Tinkering with a Saison recipe

[capulinflicker]

Hi all. I've brewed several batches from kits that my LHBS sells, but now I've decided to branch out and try my hand at one myself. Since the warmer months are coming up I'd like to make a saison since those seem to go so well with higher temps.

Here's what I'm working with so far, let me know what you guys think. Thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns?

Batch: 5.5 gal
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.015
ABV: 5.6%

Fermentables
6 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light
2 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Munich

Steeping Grains
0.25 lb Flaked Corn
0.25 lb Flaked Wheat
0.5 lb Pale 2-Row
0.3 lb Aromatic
0.2 lb Biscuit

Hops
2 oz Styrian Goldings (60 min)
0.5 oz Sterling (15 min)
0.5 oz Sterling (2 min)

Other
1 lb Belgian Candi Sugar (15 min)
2 oz Rose Hips (10 min)

Yeast
Wyeast 3711 French Saison

Any input would be appreciated!

 

[dlaramie08]

You may want to lose the rose hips. The subtle flavor they impart may be lost under the flavor of the yeast. I'm not sure I would use the flaked corn. The candi would dry it out enough.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Think about some oats instead of the corn. Are you using dark sugar or clear sugar? If you're using clear sugar you could just use table sugar.

 

[ChessRockwell]

Couple things -

I think your steeping grains are ones that kinda need to be mashed, you might want to do a mini-mash with them. Unless that's what you are planning on doing, seeing as how you included 2-row... although I think you might need a little more to convert it all. I'm not an expert though, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, there are some really good threads on here about the 3711 yeast. One of 'em is like 48 pages but it's worth a read, there's a lot of good info. A couple things I learned reading them: 1 - you probably don't need the simple sugar to get a dry saison with this yeast, it eats everything and will likely finish very low even without a sugar addition. (there are differing opinions on this) 2 - you don't really need to ferment hot with this yeast, although it seems you can without too much danger of bad side effects (again there are differing opinions/experiences on fermentation temp for this yeast). Either way do a quick search on here and check out the good 3711 threads!

 

[capulinflicker]

Thanks for the input guys, really good stuff. This was an existing recipe that I borrowed and modified a bit (mostly the hops and the spice adjuncts), I'm still learning about the different grains and how to use them. I did some research last night and found a lot of info regarding what needs to be mashed and what can be steeped. I'm moving towards doing partial mashes (I have another kettle on order) but with the long weekend coming up I'd like to take advantage of the extra days and get something in the fermenter.

Based on that, I'm thinking about eliminating a lot of the specialty grains as well as the Belgian candi sugar. I've read a few topics here at HBT regarding 3711 and it definitely sounds like it's a beast. I'm not too concerned with achieving a high abv beer and would rather have something that's more drinkable with a lower percentage. I've thought about maybe switching the yeast to 3724 Belgian Saison, but I'm afraid my apartment doesn't get hot enough (ain't that a first, complaining about apartment not being hot enough) since I'm in a garden level unit and it stays around 73 deg F during the day.

As far as the rose hips, it's something that I've kinda been intrigued with and think it would really work well with a saison. I've never used them before and had a hard time finding a lot of examples that utilized them, but from what I've gathered I sounds like anywhere between 1 to 3 oz per 5 gallons is the desired amount.

Anyway, here's the modified recipe:

Batch: 5.5 gal
OG: 1.056
FG: 1.011
ABV: 5.89%

Fermentables
6 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light
2 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Munich

Steeping Grains
1 lb Crystal 40L
0.2 lb Biscuit

Hops
2 oz Styrian Goldings (60 min)
0.5 oz Sterling (15 min)
0.5 oz Sterling (2 min)

Other
2 oz Rose Hips (10 min)

Yeast
Wyeast 3711 French Saison

 

[Bheher]

Based on that, I'm thinking about eliminating a lot of the specialty grains as well as the Belgian candi sugar.

This is a great idea!
When you start making recipes less grains is better. That way you can learn what grains give which flavors instead of having a bunch of grains and not learning anything.
Start simple and tweak from there.

