresh.

edit: I see wlp030 shows available, some people have had good luck with that one. It has seemed clean for me in the past and have not had consistent attenuations but that could be my personal problem. I have a batch with wlp030 conditioning now but have tasted it yet.
edit: rechecked wlp030 and it shows available but not in homebrew packages, sorry

 

[Schlenkerla]

Oh it does make a difference - you get a finer carbonation that is less "intrusive" and more persistent (compare the flabby big bubbles in Coke with the fine mousse of naturally-conditioned champagne). But it's not just the bubble size and fizziness, perhaps the main problem with kegging British styles is that the actual taste of the carbonic acid from excess carbonation ruins the delicate balance of the beer. Nitro helps with some of that but doesn't solve it.

The very slight oxidation you get in cask can also be beneficial. It tends to meld the flavours together to form a harmonious whole. Sometimes you don't want that, in the same way that a fruit salad benefits from being able to taste the burst of a grape or the discrete taste of a pineapple chunk, but for traditional bitter you generally do. Oxidation can knock a bit of a flat spot in beers that depend heavily on modern fruit-flavoured hops, it really depends on the beer. One of the nice things about the modern beer scene in Britain is that you occasionally get the chance to taste the same beer on keg and cask (and sometimes on bottle and/or can) - and I can safely say that I've had beers that were best suited to each of the four main formats - and it's not always the one you think it will be!

As has been mentioned, sparklers are a regional thing and really need beers to be brewed specifically for them, to allow for some of the flavour being knocked out by the sparkler. But even up north you'll find CAMRA festivals serving cask on gravity, which obviously requires a lot less plumbing and is something to perhaps consider, particularly since North American brewers are convinced that bitter has 5+% crystal which is far more of a southern thing. If you insist on making bitter with >5% crystal, you don't need a sparkler.

You're suggesting for color to use invert over crystal. Right?

 

[Robert65]

For color per se, the British brewers conventionally use brewers caramel, aka class III ammonia caramel. It's available in homebrew quantities from British homebrew retailers if you can swallow the shipping, but only by the drum over here. (Standard burnt sugar caramel, due to its charge, is not stable in beer. It will complex with proteins and both will precipitate.) Invert color (really flavor) is chosen to suit the beer, but not necessarily expected to suffice for color adjustment. Although it will add a bit of flavor unlike brewers caramel, you can try Sinamar as the least flavor-intrusive colorant we can usually access.

FWIW here's my favorite British pale ale template: Chevallier pale malt, 15% no. 1 or 2 invert, stodgy English hops (you know the usual suspects) all in at copper up.

If you must use a modern malt (and in the scheme of things, MO is quite modern,) yes, even 1-2% light crystal can correct the malt flavor. It should be used to accent the sweetness of the pale malt, not to make any identifiable contribution of its own.

 

[J_Flint]

For color per se, the British brewers conventionally use brewers caramel, aka class III ammonia caramel. It's available in homebrew quantities from British homebrew retailers if you can swallow the shipping, but only by the drum over here. (Standard burnt sugar caramel, due to its charge, is not stable in beer. It will complex with proteins and both will precipitate.) Invert color (really flavor) is chosen to suit the beer, but not necessarily expected to suffice for color adjustment. Although it will add a bit of flavor unlike brewers caramel, you can try Sinamar as the least flavor-intrusive colorant we can usually access.

FWIW here's my favorite British pale ale template: Chevallier pale malt, 15% no. 1 or 2 invert, stodgy English hops (you know the usual suspects) all in at copper up.

If you must use a modern malt (and in the scheme of things, MO is quite modern,) yes, even 1-2% light crystal can correct the malt flavor. It should be used to accent the sweetness of the pale malt, not to make any identifiable contribution of its own.

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

 

[Qhrumphf]

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

Invert provides a LOT of character, especially the darker inverts.

 

[Robert65]

Why choose the invert in the first place. From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

Both because of the base, raw cane sugar, and the process of manufacturing the Invert, it does indeed contribute rich, luscious flavors quite unlike either table sugar or the raw cane sugar it is made from. It's sort of the magical, secret ingredient for getting an authentic flavor. I wouldn't have believed it until I took the trouble. There are indeed British beers that use less flavorful sugars, such even glucose, to lighten the beer (AFAIK even the revered Marston's Pedigree is in this camp.) But Invert is its own thing, long considered not an adjunct, but an essential fermentable in its own right alongside malt.

