To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

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I agree with the whole pipeline, and don't be impatient point of view to brewing.
That being said, one should take into account that some folks don't have the time, money, space, or equipment to build up a stockpile of beer.
 
I agree with the whole pipeline, and don't be impatient point of view to brewing.
That being said, one should take into account that some folks don't have the time, money, space, or equipment to build up a stockpile of beer.

Right

What I was getting at was that I enjoy the act of brewing.
I don't have the space to store 20 cases of beer, and I can't possibly drink it in any reasonble timeframe.

I've started brewing smaller batches so I can brew more often.

I have 2 6-gallon better bottles, 2 5-gal kettles, a tap-a-draft kit, and assorted other bits of equipment. I have used secondaries but have found better success in getting clear beer from using gelatin findings, not anything about the secondary in particular.

I'm doing 3 gallon all-grain batches now (brew-in-a-bag), putting 1.7 ga. into a tap-a-draft and bottling the rest.

Ideally I'll get to the point where I'll have a collection of various styles of homebrew in my "beer closet" so I can choose whatever suits me on any particular day.
 
Quick addition to this question.

If I just do a primary, do I fit the water bugy thing right off? Or do I leave the hole in the lid for a few days before putting in the water bung?
 
Quick addition to this question.

If I just do a primary, do I fit the water bugy thing right off? Or do I leave the hole in the lid for a few days before putting in the water bung?

I would stick a blow off hose through the hole in the lid for several days until the fermentation starts to slow, then airlock (aka water bugy).
 
Walker, I really didn't understand your justification. How does space justify doing a secondary? You could just as easily have three beers in their primary fermentation in that same space. You can also use those carboys for primaries.

Am I confused as to what you were trying to say?

I'm digging way back in this thread, because I just noticed that I was asked a question and never answered it.

I keep my fermenters in a temp controlled fridge. That fridge is big enough to hold three carboys if at least one of them is a 5 gallon carboy. I cannot fit three 6.5 gallon carboys in there at the same time.
 
I have used secondaries but have found better success in getting clear beer from using gelatin findings, not anything about the secondary in particular.QUOTE]

You can add gelatin right to the primary and it works just as well.
 
Sorry to bump this thread again, but since the whole racking to secondary issue has been resolved, I got another question.

Since Palmer says it is no longer necessary to use a secondary for most beers, is it better to use a bucket or carboy to primary for about a month? I know there are pros and cons to each one, so which do you guys prefer?

Because I just bought a 3rd 5 gallon carboy from my LHBS and going to return it for either a couple more buckets for primary (since I don't need to do a secondary for every beer, like I was doing before) or a 6.5 gallon glass carboy.
 
Might be best to start another thread, since this is a different question. OTOH, the question of plastic v. glass has been done many times. Personally, I do all my primary fermentation (and most of my beers are primary-only) in plastic buckets. I prefer the 7 gal. model from US Plastics, because the extra headspace means I don't have to worry about blowoff tubes & such. I have not read any substantive case that would persuade me that glass is better than plastic.
 
Might be best to start another thread, since this is a different question. OTOH, the question of plastic v. glass has been done many times. Personally, I do all my primary fermentation (and most of my beers are primary-only) in plastic buckets. I prefer the 7 gal. model from US Plastics, because the extra headspace means I don't have to worry about blowoff tubes & such. I have not read any substantive case that would persuade me that glass is better than plastic.

I agree to all of the above. I have one 25L fermenter and one 50L fermenter, both made of plastic. Had once a 25L glass fermenter, then I accidentally broke it and decided not to go back on glass (glass has some pros, but it's too heavy, too difficult to wash and too fragile in my humble opinion).

Cheers :)
Piteko
 
Sorry to bump this thread again, but since the whole racking to secondary issue has been resolved, I got another question.

Since Palmer says it is no longer necessary to use a secondary for most beers, is it better to use a bucket or carboy to primary for about a month? I know there are pros and cons to each one, so which do you guys prefer?

Because I just bought a 3rd 5 gallon carboy from my LHBS and going to return it for either a couple more buckets for primary (since I don't need to do a secondary for every beer, like I was doing before) or a 6.5 gallon glass carboy.

