Trouble Shooting Low Mash Efficiency Spike Solo 20g

[Corey22]

Hi all! Finishing up my 3rd brew with the Spike solo 20g and my efficiencies have been quite low.

One batch was supposed to be 1.09OG and ended at 1.074

The last one was supposed to be 1.06 and was 1.04. 5gal batch though. 14lbs of grains.

My Brewfather equipment profile is set to 68% but this last one is like 45%.

Maybe I have a setting wrong? Am I under shooting the amount of grains I should use?

If so, based on my last brew how do i properly update my profile?

One thing to note is I am using a Brew Bag given to me back the last equipment's owner.... Might this lower efficiency? He said it just makes for an easier clean up.

Thanks!
Corey

 

[micraftbeer]

Can you clarify if the numbers you're reporting are "mash efficiency" or "brewhouse efficiency"? Brewfather calculates and lists both. Depending on your answer, there will be a series of follow up questions to get more pertinent details...

 

[Corey22]

Can you clarify if the numbers you're reporting are "mash efficiency" or "brewhouse efficiency"? Brewfather calculates and lists both. Depending on your answer, there will be a series of follow up questions to get more pertinent details...

Hey thanks. Sorry for the vague questions. I didn't know what info would be pertinent.

Also some follow up info that may be relevant:
1. I grind at my local HBS the day before.
2. I do vorlauf for about 15min after mash.
3. I did keep an eye on the overall temperature of the mash and it was at 151 as planned.

 

[micraftbeer]

What was the mash efficiency of the Batch that had a brewhouse efficiency of 45%?

 

[Corey22]

What was the mash efficiency of the Batch that had a brewhouse efficiency of 45%?

71% or so

 

[mashdar]

So you're losing volume somewhere?

 

[Corey22]

So you're losing volume somewhere?

Yes, I do lose volume in my transfer hoses as well as the space below the racking arm of the unitank. I have that volume nailed so I know how to get what I’m wanting, but I’m not getting the OG that I’m planning.

 

[Corey22]

Hi All,

Sorry about that. I did find I was entering a number wrong. My mash efficiency is actually 50%

 

[mashdar]

How are you measuring gravity?

<50% is exceptionally low, and makes me suspect that your measurements are off.

Otherwise, what is your mash process like? (Recirculating? How tight is temperature control? How do you dough in? etc)

 

[IslandLizard]

1. I grind at my local HBS the day before.

What does that "grind" look like?
If it's very coarse that could hamper mash/extraction efficiency.
Have you measured wort gravity and volume right after the mash?

 

[Corey22]

How are you measuring gravity?

<50% is exceptionally low, and makes me suspect that your measurements are off.

Otherwise, what is your mash process like? (Recirculating? How tight is temperature control? How do you dough in? etc)

Using a hydrometer. However, I didn't calibrate it this time and then I broke it, LOL. However, the last time I brewed I calibrated it. However a cheapo brix refractometer showed 1.06 right on the money post boil and cooled, so maybe it is fine and the hydrometer was bad?

What does that "grind" look like?
If it's very coarse that could hamper mash/extraction efficiency.
Have you measured wort gravity and volume right after the mash?

I haven't done a post mash reading, but that is a great idea! The grind "looked" normal to me but I don't have a reference. You got me thinking though. My first brew ground by northern brewer was spot on, and the 2 using the HBS have been wonky, maybe their grinder sucks.

 

[IslandLizard]

My first brew ground by northern brewer was spot on

Good to hear, because, the large online vendors such as NB (Northern Brewer) and MB (MoreBeer) are generally not known for fine milling. IOW, their milling tends to be rather course, at least by homebrew standards. That problem comes into play much more when the kernels are smaller, such as when milling Wheat, Rye, Oat malt, etc., the majority of the kernels not getting adequately crushed, thus not fully exposing the endosperm, resulting in subpar mash results/efficiency.

 

[hottpeper13]

To help find out if it is the crush you could use that refractometer to measure the mash every 15-30 min and see if it gose higher after the 60 min mark. Keep mashing until it stops climbing. For us BIAB'ers mostly done in 30-45 min. My grind is set to .025.