 

[J_Flint]

Both because of the base, raw cane sugar, and the process of manufacturing the Invert, it does indeed contribute rich, luscious flavors quite unlike either table sugar or the raw cane sugar it is made from. It's sort of the magical, secret ingredient for getting an authentic flavor. I wouldn't have believed it until I took the trouble. There are indeed British beers that use less flavorful sugars, such even glucose, to lighten the beer (AFAIK even the revered Marston's Pedigree is in this camp.) But Invert is its own thing, long considered not an adjunct, but an essential fermentable in its own right alongside malt.

Okay well I guess I'll have to give that a shot then. Also...whatchu mean by copper up? Flame out?

 

[Robert65]

Okay well I guess I'll have to give that a shot then. Also...whatchu mean by copper up? Flame out?

"Copper up" is Brit speak for start of boil. Sorry, I was caught up in the British spirit! I often add the hops as FWH.

 

[J_Flint]

"Copper up" is Brit speak for start of boil. Sorry, I was caught up in the British spirit! I often add the hops as FWH.

Ah I see. Okay that makes more sense. What color invert would you be using for most typical bitters?

Also are you implying you wouldn't be using any late hop additions?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

FYI. - This might be better than plagerizing.

Let me know if you can't make out any of the text.

 

[Robert65]

Ah I see. Okay that makes more sense. What color invert would you be using for most typical bitters?

Also are you implying you wouldn't be using any late hop additions?

Anything from no. 1 to no. 3 depending on what I had on hand, and it's a flexible, stylistic choice anyway. If I'm going for something very traditional, I probably wouldn't use a late hop addition. Late hop character is really an American, or more recently adopted British, characteristic.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Preceding three pages....

Should have shared these first.

 

[J_Flint]

FYI. - This might be better than plagerizing.

Let me know if you can't make out any of the text.

View attachment 662926View attachment 662927View attachment 662928View attachment 662929View attachment 662930

I absolutely could. Thank you for posting. I may have to find that book. Looks like a good one!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Ah I see. Okay that makes more sense. What color invert would you be using for most typical bitters?

Also are you implying you wouldn't be using any late hop additions?

J_Flint. - See post#23 in this thread. It's simple-stupid to make #1 thru #4.

You've reminded my to get my one perlick off for the stout and to make a few fresh inverts.

I like using Demerara.... It's kind of rummy like in taste.

 

[J_Flint]

Anything from no. 1 to no. 3 depending on what I had on hand, and it's a flexible, stylistic choice anyway. If I'm going for something very traditional, I probably wouldn't use a late hop addition. Late hop character is really an American, or more recently adopted British, characteristic.

So if not using any late additions, does hop variety matter much less since flavor nuances would be less detectable? I know there are differing opinions on the flavor contribution of a "bittering" hop addition.

 

[Robert65]

So if not using any late additions, does hop variety matter much less since flavor nuances would be less detectable? I know there are differing opinions on the flavor contribution of a "bittering" hop addition.

This can be a great way of learning not to believe the myth that hop character is lost when added early on. Flavor and aroma do persist. You'd be surprised how many hoppy German beers, for example, have only one, early addition (spoiler: most of them) and the same is true of British beers. Historically, even when brewers used multiple additions, this was in the days of unfortunately long boils, and rarely was there an addition in the last hour.

 

[J_Flint]

This can be a great way of learning not to believe the myth that hop character is lost when added early on. Flavor and aroma do persist. You'd be surprised how many hoppy German beers, for example, have only one, early addition (spoiler: most of them) and the same is true of British beers. Historically, even when brewers used multiple additions, this was in the days of unfortunately long boils, and rarely was there an addition in the last hour.

Very interesting! I always doubted that ALL of the flavor and aroma was lost. I'm obviously not expecting it to be an American hop bomb or anything using that method.

Well I think I've got a good handle on what I wanna do on my next bitter. I've got a ton of fuggles on hand already. Do you think that would be just as good as some EKG?

 

[Robert65]

I love Fuggles. I know they have haters, but I'm sure not one!

 

[Schlenkerla]

I love Fuggles. I know they have haters, but I'm sure not one!

That and East Kent Golding. I made a strong bitter two months ago with 4 oz of hops. 2 Bittering, 2 late. Using both types of hops, EKG were the late.

I could taste a cantaloupe mellon like aroma/flavor. I loved it.

 

[ba-brewer]

FWIW here's my favorite British pale ale template: Chevallier pale malt, 15% no. 1 or 2 invert, stodgy English hops (you know the usual suspects) all in at copper up.