I like 6.5 gallon glass carboys. Plenty of head room, easy to PBW clean, infinitely reusable. I like to keep plastic out of the process as much as possible.
 
Being a newb, I really enjoy using the 6.5g Glass Carboy because if I choose to, I can pull the box I have covering it (to prevent light) and see the actual fermentation process.

I feel this is imperative for a beginner like me to better understand the fermentation process. I think, when it is fully fermenting, that it looks somewhat like a dirty lava lamp. LoL

Happy Brewing
 
...and I am beginnig to think that bottle conditioning with added yeast may be an even better alternative.

I know this quote is from an old post...

When my wife convinced me to start entering some competitions I had to start bottling again. I noticed a difference between the beer that was bottle conditioned and that which was sent to the keg. The two differences were that the bottle conditioned beers got more time on yeast at warmer temperatures while the kegged beer got cold crashed and the yeast pulled off. And artificial CO2 in the keg of course. This difference led me to bottling more beer than I used to. As well, it led me to extend my primary period for beers destined for the corny. With the confirmation of my empirical evidence by others on this forum it has definately changed my methods in the last few years. My next thought is to cut the artificial carbonation in my kegs and going to naturally carbing them with my CO2 bottle used only to push the beer.
 
Thanks Revvy, really clear as you said.
I can tell my experimentation:
I was a secondary fermentation brewer and now I opened the first "first fermenter only" beer I made. It was the first IPA I made too (had many other styles, high and low fermentation, but always waited for this one).
The result: I never had a beer so clear and so good with only 3 weeks of conditioning (I was usually going for at least 6 weeks and the beer was on the top of flavour at 8-12 weeks of conditioning).

The IPA described above won the second prize on a local brewers contest. Here the list of my brews with a shot to the IPA.
I have to say that the easier process, clear beer and a clean flavour profile is more and more convincing me.
Thanks again Revvy :)

Cheers from Italy :mug:
Piteko
 
Primary x3 weeks. Keg your beer. Cold condition X2 weeks. Draw off the first pint or 2 before your company shows up. Viola. Clear beer!


Sorry to bump this thread without reading through but I have to ask: Regarding this method with kegging. Should I shorten my dip tube by an inch or so?

and now back to reading this thread...interesting stuff.
 
It's not an art....guys, we all move our beers, from the basement lager up to the kitchen, or from the brewing closet up to the table to rack to the bottling bucket. We kick stuff up all the time, and those of us who long primary STILL don't have cloudy beers.

What do you think we do, levitate our fermenters from place on pink fluffy clouds? :D

First- The longer you primary the tighter the yeast cake gets (That is what Jamil and palmer are talking about in terms of larger volumes of beer in commercial vats pressing down on the yeast and possibly autolyzing, just on a smaller scale for our homebrewing beer volumes.) your yeast is tighter than if you rack to a secondary or only play with your beer after a couple weeks.

It's NOT going to kick up that much, and anything that does is just going to settle back down shortly after. But it's not going to be as much as you all think.

Heck, half the time I forget adding finnings like moss in the boil.

I don't do anything special when racking or lifting my beers, they get shaken as much as the next guy, and yet for having my beers in primary for a month, I STILL get comments from judges about the clarity of my beers. I don't even cold crash them.

Secondly- when we talk about the "yeast cleaning up after themselves' we're talking about the yeast having plenty of time to go the extra mile and pull a lot more proteins and stuff out of solution which results in overall clarity. Think of it like polishing the beer molecules. The beer as a whole takes on a cleaner, and crisper flavor profile and overall visual clarity, including reducing chill haze proteins.

Then like I said, they are pulled tighter and tighter in the yeast cake over the month or more in secondary.

In fact when racking it to my bottling bucket I rub the bottom of my autosiphon once across the bottom of my primary to kick up a little extra yeast for bottle.
Just to insure that there is plenty of yeast to do the job.

And STILL my beer is pretty clear. It's been called Jewell-like on scoresheets, and I didn't put my beer fermenter in bubble wrap to keep from disturbing the delicate trub at the bottom.:rolleyes:

You're over negatizing the process. It's not a special process, you don't have to be an expert racker or experienced brewer to do this, it's the ANTI Complexity trick. Leaving beer longer in primary actually takes more gunk out of the beer, and leaves more behind at racking to a keg or bottling bucket.