73 ambient will get you 75 fermenting, that is plenty warm. Wrap the fermenter in a blanket if your apt cools off at night.

 

[dukeredhair]

In my experience 3711 will eat anything. One thing that often gets looked over about 3711 is that it really takes a while to reach peak taste. I think there are a lot of people who would agree with me that if you can lay the bottles down for 6 months you'll like the beer a whole lot better. It ferments quick and hard but it seems to take a while to clean up after itself and really reach peak flavor. I've noticed that i'm much happier with 3724 in younger beers. Just my 2 cents.

 

[capulinflicker]

In my experience 3711 will eat anything. One thing that often gets looked over about 3711 is that it really takes a while to reach peak taste. I think there are a lot of people who would agree with me that if you can lay the bottles down for 6 months you'll like the beer a whole lot better. It ferments quick and hard but it seems to take a while to clean up after itself and really reach peak flavor. I've noticed that i'm much happier with 3724 in younger beers. Just my 2 cents.

I'm fine with letting it age if I need to, I have 2 cases of amber ale conditioning and another case of Irish red that's going on about 3 months now, plus I plan on doing a lot more brewing this summer so that should help stave off my temptation to crack the saison early. I think I'm gonna stick with the 3711, it sounds like less of a hassle to maintain compared to the 3724.

 

[zachattack]

Personally, I don't think any crystal malts belong in a saison. You want it nice and dry, a pound of C40 would get in the way of that.

 

[capulinflicker]

Personally, I don't think any crystal malts belong in a saison. You want it nice and dry, a pound of C40 would get in the way of that.

Any suggestions on a substitute?

 

[zachattack]

I'm no expert on recipe formulation, but one thing that helps is to look at every ingredient and make sure you have a good reason for using it. So I'm going to ask you, what do you want to get out of it?

C40 will add body, color and a lot of unfermentable sugars which will add sweetness to the final beer. Some body and a little bit of color aren't bad in a saison (arguably...) but a saison should finish dry so you want to minimize any unfermentable sugars. The reason most people add sugar or candi syrup is because it's near 100% fermentable and it would help keep the beer dry; the C40 is working against that goal.

The saison style is pretty loose. Most all grain recipes are mostly Belgian pilsner malt with a little bit of Munich or Vienna for subtle complexity. Lots of people add sugar to help with the dry finish, and lots of people add a little bit of wheat or even rye. The idea there (other than adding to the flavor) is proteins in the wheat/rye will bump up the body (and head retention) and add some haze (which can be desirable in a saison) without leaving much unfermentable sugar. But really, in a saison you should have a lot of the flavor coming from the yeast, and spices if you prefer.

You've got some munich in there with the Munich LME, that plus the biscuit should give you a pretty good mix of subtle malt flavors. So to be honest I think you're good to go without anything else! You could add the wheat/rye if you want, and the sugar is a personal choice. Like others mentioned 3711 is known for finishing pretty dry without simple sugars, so your call!

 

[capulinflicker]

Right on, thanks for the info. My partner in crime thinks that in going with rose hips it might be good to have the beer a little more towards the sweet side, hence the Crystal.

I'm still flip-flopping on the issue and things might change once I actually get the LHBS. However, the more I'm thinking about it I think it's probably best to stay simple early and then move from there, as Bheher mentioned.

 

[RiffMagnum]

Right on, thanks for the info. My partner in crime thinks that in going with rose hips it might be good to have the beer a little more towards the sweet side, hence the Crystal.

I'm still flip-flopping on the issue and things might change once I actually get the LHBS. However, the more I'm thinking about it I think it's probably best to stay simple early and then move from there, as Bheher mentioned.

The saison i just did called for 1 lb of piloncillo (panela), but my LHBS didn't have it so i subbed with belgian candi. The panela sounds yummy though and i kinda wish i would've just made the trip to a proper grocery store and tried it.

 

[HawksBrewer]

Have you thought about using some acidulated malt in your recipe? 1/2 lb is a nice addition to any saison.