If you must use a modern malt (and in the scheme of things, MO is quite modern,) yes, even 1-2% light crystal can correct the malt flavor. It should be used to accent the sweetness of the pale malt, not to make any identifiable contribution of its own.

I'm not sure about other vendors but I think the current crisp Chevallier may be an acquired taste. There seems to be too much of a raw cereal flavor for me. I'm sticking with crisp #19 maris otter malt.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Some hops seem to carry their character over 60 mins more than others. The new world hops seem to the least (except for classic C hops- CTZ and Chinook carry more over 60 mins than anything I can think of)

I love Progress (similar to Fuggles, but heavier on the tobacco and lower on the topsoil note many find objectionable) or Bramling Cross in a Bitter. Challenger is one of my all time favs.

Most of my Bitters get #2 invert or periodically #3. #3-4 is Mild, Porter, Stout (the latter two tylically #4). If I'm doing a Golden Ale, a very light Bitter, or a Pale Mild, then I might go down to #1.

If you can't get brewers caramel (good luck stateside), Sinamar does the trick. I use it in my Milds to get em nice and dark.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You're suggesting for color to use invert over crystal. Right?

Nooooooooo!
Don't use crystal malt to adjust colour in British beers
Don't use invert
Don't adjust colour with anything except brewer's caramel or black malt.
Or just leave it, colour is not critical (qv Boddies).

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

As discussed, it's not mandatory, but it does have a distinct flavour (particularly in darker versions) but even if it was flavourless it still has a role to play in providing "easy" fermentables to dry out a beer to balance out crystal (and the lower attenuation of the more flavourful British yeasts). Going 1:1 invert : crystal is a good place to start but it does come down to personal taste - and in the UK, regional taste. It's worth noting that there's been a general trend among commercial breweries towards all-grain in recent years, encouraged by CAMRA, but that's not to say the use of sugar isn't widespread.

So you think that natural conditioning creates finer bubbles?

Definitely - certainly as they typically present at the bar.

And you're saying that bitter should not contain more than 5% crystal? Care to share a good recipe?

I've always had trouble believing that just a few ounces has much an effect on the resultant flavor. Like...at 5% does that even contribute anything to the beer?

Oh definitely, and the difference between 5% and 8% is significant. But it is the sort of thing that varies regionally and also between breweries, those kind of decisions contribute to house style. Fuller's use 7.2% light crystal (there's a homebrew version of ESB later in that thread, from which you could derive Pride as they're partigyled). But that's about as high as I'd go without any sugar to counteract the sweetness; Yorkshire bitters are more like 2-3% and Boddies has none. So it depends what you're going for. But as a first go I'd definitely aim for a best strength of 4.2-4.4% - it's even tougher to balance everything below 4% - and have a nice pale malt with mebbe 5% crystal, 5% invert #1/golden syrup (or just say 3% crystal on its own), 1.5% chocolate malt - and plenty of gypsum.

I get what you're saying about excess carbonation ruining delicate flavors. But if a British style were kegged, and force carbed to an appropriate level, say one ish volumes, wouldn't that be okay? After having trouble with my British yeasts producing odd flavors from bottle conditioning I just worry that another batch will end up cruddy.

It's better but still not the same.

if you could choose any widely available yeast for a good British ale, what would it be? I've heard good things about WLP023, WY1469, Wlp002 which I've used a lot and am only marginally happy with, and you mentioned WLP041 which I've been afraid to try because of negative things I've heard. But you've got me intrigued now because I am fascinated to hear what British folks have to say about brewing their own beers.

WLP002 is too dull. I'm still working my way through some of the mainstream homebrew yeasts, partly through lack of brewtime, partly because I get to play with "real" yeast from cask dregs and some Brewlab strains. So I've had 1469 sitting in the fridge for ages, but people seem to like it, as I say I enjoyed my one brew with WLP041, WLP028 is popular here but is a bit more neutral, a lot of the Vault British yeasts are worth a go as and when they come out (although this year is not a great year for White Lab seasonals) - some of the reviews of WLP038 Manchester sound very promising. Having said that there's a lot of smaller breweries here just using S-04 and Nottingham commercially, although not always with the best results... I've not tried it but others on HBT report that Imperial A09 Pub is has the same marmalade character as real Fuller's yeast has (but 002 and 1968 don't), which sounds promising.