It's really foolproof.

The other thing that further leads to clearer beer is long time in the fridge or chill chest if it's a keg. Again more stuff is dragged out of solution and made tighter in the yeastcake/trub.

I found a bottle of beer that had been in the back of the fridge for 3 months and at pouring the sediment in the bottom of the bottle was so tight that I could fully upend the bottle while pouring it, and even smacking the bottom of the bottle a couple times like you do a ketchup bottle, would dislodge it one bit...The beer was like a polished crystal.

It ain't rocket science or complicated.....


If you do want to crash cool your beer to speed up the process AND reuse your yeast, then is it better to transfer to a secondary first? I know yeast does fine at 40F in the fridge, but will the yeast cake tolerate the 29-30F temperature of my cooling freezer?
 
Also, if I choose to skip the secondary process, can I just dry-hop in the keg? If I use a sanitized tea ball, then how long can I leave it in the keg? Week? Month? Whole time there is beer in the keg?
 
Also, if I choose to skip the secondary process, can I just dry-hop in the keg? If I use a sanitized tea ball, then how long can I leave it in the keg? Week? Month? Whole time there is beer in the keg?

If you dryhop for more than 2 weeks, you will probably take out of the hop a grassy taste.

Cheers! :mug:
Piteko
 
I think we absolutely are still on topic. If we are to accept the new paradigm of life without secondary fermenters, the there will inevitably be some questions in regards to "how do I accomplish what I have always done, while eliminating secondary fermenters." I hope those who lent there wisdom on not needing secondary fermentation will help advise on how to accommodate living without it.
 
WildKnight said:
I think we absolutely are still on topic. If we are to accept the new paradigm of life without secondary fermenters, the there will inevitably be some questions in regards to "how do I accomplish what I have always done, while eliminating secondary fermenters." I hope those who lent there wisdom on not needing secondary fermentation will help advise on how to accommodate living without it.

I now use hops bags for oak in the primary. This gives me the ability to remove the oak whenever it is ready. I used to use the secondary transfer to remove the oak from the beer.
 
I think we absolutely are still on topic. If we are to accept the new paradigm of life without secondary fermenters, the there will inevitably be some questions in regards to "how do I accomplish what I have always done, while eliminating secondary fermenters." I hope those who lent there wisdom on not needing secondary fermentation will help advise on how to accommodate living without it.

Read this thread, all the questions about the howsand whys have been asked and answered a dozen times in here already....Glass or plastic? How do I dry hop? How's it work????? Do I lager in primary or should I rack???? Yadda yadda yadaa....the work has been done, it's all in here, and hundreds or thousands of places in this forum...it's up to you to do your end, and look for it.....the horse has been beaten to death, then rose again as a zombie and beaten down again countless times...Just like the movie groundhog day...anyone who can't get the answers without having to post the question for the z-millionth time, is simply not trying...many of us have been doing this for 5 years, and writing about it...so the anwers are here...
 
Read this thread, all the questions about the howsand whys have been asked and answered a dozen times in here already....Glass or plastic? How do I dry hop? How's it work????? Do I lager in primary or should I rack???? Yadda yadda yadaa....the work has been done, it's all in here, and hundreds or thousands of places in this forum...it's up to you to do your end, and look for it.....the horse has been beaten to death, then rose again as a zombie and beaten down again countless times...Just like the movie groundhog day...anyone who can't get the answers without having to post the question for the z-millionth time, is simply not trying...many of us have been doing this for 5 years, and writing about it...so the anwers are here...

I don't recall anyone addressing whether the primary yeast cake can tolerate near freezing temperatures if you decide to crash cool and want to reuse your yeast, which was my first question. Maybe you can show me where that was answered in this thread a dozens times.
 
the work has been done, it's all in here, and hundreds or thousands of places in this forum...

I don't recall anyone addressing whether the primary yeast cake can tolerate near freezing temperatures if you decide to crash cool and want to reuse your yeast, which was my first question. Maybe you can show me where that was answered in this thread a dozens times.