 

[capulinflicker]

The saison i just did called for 1 lb of piloncillo (panela), but my LHBS didn't have it so i subbed with belgian candi. The panela sounds yummy though and i kinda wish i would've just made the trip to a proper grocery store and tried it.

Hmm... sounds interesting. Haven't thought of using panela in beer before, I'd imagine it'd impart a caramel type flavor to it but never thought of having that show up in a saison. Might be worth an experiment.

 

[RiffMagnum]

Hmm... sounds interesting. Haven't thought of using panela in beer before, I'd imagine it'd impart a caramel type flavor to it but never thought of having that show up in a saison. Might be worth an experiment.

Yeah, i think next time i do a saison I'll make sure i get some. It was a recipe from "Radical Brewing" so i don't think it's necessarily a "traditional" saison, although no one seems too sure what defines a saison to begin with, so...

 

[zachattack]

i don't think it's necessarily a "traditional" saison, although no one seems too sure what defines a saison to begin with, so...

Well said. Saisons were farmhouse, rustic as hell beers. So there are no tight guidelines. I've had darker saisons, lighter saisons, stronger saisons, sweeter saisons, etc. It does seem that most people (myself included) associate saisons with something spicy, dry, strongly carbonated and thirst quenching.

Brew it however you want, you can always brew it again and tweak it a bit!

 

[RiffMagnum]

Well said. Saisons were farmhouse, rustic as hell beers. So there are no tight guidelines. I've had darker saisons, lighter saisons, stronger saisons, sweeter saisons, etc. It does seem that most people (myself included) associate saisons with something spicy, dry, strongly carbonated and thirst quenching.

Brew it however you want, you can always brew it again and tweak it a bit!

Yeah, i'm very curious how it turns out. The recipe was crazy as hell.

 

[zachattack]

I have that book but don't remember that recipe. I'll check it out

 

[Phunhog]

Just to reiterate what other have said...the only specialty grains I would use is some some flaked wheat and some Munich/Vienna. The yeast is what really drives this beer. Since you are an extract brewer I would highly recommend using some plain sugar. It will help dry the beer and remember Saison's are supposed to finish dry. I think BJCP guidelines are something like 1.002-1.008 and it will be almost impossible to do that using extract without some sugar

 

[ChessRockwell]

BJCP guidelines are something like 1.002-1.008 and it will be almost impossible to do that using extract without some sugar

Even with Wyeast 3711? I'm not so sure... Have you read the threads on this yeast?

 

[Phunhog]

Even with Wyeast 3711? I'm not so sure... Have you read the threads on this yeast?

I haven't but there other Saison yeast besides that one. I have a Saison in my primary right now. I used White Labs 566 Saison II and am at 88% attenuation right now. I think the key is using some plain sugar, low mash temps (if you brew all grain), and slowly ramping up fermentation temperature.

 

[capulinflicker]

Well I went ahead and brewed this with 0.5 oz Crystal 40L and 0.2 oz Biscuit. I think I accidentally ended up adding too much Munich LME because I overshot my SG (1.086!!!)

That or my steeping process is the explanation. Here's what I did:

Heated 1 gal water to 165 deg F, turned off burner and added grain bag. I should note, in moving pots around and getting my main kettle water pre-heated, I accidentally turned on the wrong burner and ended up heating the steeping pot. Once I realized this I took a reading and it came to just under 170 deg f. I immediately took the pot off the stove and added a few ice cubes to bring the temp back to 165 deg F. I then put on the lid and let it steep for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes the steeping water read 140 deg F. I let the grains strain over my main kettle in a colander and then rinsed with 140 deg F water (approx 3 cups). After that I continued with adding the LME and then boiling for 60 minutes. The LHBS only had the Munich in 3.3 lb cans so I couldn't measure it out precisely like I did with the Light (still need to grab a kitchen scale).

I'm glad I went ahead and made a 2L yeast starter. I'm not TOO worried about since it sounds like 3711 will tear through everything, but I'm mad I missed my SG by that much. Oh well, we'll see how this one turns out, hopefully I don't end up with rocket fuel