 

[Corey22]

To help find out if it is the crush you could use that refractometer to measure the mash every 15-30 min and see if it gose higher after the 60 min mark. Keep mashing until it stops climbing. For us BIAB'ers mostly done in 30-45 min. My grind is set to .025.

That is a good idea. I'll make that part of my process next.

Otherwise, what is your mash process like? (Recirculating? How tight is temperature control? How do you dough in? etc)

Sorry forgot to answer this bit.
So yes I do recirculate the entire time and leave a few inches of water ontop. I stir maybe 5 times throughout, this time I stirred more because it was a thicker mash. Temperature control steadily rises from like a 250 to 252 over 10min and stays there the whole time (checking every 5min or so).
I dough in with a number of pours (this one was 3 because only 13lbs of grain) and stir fully each time.


An idea: I just learned I can measure, fairly accurately but not perfectly, the ABV of a beer using SG and BRIX. I have a new hydrometer arriving today and I will see how close to the 6% I am. My estimates right now put me at 5.2% which means I wasn't THAT low on the OG.

 

[mashdar]

And you're using pale/pilsner or some malt you know has sufficient diastatic power? (E.g. not 100% 20L "Munich" or 100% crystal etc)

Measurement issues still seem most likely IMO.

 

[Corey22]

And you're using pale/pilsner or some malt you know has sufficient diastatic power? (E.g. not 100% 20L "Munich" or 100% crystal etc)

Measurement issues still seem most likely IMO.

This is what my grain bill ended up being. They ran out of regular pils so i subbed with some bohemian pils

 

[Corey22]

Hi All!
I come with new reliable measurements.
Water temp at 70F.
New Hydrometer reads distilled water at .998, so add .002 to FG reading.
FG of warmed beer sample = 1.01+.002 = 1.012

FG = 1.012
Brix reading with freshly calibrated spectrometer = 6.5 BRIX

using the formula

% ABV = (1.646*Brix) – (2.703*(145-145/SG)) – 1.794

%ABV = 4.2575%

OR backsolving for OG

OG = 1.044

When it should have ben 1.066

This makes these the final results. I also had a field entered wrong on the brew day. BUT this doesn't make sense to me that mash was high. BH is fine because I am assuming a gallon loss at the bottom of the fermenter and in tubing during transfer. But how does a OG of 1.044 make for a 77% mash efficiency

The recipe calculated a 1.061 OG. So what am I doing wrong?

This is about what my ORIGINAL original gravity was at ~1.04


So at least the measurements were right...
Now time to figure out why my mash efficiency was so low?

An idea: I just learned I can measure, fairly accurately but not perfectly, the ABV of a beer using SG and BRIX. I have a new hydrometer arriving today and I will see how close to the 6% I am. My estimates right now put me at 5.2% which means I wasn't THAT low on the OG.

Naturally this was a bit wrong, I used the formula wrong and forgot to calibrate my refractometer - i have done that above.

 

[Corey22]

To stop editing the post above and add additional thoughts:

Is my profile just set up completely wrong?

Calculator shows the grains should be able to get there. I wonder if I just didn't boil off enough or mis read the recipe?

Last edit:
Brewfather was calculating high mash efficiency because of the preboil SG which was incorrect. I am just guessing for 1.03 but that causes it to spit out closer answers

 

[hottpeper13]

Is it possible the Bohemian Pilsner was the floor malted ,under modified kind?

 

[Corey22]

Is it possible the Bohemian Pilsner was the floor malted ,under modified kind?

I would need to call, but it was next to the other base malts so I doubt it. The guy also said just use that instead of the regular.

 

[mashdar]

Is it possible the Bohemian Pilsner was the floor malted ,under modified kind?

Even if it was, the regular pils should have enough DP for the whole batch, I think.

Could your temperature readings for mash be way off?

edit: Do you have hard water? Any pH adjustments?

 

[Corey22]

Even if it was, the regular pils should have enough DP for the whole batch, I think.

Could your temperature readings for mash be way off?

edit: Do you have hard water? Any pH adjustments?

I had both the probe for the water temp, and my thermometer (calibrated) reading the same so i don't think it was this.