I just opened a google search and typed "cold crash primary":
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/cold-crash-primary-bucket-200356/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/cold-crash-how-cold-too-cold-101259/

I haven't read them all extensively, but I think there is a good probability you found the answer there, or at least some good suggestions... And I think that there is a good probability you will found the other missing from that dozen too, if you look a bit harder than I did ;)

Cheers! :mug:
piteko
 
Lots of good information here. I'm brewing my first beer right now and I've been kicking around the idea of transferring to a secondary (as the instructions recommend). I think I'm just going to keep it simple and let it sit in the primary for another week or so instead.
 
I use conicals, and dump the yeast a few days before I keg. Now that I think about it, I'm not really sure why I do this. It does seem that the main reason to transfer off the primary yeast is if there were concerns of the yeast puking their guts. I've never experienced this in beer. Leave a yeast cake in the bottom of an open carboy in the sun for a few weeks if you want to know what this smells like.

I don't understand why people think a transfer would result in clearer beer. If, say, you siphon off the primary cake with a half inch or so gap, you could get a bit of yeast/trub in the secondary, due to convection in the region of the end of the tube. This will settle out again in secondary, making the secondary looking cleaner at the end of secondary than at the beginning. When you siphon to kegs or bottling bucket after the secondary, you might again leave a half inch gap.

If you left a full inch gap from the get go, might not the beer be equally as clear if not more clear?

As a potentially off-topic aside, for the bucket brewers, why not ferment in stainless bucket? You wouldn't need triclad bottoms, so they would be a lot cheaper than the same volume boiler. You could abuse the stuff out of it and not worry about O2 diffusing through the walls.

In reference to what revvy posted about palmer's comments, does anyone know what is different about yeast now that makes it less susceptible to autolysis? Maybe purity is better now, but the autolysis part doesn't really make sense to me.
 
OK - I've been watching this question for a while now, and have a couple of my own.
I have decided to try a secondary, just to see for myself the difference. I have only ever done full ferment in the primary.

I brewed an English Ale. OG 1045 - Using Nottingham ale yeast. It's my usual brew and the Nottingham always attenuates really quickly and completely in 4-5 days.

Questions:

1) My primary got to final gravity (1010ish) by the time I put it in the secondary. Does this matter? Did I let it go too far before racking?

2) I also dry hopped 20g of Goldings into the secondary when I racked. Is this too early? Should I have waited a week before dry hopping?

Thanks for any thoughts / experiences.

Nick
 
OK - I've been watching this question for a while now, and have a couple of my own.
I have decided to try a secondary, just to see for myself the difference. I have only ever done full ferment in the primary.

I brewed an English Ale. OG 1045 - Using Nottingham ale yeast. It's my usual brew and the Nottingham always attenuates really quickly and completely in 4-5 days.

Questions:

1) My primary got to final gravity (1010ish) by the time I put it in the secondary. Does this matter? Did I let it go too far before racking?

2) I also dry hopped 20g of Goldings into the secondary when I racked. Is this too early? Should I have waited a week before dry hopping?

Thanks for any thoughts / experiences.

Nick

no and no
 
I swear I have read this entire (22 pg) topic among others, and I'm still not quite sure. To start out though, I think 3~5 weeks in primary is the only way to go in most cases, and I rarely secondary. BUT

I've got a Pliny-style imperial IPA that ended a little higher than planned (~1085) and also fermented a little too hot (70 ~ 72F). So the resulting alcohol burn is pretty noticeable in this thin dry beer. I'm hoping if I age it a few months at cellar temps (60F) it will mellow that out, but assume I should not leave it on the cake for that long.

Other factors:
-Beer has been in primary /6.5gal glass carboy for 4 weeks
-My pitch was a little on large side (900 ml slurry) so the cake is big - I'm concerned about autolysis not just from sitting on the cake but really from over-pitching (although I realize nothing to be done about that now)
- I planned to dry hop the hell out of it and then keg, but this ETOH issue caught me by surprise. I will still DH, but first I think I need to age it.

