Too soon for secondary?

[Christy]

Hello - I'm new to homebrewing (and this forum) and am trying to figure out if I will ruin my beer if I move it to my secondary fermenter after 1 week in the primary. I am making a kit "Oaked Imperial Stout" and the instructions state to bottle 10 days after adding the toasted oak powder (which I did just three days ago), but I'd really like to free-up my primary fermenting bucket for a new batch....I just don't have the patience to wait until next week.

So my question is, will I kill the beer if I move it to the secondary now? And then bottle a week from today (so the timing is still bottled 10 days after the addition of the oaked powder)? My secondary is only 5 gallons, otherwise I would start a new batch in the carboy vs. the bucket.

 

[BigB]

My suggestion would be to leave it alone and not to worry about a "secondary." Start your next batch in whatever you were planning to use as a secondary for the first and leave that alone for several weeks.

EDIT: Ok, I see, you only have a 5 gallon carboy that you wanted to use as a secondary... yes that is too small for a primary. I would however, be patient and leave it alone for one more week.

 

[Revvy]

You're not in charge of the beer, the yeast is......And yes a week is too soon to rack

If you want to brew another batch, go get a second bucket, or brew a 4 gallon batch in your carboy but don't rush your beer out of primaty, just because you're impatient.

The 1-2-3 method, or anything that advocates moving a beer out of primary based on a time frame of just a few days is NOT one of the best methods out there, even sillier than going by airlock action.

Moving your beers arbitrarily after a week doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )

If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.

You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.

OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....

Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.

So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

You will find that many of us leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks (or more) and only secondary if we are adding fruit or oak, or to dry hop (though many of us dry hop in primary now as well)....and we have found our beer vastly improved by letting the beer stay in contact with the yeast.

There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

If you do decide to secondary, without a hydrometer, then wait til about 14 days after you pitched yeast, that way you will make sure that the beer has finished, and also give it a couple days for the yeast to clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors (and more than likely won't be cleaned up in secondary away from the yeast.)

Then leave it in secondary for another 2 weeks.

And often you will find that the yeast have their own timeframe, and agenda, because it is they who are in charge after all, not us. They've been doing it for 45 million years, so they are pros...

But realistically, the only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometerThink evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....

But without a hydrometer, then WAITING is the best answer as to when to secondary (again if you choose to, many these days don't and it has even been covered on Basic Brewing Radio and in Byo, the long primary/ no secondary shift in brewing consciousness.)

Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.

 

[Christy]

Okay - I'm ordering a larger carboy and just letting my beer sit and do its thing. Thanks for the advice.

I do have a hydrometer, but your comments about a "krausen" make me wonder if I bottled my very first beer too soon. My hydrometer reading was in the range of "recommended final readings" that my kit outlined, so I went ahead and bottled but there was some bubbly foamy stuff on top. That was 3 weeks ago and I've since drank the beer, it tastes good, but is quite cloudy.

I need to spend more time on this site.

 

[BrewinJack]

You're not in charge of the beer, the yeast is......And yes a week is too soon to rack

If you want to brew another batch, go get a second bucket, or brew a 4 gallon batch in your carboy but don't rush your beer out of primaty, just because you're impatient.

The 1-2-3 method, or anything that advocates moving a beer out of primary based on a time frame of just a few days is NOT one of the best methods out there, even sillier than going by airlock action.

Moving your beers arbitrarily after a week doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )

If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.

You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.

OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....

Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.

So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

You will find that many of us leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks (or more) and only secondary if we are adding fruit or oak, or to dry hop (though many of us dry hop in primary now as well)....and we have found our beer vastly improved by letting the beer stay in contact with the yeast.

There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;



If you do decide to secondary, without a hydrometer, then wait til about 14 days after you pitched yeast, that way you will make sure that the beer has finished, and also give it a couple days for the yeast to clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors (and more than likely won't be cleaned up in secondary away from the yeast.)

Then leave it in secondary for another 2 weeks.

And often you will find that the yeast have their own timeframe, and agenda, because it is they who are in charge after all, not us. They've been doing it for 45 million years, so they are pros...

But realistically, the only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometerThink evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....

But without a hydrometer, then WAITING is the best answer as to when to secondary (again if you choose to, many these days don't and it has even been covered on Basic Brewing Radio and in Byo, the long primary/ no secondary shift in brewing consciousness.)

Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.

You got this on copy and past dont you Rev? Only the 4th time I have seen you splat it down today. Great advice Rev.

 

[Pappers_]

Hi Christy, always good to see new Chicago brewers on here!

I will respectfully disagree with some of the above. If you were to rack your beer, when active fermentation is done (which can be within a week of brewing), and then leave it in secondary for another two to four weeks, that would often result in good beer! Good luck and cheers!