I use RO water with a TDS of ~10 and remineralize. PH was about 5.5/6 (the RO water is through a whole home softener before that as well)

 

[mashdar]

Could you be losing a ton of water in the bag? How thoroughly do you let it drain?

This is quite the mystery! I still lean towards measurement problems. I don't have experience with refractometers, but my impression from reading is that they can be unreliable in absolute terms unless you are mak8ng a bunch of beer-specific adjustments. Using hydrometer on next batch will settle that possibility.

 

[Bobby_M]

There are a lot of things to cover and some have been already. Without seeing a picture of the crushed grain, it's easy to assume the crush was a bit coarse for a no sparge process.

Bohemian Floor malted pils is in fact very under-modified and i would never use it without a step mash, including a short protein rest. This alone would have me suspect of being maybe 10% lower in efficiency than expected. Combine that with the fact that both of the flaked grains are non-diastatic, the conversion may just have been slower than expected.

Use your refractometer to log your mash gravities at 10 minute increments. Be willing to extend the mash if your preboil gravity is low at the end of your planned rest period. Ramping up a couple degrees can do wonders to push conversion a bit.

You can increase the accuracy of refractometer readings by collecting the sample in a pipette and shaking the bulb in some icewater for 10 seconds before depositing the sample on the screen.

You could also bump your efficiency on higher gravity beers, say over 1.060 by automatically setting it as a 90 minute boil. That will have you start with about an extra .75 gallons of water.

 

[Corey22]

There are a lot of things to cover and some have been already. Without seeing a picture of the crushed grain, it's easy to assume the crush was a bit coarse for a no sparge process.

Bohemian Floor malted pils is in fact very under-modified and i would never use it without a step mash, including a short protein rest. This alone would have me suspect of being maybe 10% lower in efficiency than expected. Combine that with the fact that both of the flaked grains are non-diastatic, the conversion may just have been slower than expected.

Use your refractometer to log your mash gravities at 10 minute increments. Be willing to extend the mash if your preboil gravity is low at the end of your planned rest period. Ramping up a couple degrees can do wonders to push conversion a bit.

You can increase the accuracy of refractometer readings by collecting the sample in a pipette and shaking the bulb in some icewater for 10 seconds before depositing the sample on the screen.

You could also bump your efficiency on higher gravity beers, say over 1.060 by automatically setting it as a 90 minute boil. That will have you start with about an extra .75 gallons of water.

Good points all around. I did not take a photo of the grain so we have no way of knowing that. All the measurements I took though I think were accurate, all the samples were at room temp.

I never did take a gravity reading post mash, so I will start doing that as well. I can always just lengthen the mash until I hit the SG, or it platues.

Boiling off longer to make a stronger beer, but also have less available to hit a specific SG is also a good idea.

I just need to take many more measurements throughout my next batch (planned a few weeks from now) to see where and what is going wrong.

I appreciate all the info!
QUESTION: Everything I searched said yes, but it seems to be okay to lengthen the mash in order to hit a SG.
I will be back next month !

 

[Bobby_M]

No reason not to lengthen mash to increase conversion efficiency. If more time or more time plus a few degrees of ramp doesn't move the dial after 15 minutes, it's futile at that point.

 

[Corey22]

Hi all! Back with a new brew, same problem. Well I’m actively doing it but yeah

Attached is the recipe. My preboil gravity is 1.063 when it should 1.077. My starting boil volume was somehow 1gal less as well, and I did not spill anything.

Anyway, I did mash for 20min extra and took gravity during this time with 0 change so I cut it then.

I also drained and sparged for much longer.

So…..why is my pre boil gravity so low and why am I not extracting anywhere near as much as I should? Grains this time were bought from northern brewer.

Thanks!

 

[gatsby174]

I don’t know about the volume issue, but I’d be suspecting crush as the primary cause of your inefficiency.

 

[day_trippr]

Was the first batch sparged? There was no mention of it back then...

 

[Corey22]

Sorry forgot to post photos. I did forget to take pic of base malt but I had adjuncts left to photograph.

Also yes the spike system I lift and let sparge for 15min.

 

[IslandLizard]

My starting boil volume was somehow 1gal less as well, and I did not spill anything.