Will aging this light-bodied beer 3-4 months reduce the etoh bite? and is there any reason I can't dry hop after aging? Back on-topic, and assuming those steps work, is racking to secondary in this case worth it? (weighed against risks of aeration, staling, etc) And is there any chance that rather high alcohol (9 ~ 9.5%) might speed up yeast cell deterioration - or contribute to preservation? If the latter is a possibility I may just leave it in primary for another 4 weeks... if the former I would rack it off asap.

Thanks for any tips.

And thank you HBT & community! I love the site. I've gotten so many thousands of points of feedback in here over the years I usually never have to post. But trying to save this beer if possible.
 
I swear I have read this entire (22 pg) topic among others, and I'm still not quite sure. To start out though, I think 3~5 weeks in primary is the only way to go in most cases, and I rarely secondary. BUT

I've got a Pliny-style imperial IPA that ended a little higher than planned (~1085) and also fermented a little too hot (70 ~ 72F). So the resulting alcohol burn is pretty noticeable in this thin dry beer. I'm hoping if I age it a few months at cellar temps (60F) it will mellow that out, but assume I should not leave it on the cake for that long.

Other factors:
-Beer has been in primary /6.5gal glass carboy for 4 weeks
-My pitch was a little on large side (900 ml slurry) so the cake is big - I'm concerned about autolysis not just from sitting on the cake but really from over-pitching (although I realize nothing to be done about that now)
- I planned to dry hop the hell out of it and then keg, but this ETOH issue caught me by surprise. I will still DH, but first I think I need to age it.

Will aging this light-bodied beer 3-4 months reduce the etoh bite? and is there any reason I can't dry hop after aging? Back on-topic, and assuming those steps work, is racking to secondary in this case worth it? (weighed against risks of aeration, staling, etc) And is there any chance that rather high alcohol (9 ~ 9.5%) might speed up yeast cell deterioration - or contribute to preservation? If the latter is a possibility I may just leave it in primary for another 4 weeks... if the former I would rack it off asap.

Thanks for any tips.

And thank you HBT & community! I love the site. I've gotten so many thousands of points of feedback in here over the years I usually never have to post. But trying to save this beer if possible.

If you have given it 4 weeks in the primary and it has finished fermenting, then a secondary for an extended aging makes good sense.
 
Read this thread, all the questions about the howsand whys have been asked and answered a dozen times in here already....Glass or plastic? How do I dry hop? How's it work????? Do I lager in primary or should I rack???? Yadda yadda yadaa....the work has been done, it's all in here, and hundreds or thousands of places in this forum...it's up to you to do your end, and look for it.....the horse has been beaten to death, then rose again as a zombie and beaten down again countless times...Just like the movie groundhog day...anyone who can't get the answers without having to post the question for the z-millionth time, is simply not trying...many of us have been doing this for 5 years, and writing about it...so the anwers are here...

I agree Revvy but if everyone stopped asking questions and only used the search function the forum would die. I don't think anyone wants that.
 
I agree Revvy but if everyone stopped asking questions and only used the search function the forum would die. I don't think anyone wants that.

And people's opinions change over time. Equipment and ingredients continue to be refined. I think we have to put up with a little rehashing. There are only so many completely different topics we can talk about. Nothing wrong with reminding people to use the search function first, but I think we take it too far sometimes. We were all newbies once (I can safely say I was a newbie twice), let's not scare off all the young talent.
 
I don't buy that one bit.
I've been answering these questions over and over more than you guys, for years. Believe me, neither the questions, nor the answers have changed...if they did, more than likely my post count would have been much shorter....

Let's see the questions being asked daily about this are....

Can I use a bucket?
Is plastic ok?
Can I Dry Hop in the primary?
Will I need to add more yeast at bottling time?

Seriously, even reading this thread you'll more than likely find them asked more than once in this thread. But these are the questions asked over and over and over when this topic is brought up. Why do you think I refer folks to this thread? Because I know they are in here. Along with all the arguements for and against, that have been rehashed over and over and over since some of us first began exploring this 5 years ago....NOTHING has changed in the discussion about this since then EXCEPT for John Palmer changing his tune on it, and more and more folks actually trying it and liking the results. But the words being written on a daily basis, the questions being asked, the arguments brought up? No, they haven't changed on whit.