It's worth pointing out that the main British beer thread on HBT is at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/ - there's 2000 posts there!

 

[J_Flint]

@Northern_Brewer would you condition a keg with priming sugar then, to better represent the true British beers? Or would you just go ahead and bottle at that point?

Also-could you point me to a good, traditional dark midd recipe? I see in the Favorite English Recipe thread you mention a few times what not to put into the recipe for it to be representative of the true style, but you don't go into much detail otherwise.

 

[Robert65]

If you want to really go down the rabbit hole on real, historical and traditional British recipes, you'll want to look into Ron Pattinson's blog, Shut up about Barclay Perkins, and his books. He has researched, transcribed, deciphered, and adapted thousands upon thousands of old brewery logs, and, as a bonus for you on the subject of dark mild, it's his personal preference and as such gets plenty of attention.

 

[Wayne1]

You can find all of Ron Pattinson's "Let's Brew" Historical Homebrew recipes here.
http://www.unholymess.com/blog/lets-brew/comment-page-1

 

[ba-brewer]

A dark mild recipe
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/07/lets-brew-wednesday-1952-lees-best-mild.html

Edit: have not brewed it but had it bookmarked to give it a try someday.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Nooooooooo!
Don't use crystal malt to adjust colour in British beers
Don't use invert
Don't adjust colour with anything except brewer's caramel or black malt.
Or just leave it, colour is not critical (qv Boddies).



As discussed, it's not mandatory, but it does have a distinct flavour (particularly in darker versions) but even if it was flavourless it still has a role to play in providing "easy" fermentables to dry out a beer to balance out crystal (and the lower attenuation of the more flavourful British yeasts). Going 1:1 invert : crystal is a good place to start but it does come down to personal taste - and in the UK, regional taste. It's worth noting that there's been a general trend among commercial breweries towards all-grain in recent years, encouraged by CAMRA, but that's not to say the use of sugar isn't widespread.



Definitely - certainly as they typically present at the bar.



Oh definitely, and the difference between 5% and 8% is significant. But it is the sort of thing that varies regionally and also between breweries, those kind of decisions contribute to house style. Fuller's use 7.2% light crystal (there's a homebrew version of ESB later in that thread, from which you could derive Pride as they're partigyled). But that's about as high as I'd go without any sugar to counteract the sweetness; Yorkshire bitters are more like 2-3% and Boddies has none. So it depends what you're going for. But as a first go I'd definitely aim for a best strength of 4.2-4.4% - it's even tougher to balance everything below 4% - and have a nice pale malt with mebbe 5% crystal, 5% invert #1/golden syrup (or just say 3% crystal on its own), 1.5% chocolate malt - and plenty of gypsum.



It's better but still not the same.



WLP002 is too dull. I'm still working my way through some of the mainstream homebrew yeasts, partly through lack of brewtime, partly because I get to play with "real" yeast from cask dregs and some Brewlab strains. So I've had 1469 sitting in the fridge for ages, but people seem to like it, as I say I enjoyed my one brew with WLP041, WLP028 is popular here but is a bit more neutral, a lot of the Vault British yeasts are worth a go as and when they come out (although this year is not a great year for White Lab seasonals) - some of the reviews of WLP038 Manchester sound very promising. Having said that there's a lot of smaller breweries here just using S-04 and Nottingham commercially, although not always with the best results... I've not tried it but others on HBT report that Imperial A09 Pub is has the same marmalade character as real Fuller's yeast has (but 002 and 1968 don't), which sounds promising.

It's worth pointing out that the main British beer thread on HBT is at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/ - there's 2000 posts there!

The cask beer info I posted earlier by Jeff Alworth cited Craig Bennet head brewer from Greene King as saying its 1:1 sub invert for crystal.

Crystal without a doubt does two things adds flavor and color.

In your comment you're basically saying it's for mainly for taste and color just comes with it... correct?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The cask beer info I posted earlier by Jeff Alworth cited Craig Bennet head brewer from Greene King as saying its 1:1 sub invert for crystal.

Crystal without a doubt does two things adds flavor and color.

In your comment you're basically saying it's for mainly for taste and color just comes with it... correct?

Exactly - normally you'd be adding a dedicated colouring agent like black malt or brewers caramel so the colour added by the crystal/invert just means a bit less caramel/black.

