Trying to bounce back from two dumpers..

[Dabba]

I messed up and let two lagers sit too long on the yeast cake.. and didnt lager them so they turned out to be trash after I kegged them. They did help me figure out kegging though so...

Today my buddy came over and we brewed 2 5gal batches side by side to try to play catchup for my mess up. I'm brewing a Dunkle again and now a Schwarzbier which are happily sitting in my keg fridge at about 58F. I did have to modify one of my airlocks because of the headspace on the fridge but.. glad I checked it now rather than find out weeks from now....

Odd things I did noticed though. My OG came in about 10 points higher on my dunkle, and the immersion wort chiller seemed to work not much faster than an ice bath so I use surprised. I did not have a very fast flow going through the chiller as I had the exhaust end just dumping into the sink next to the chiller but it was coming out cool though so. Weird

 

[day_trippr]

Did you stir the wort or grab the chiller and move it around in your kettle?
Relative motion will dramatically improve thermal transfer efficiency. Next brew, put your hand on the last bit of copper before the outflow after leaving everything sitting still for a bit, then either stir the wort or move the chiller around and see how rapdily the outflow temperature increases.

Can't explain the dunkle but it sounds like a high-class problem

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry about your Lagers not turning out, but I doubt letting them sit on yeast was the culprit, unless it was for several months at warm temps.

Most Lagers can be consumed fine after fermentation is done, without extended lagering, if one doesn't mind the cloudiness from suspended yeast, and perhaps a little bit of flavors you normally wouldn't find after 6 weeks of cold conditioning.

Can you describe the off flavors that made you decide to dump them?

You didn't mention how you brewed the beers. Extracts, all grain, water source, yeast, etc.

 

[Dabba]

Honestly I don't remember if I used extract or BIAB. It was toward the beginning of the year and they sat in my basement. I fermented at about low 50sF in an ice bath and then let them sit in my basement for months at 60-65F. They kind of had a skunked stale taste. I'm not sure what cardboard tastes like for oxidation but they werent sitting in the sun either so. Either way I did not give them the proper attention.

About lagering though. I do want to lager but not for 20 months. What do most consider the best/shortest amount of time to clear up the beer and flavors? Obviously the longer the better but is there a point where it's just diminishing returns?

Also Day_trippr... next time ill stir it thats a good point. I was worried about sanitation.

 

[MrPowers]

About lagering though. I do want to lager but not for 20 months. What do most consider the best/shortest amount of time to clear up the beer and flavors? Obviously the longer the better but is there a point where it's just diminishing returns?

Honestly, if you do everything right earlier in the process (ie. Have a good recipe, good brewing process, and pitch enough healthy yeast) then the only real purpose of lagering is to clear the beer. That can be done in as little as a couple weeks at 30F. After that, you hit the point of diminishing returns where longer lagering isn’t really helping the beer much anymore.

 

[IslandLizard]

Honestly I don't remember if I used extract or BIAB. It was toward the beginning of the year and they sat in my basement. I fermented at about low 50sF in an ice bath and then let them sit in my basement for months at 60-65F. They kind of had a skunked stale taste. I'm not sure what cardboard tastes like for oxidation but they werent sitting in the sun either so. Either way I did not give them the proper attention.

About lagering though. I do want to lager but not for 20 months. What do most consider the best/shortest amount of time to clear up the beer and flavors? Obviously the longer the better but is there a point where it's just diminishing returns?

Also Day_trippr... next time ill stir it thats a good point. I was worried about sanitation.

Oh man, you need to start taking better care of your beer: first beer, then the wife, kids, beer again, dog, cat, don't forget the beer. And the beer fridge.
Once you've got that routine down, introduce more beer to the equation at a faster pace...

You started out so well. If any air got to the beer oxidation would be imminent. You might have experienced yeast autolysis too, indeed. Tastes and smells like Marmite or worse, burnt rubber.

1-2 months of lagering at near freezing temps is the minimum. I've had Pilsners that were lagered for 6 weeks and were superb. A little hazy still, but it would have taken an extra 3-6 months or so to remove that. That's diminishing returns.

You could lager in kegs, purge headspace, place in temp controlled freezer and forget about them. Then transfer the clear beer to a serving keg after blowing off the sediment first.

I'd brew those Lagers plus a few ales, so you have beer in hand while the Lagers take their time to ferment and lager.

 

[btcost]

X2 lager in the kegs. It’s way easier imhop.

I brew 10gal batches. So sometime I drinker a Keller Beer while the other keg lagers!

 

[mongoose33]

Today my buddy came over and we brewed 2 5gal batches side by side to try to play catchup for my mess up. I'm brewing a Dunkle again and now a Schwarzbier which are happily sitting in my keg fridge at about 58F. I did have to modify one of my airlocks because of the headspace on the fridge but.. glad I checked it now rather than find out weeks from now....

One way to deal with the airlock headspace issue is to use a small piece of rigid plastic tubing through a drilled stopper on top of the fermenter, then use a piece of silicone or vinyl tubing to terminate in a jar or bucket or jug or whatever. I've even gone so far as to run that line outside the ferm chamber and terminate it in a jar so I can see what's happening without opening the ferm chamber.

Odd things I did noticed though. My OG came in about 10 points higher on my dunkle, and the immersion wort chiller seemed to work not much faster than an ice bath so I use surprised. I did not have a very fast flow going through the chiller as I had the exhaust end just dumping into the sink next to the chiller but it was coming out cool though so. Weird

Not that this has ever happened to me, but did you remember to turn off the heat?