*shrug*
 
I don't buy that one bit.
I've been answering these questions over and over more than you guys, for years. Believe me, neither the questions, nor the answers have changed...if they did, more than likely my post count would have been much shorter....

Let's see the questions being asked daily about this are....

Can I use a bucket?
Can I Dry Hop in the primary?


*shrug*

Nothing in the rules that says you absolutely have to answer;)
 
All I'm saying is answers are here, and if people aren't too lazy, they can find them...don't people know how to skim any more???

I find annoying that, most of the time, questions come out of nowhere. If I have a problem, I search. If I'm still confused, I ask anyway, but at least I have some background and I can quote or link another thread.

The more the questions come out, the more the threads number about the same argument grows, the harder it gets to find a good answer.

Cheers! :mug:
Piteko
 


about two or three weeks fermentation, three days diacetyl rest, and 6 weeks lagering in the same carboy, no transfer.

Edited for spelling.


Do you mean leaving lagers in primary for a month, or lagering in primary?

I leave my lagers in primary for a month, then rack to a secondary for the several months of lagering.


whew! 24 pages deep! :rockin:

any more tips on lagering for the lager fanbase? i know were the black sheep of the family, but i just think that less is more in a beer :mug:

anyways, i have a vienna lager in my primary right now, currently sitting on day 11.

i chose bavarian lager 2206 (48-58F) and was told to do primary fermentation at the higher end of the temp range, so i plan to keep it at 54-56F for 30 days, then do a 3 day rest, but then... i need to make a big decision :confused:

are "we" racking lagers to secondary?

my plan is to lager at 36-38F for a minimum of 30 days and then see what happens from there... could one month be enough time? i know oktoberfests lager longer than a month, but what about the vienna?

TIA
 
are "we" racking lagers to secondary?

my plan is to lager at 36-38F for a minimum of 30 days and then see what happens from there... could one month be enough time? i know oktoberfests lager longer than a month, but what about the vienna?

TIA

Who cares what "we" are doing. Do what "you" feel like doing. This question (and many other similar questions) does not have a black and white, yes or no answer. This is starting to annoy me. Just because "something" (insert various topics here) is not needed, that doesn't automatically mean that doing "something" is harmful. Granted there are some things to avoid, but even there it is not always yes/no. Even things where the populace says you should do "something", "something" can be done wrong/poorly, resulting in a bad beer.

What works for some people doesn't work for others and vice versa. For some folks any benefits for doing "something" might be too small for them to worry about it. For others, they might feel the benefit of doing "something" is worth it, even if the difference is minor. Others simply like to play with their brews and will do extra "somethings" even if it doesn't make a difference at all.

Me personally, I like to us a secondary on my lagers. That being said, I don't always do them and the beers turn out OK.
 
OK, so I just brewed two batches of saison (Hennepin & Dupont clones), marking my re-entry into brewing after a 20 yr. hiatus. Everything seems to have gone according to plan, the Hennepin is almost a week into primary and bubbling along; pitched the Dupont yeast a few hours ago.

It's with great interest that I read this thread: I don't recall making many beers back in the day which I didn't secondary, apart maybe from some low gravity ordinary bitters and pale ales. I was also frequently using dry yeast back then as liquid cultures were expensive and not many strains were available.

Now I'm using a vigorous liquid yeast (re-cultured Hennepin to a starter, used White labs saison for the Dupont), and all the reasoning for a long primary run seems sound, especially with a strong yeast. I'd like to avoid the hassle of racking to a secondary.

My question is about flavorings: I wonder if anyone out there has done a successful long (single) primary with a saison style, which uses extra bitter flavoring (ginger/orange peel, etc.)? Or any other flavored beers, for that matter.

My concern is that since the beer will sit on the trub much longer, along with the benefit of greater exposure to the yeast will come the disadvantage that the flavoring particles which didn't strain out will continue to impart their characteristics and at the finish the balance will be off.

Any feedback would be much appreciated, please accept my apologies if this topic has already been covered but I couldn't get to every post in the thread.

Thanks
 
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