That seems to point to more wort remaining absorbed in the grist than the calculator predicted.

Sorry forgot to post photos. I did forget to take pic of base malt but I had adjuncts left to photograph.

Going by those 2 last pictures, that malt seems barely crushed!
That's most likely the problem you're having reaching anywhere near your target Preboil Gravity and thus OG (gravity of the wort going into the fermenter).

[ADDED] Judging by the first picture, the family cat doesn't seem to like it either.

 

[mashdar]

1224 crush is big but OK. 1223 looks iffy. Are both dehusked? From what I'm told, BIABag typically uses a fairly fine crush, whereas even 1224 is very coarse. Too bad no photo of base malt.

Maybe order another pre-crushed batch online and see if your issues magically disappear? If so, could see if LHBS will adjust gap for you.

 

[Bobby_M]

The crush is a little too coarse but another issue is that the default efficiency for that equipment profile is optimistic for OG over 1.060. Make a copy of the profile and lower it by at least 5% and name it high gravity. Also, adopt a 90min boil on the high grav profile

 

[Corey22]

The crush is a little too coarse but another issue is that the default efficiency for that equipment profile is optimistic for OG over 1.060. Make a copy of the profile and lower it by at least 5% and name it high gravity. Also, adopt a 90min boil on the high grav profile

Great idea, I’m capped out on water so upping boil time probably won’t help (I fill to the rim)

1224 crush is big but OK. 1223 looks iffy. Are both dehusked? From what I'm told, BIABag typically uses a fairly fine crush, whereas even 1224 is very coarse. Too bad no photo of base malt.

Maybe order another pre-crushed batch online and see if your issues magically disappear? If so, could see if LHBS will adjust gap for you.

the grain was cracked but you could still see the hulls if that matters. Here’s a pic during the mash. Probably doesn’t help.

 

[mashdar]

Great idea, I’m capped out on water so upping boil time probably won’t help (I fill to the rim)

the grain was cracked but you could still see the hulls if that matters. Here’s a pic during the mash. Probably doesn’t help.

A bunch of corns I see in that photo look completely in-tact. Those might float better, so inconclusive but suspect. edit: or maybe beautiful husks looking like whole grain

 

[micraftbeer]

I agree with above observations based on 1223 and cat picture, the grain husks are too intact. I would add to this that I see the bulk of your grist is Golden Promise malt. I don't brew a lot with that, but I do know those grains are extra difficult to crack. I think the kernel size must be smaller, because when I've run them through my mill in the past with the same setting I use for everything else, they are poorly cracked (and I had to run them through again because too much effort to adjust mill gap). So I'd say based on the pictures you did send with questionable crush, my experience would expect Golden Promise to be horrible crush.

Here's anecdote about buying a grain mill. I used to just let the LHBS crush the grain. I mean why not- it's free, saves me time, and I don't have to buy and store some other piece of kit. But I would get inconsistent efficiency. And my poor efficiency batches always had a lot of intact kernels in them when studied post-mash. The LHBS would try to make me think it was my problem. He said, "You know how many lbs of grain we crush a day? And how many people complain?" (Implying I was the only whiner.) I then bought a mill, played around with the gap setting until I got good crush and eliminated that variable from my efficiency. Absolutely worth it. I'm always trying to find ways to shorten my brew day and make things more efficient. But I'd never go back to letting my LHBS crush my grain.

 

[Bobby_M]

Great idea, I’m capped out on water so upping boil time probably won’t help (I fill to the rim)

In those cases, pour a sparge into the basket as soon as you lift it into the hang/drain position.

 

[Corey22]

In those cases, pour a sparge into the basket as soon as you lift it into the hang/drain position.

Of fresh water and just boil off more?

 

[mashdar]

Of fresh water and just boil off more?

You said in OP you're using a bag. Is it bag + basket? Bobby is saying to do a (edit: additional) sparge once basket is lifted so you have more open volume in kettle.

No point in adding clear water direct to kettle just to boil it : )

 

[Corey22]

You said in OP you're using a bag. Is it bag + basket? Bobby is saying to do a sparge once basket is lifted so you have more open volume in kettle.

Actually removed that from my equation this time. But the basket can lift.