Two things will make an immersion chiller work much faster. One is to either stir the wort past it or swish the IC around in the wort, and the other is to use as fast of flow as you can. Fast flow plus stirring/swishing will speed things up a lot.

 

[Dabba]

Well I didn't do either of those with the immersion chiller so... that explains that .

Hmm.. I'll plan on lagering for a month then at least before transferring to the kegs. I have one 5gal secondary carboy. I was gonna transfer one beer over before lagering so I can brew an IPA while they lager. Gonna need to grab a third keg.

Also I was thinking of doing a d-rest for both. Do I need to measure the gravity for this or is there another way of estimating how complete fermentation is? I have had an issue in the past hitting my FG and I also want to mess with it the least as possible.

 

[kh54s10]

I doubt that all of the off flavors came from sitting on the yeast. I made a beer that sat on the yeast for at least 6 months. It started as an IPA. I kegged it with a dry hop of a couple ounces and the beer was not bad. I am sure it would have been a lot better if I had not neglected it.

 

[Dabba]

I'm honestly not sure either. Both beers were messed up and my brewing methods havent changed. Maybe the fact I didnt lager them?

 

[mongoose33]

I'm honestly not sure either. Both beers were messed up and my brewing methods havent changed. Maybe the fact I didnt lager them?

In my experience, most beers need to condition. I've had a beer at 3 weeks that was fabulous, and others that took 5 weeks or more before they reached their peak. Lagers? They generally need to lager.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you're looking for a minimal footprint airlock, here's what I use:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/carboy-bung-silicone-breathable-10.html

Bonus: Zero risk of suck-back when cooling.

 

[PADave]

Honestly I don't remember if I used extract or BIAB. It was toward the beginning of the year and they sat in my basement. I fermented at about low 50sF in an ice bath and then let them sit in my basement for months at 60-65F. They kind of had a skunked stale taste. I'm not sure what cardboard tastes like for oxidation but they werent sitting in the sun either so. Either way I did not give them the proper attention.

Need to keep better notes. Really would suck to brew a good one and not remember how you did it.

 

[Dabba]

So far I've only done kits and recipes I've come with online that I record. I don't think I'm at the point yet of perfecting a single brew but one day I'll get to that level of detail for sure!

 

[mongoose33]

So far I've only done kits and recipes I've come with online that I record. I don't think I'm at the point yet of perfecting a single brew but one day I'll get to that level of detail for sure!

IMO, new brewers should try to perfect just a very few recipes; once they've done that, then it's time to branch out.

I see here from time to time brewers who NEVER brew the same thing twice. I don't know how you can get better if you never repeat and look to improve the beer, though maybe that's not their goal.

If you always brew something different, you can never trace the results to process or recipe; but if you brew the same recipe 2 or 3 times, you can see if you're getting better and tweak the process to make it produce that.

My 2 cents.

 

[Dabba]

I have a pale wheat of my own im working on so thats the one I'm going to keep trying to improve.. the issue is there are so many styles Id like to brew haha


Something else I just thought of.. If i used two smack packs of s-23 in each of my lagers do I even need to worry about a D-rest? I've read if you have ample cell counts they will clear it as they make it. So this time I used two packs given the lower temp nature of lager fermenting.

 

[kh54s10]

IMO, new brewers should try to perfect just a very few recipes; once they've done that, then it's time to branch out.

I see here from time to time brewers who NEVER brew the same thing twice. I don't know how you can get better if you never repeat and look to improve the beer, though maybe that's not their goal.

If you always brew something different, you can never trace the results to process or recipe; but if you brew the same recipe 2 or 3 times, you can see if you're getting better and tweak the process to make it produce that.

My 2 cents.

I have never brewed the same exact recipe twice. 101 batches so far. I do brew similar recipes and note the differences. Some that were similar were to switch a malt or a hop and get something different. My beers have improved overall but some of my first few were among my best. Take what you will out of that. But I don't think you have to "perfect" a beer to improve. Besides, what is "perfect"?

 

[kh54s10]

I have a pale wheat of my own im working on so thats the one I'm going to keep trying to improve.. the issue is there are so many styles Id like to brew haha


Something else I just thought of.. If i used two smack packs of s-23 in each of my lagers do I even need to worry about a D-rest? I've read if you have ample cell counts they will clear it as they make it. So this time I used two packs given the lower temp nature of lager fermenting.

I haven't done many lagers so far but I have always used a fermentation profile of 2 weeks at 50 degrees, ramp up to 68 over 2 days, then ramp down to 32 degrees over the course of 2 weeks.

I also don't know about your pitching. S-23 is a dry lager yeast not a smack pack and you would want at least 3 maybe even 5 smack pack for a lager. They take at least double the amount of yeast as an ale. I also think the D-rest is for flavor not clarity.

 

[Dabba]

hmm, I read two of the dry packs. I thought it was only one for ales... Maybe this is why I'm not hitting my numbers?

I haven't done many lagers so far but I have always used a fermentation profile of 2 weeks at 50 degrees, ramp up to 68 over 2 days, then ramp down to 32 degrees over the course of 2 weeks.

I also don't know about your pitching. S-23 is a dry lager yeast not a smack pack and you would want at least 3 maybe even 5 smack pack for a lager. They take at least double the amount of yeast as an ale. I also think the D-rest is for flavor not clarity.