As an aside, I doubt many Brits would use Greene King as their benchmark for anything much, they are the BMC of cask ale. But his 9:5 ratio of crystal:sugar is typical of southern beers (and Fuller's are now just 7.2% light crystal with no sugar), compared to perhaps 1:2 in Yorkshire and 0 crystal in some Manchester beers. It's all part of that complex mix of tradition, regional tastes and house styles.

I've got a ton of fuggles on hand already. Do you think that would be just as good as some EKG?

They're both classic, and again it comes down to local tastes and brewer's preference. Personally I'm not a big Fuggles fan and adore Goldings - plus I have connections to Kent so I have a house rule that every beer I make always has some EKG in it. Call it personal terroir.

Personally I'd say that the more crystally southern beers can take more Fuggles than the drier northern ones, but there's plenty of counterexamples.
​

@Northern_Brewer would you condition a keg with priming sugar then, to better represent the true British beers? Or would you just go ahead and bottle at that point?

Personally I bottle because I just don't drink that much, but traditionally British homebrewers used to condition in pressure barrels for draught dispense by gravity, with handpulls as the gold standard. There's more keg in homebrew these days, reflecting commercial beer, but it tends not to be used for traditional British styles. But for instance LHBS typically have a pressure keg of beer in the backroom to show off their wares.

Also-could you point me to a good, traditional dark midd recipe? I see in the Favorite English Recipe thread you mention a few times what not to put into the recipe for it to be representative of the true style, but you don't go into much detail otherwise.

Yeah, just read some of Ron's stuff. I must admit I've had my eye on one of those Lees Best Mild recipes, albeit probably one of the ones from slightly later in the 1950s - see this table : https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/08/lees-best-mild-1950-1963.html (you may have to zoom out the page to see the whole table (the right column is "Total"), and then copy and paste it to a spreadsheet to read it more easily). Although the whole idea of a Best Mild is a bit of a short-lived aberration. Personally I like a slightly stronger mild, back up in that best sort of ABV range, at some point I'll have to brew one - with a bit less crap in it than was typical in the dark days of the 1950s.

 

[J_Flint]

@Northern_Brewer
That's kind of what I'm after! I mild without all the adjuncts or special malts I see everywhere. I sort of thought that historically they would be very some beers, but never had a good understanding. I am only recently learning that the BJCP guides are quite flawed and are merely US adopted and reimagined concepts of what once was.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

And BJCP 2015 is a whole heap closer to reality than the quite fantastical 2008 version....

As far as the mild goes, I'd scan that table of the Lees bests, which are somewhat less full of crap than some, and figure out an "average" version pandering to your own particular prejudices. Personally I'd go for pale malt as the base with probably more brown than they used, bit of crystal and chocolate so it's heading a bit in the London porter direction because I really like London porter It's kinda hard to avoid a lot of sugar of some form, I'd drop the maize (again, personal) and so on.

Then look at some of Ron's detailed recipes at https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Lees to get an idea of process details.

 

[J_Flint]

And BJCP 2015 is a whole heap closer to reality than the quite fantastical 2008 version....

As far as the mild goes, I'd scan that table of the Lees bests, which are somewhat less full of crap than some, and figure out an "average" version pandering to your own particular prejudices. Personally I'd go for pale malt as the base with probably more brown than they used, bit of crystal and chocolate so it's heading a bit in the London porter direction because I really like London porter It's kinda hard to avoid a lot of sugar of some form, I'd drop the maize (again, personal) and so on.

Then look at some of Ron's detailed recipes at https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Lees to get an idea of process details.

When using a large percentage of invert is it okay to add to the boil? Will this cause problems with the fermentation. I've gathered that much more than 10% can cause the yeast to get lazy and stall out.

 

[ross.filipek]

For color per se, the British brewers conventionally use brewers caramel, aka class III ammonia caramel. It's available in homebrew quantities from British homebrew retailers if you can swallow the shipping, but only by the drum over here.

Late to this thread, but I've got a question for @Northern_Brewer or anyone else who's used brewer's caramel.

I picked up a bottle of the Brupaks 33,000 EBC caramel a while back and have experimented with adding it during the boil for some recipes and at racking for others. In either case, the color adjustment was great, but it also seemed to throw a significant haze into the beer (compared to what I get sans caramel). Really quite turbid. And the beer didn't seem to clear, even after months of cellaring.

So, I'm trying to figure out if this is a typical result of using caramel, or if I've got some process issue to correct. I didn't use any post-boil finings, but that will be my next test.

Normally I'd just use black malt for color, but I brew a lot of Ron Pattinson's recipes, and those tend to call for caramel.