This is huge for us Lager brewers...
- Thread starter DrZaius
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So, it is possible that in the future, we might have access to yeasts that require low temperature fermentation (i.e. special equipment) that give the same flavors we get from simple ale room-temperature/ambient temp fermentations (i.e. no special equipment).
Sounds awesome.
Sounds awesome.
Thank you for sharing that - quite interesting...
Good time to be a yeast maker I bet: whole new world just opened up.
Good time to be a yeast maker I bet: whole new world just opened up.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
Well, any article that starts off with "Lagers are boring" is already suspect IMO but ...
^ that's what I was thinking. I drink way more ales but I certainly appreciate a well made lager - and when I order one I expect it to have the nice clean, crisp character. I'm not so sure the "lager lovers" described in the article (in particular the 3/4 of the US market mentioned) are going to want beers with a bunch of phenolics and esters in them. If they did they would already be drinking those ales. It's interesting to hear about new yeast strains, and I'm sure that there will be a market for these beers, but making the case that it's "rescuing" lager drinkers from monotony makes no sense. It's like inventing a really clean Belgian yeast and saying "Belgian beer drinkers can now rejoice, they can have a Beligan beer without all those yucky Belgian characteristics!" Uh...
^ that's what I was thinking. I drink way more ales but I certainly appreciate a well made lager - and when I order one I expect it to have the nice clean, crisp character. I'm not so sure the "lager lovers" described in the article (in particular the 3/4 of the US market mentioned) are going to want beers with a bunch of phenolics and esters in them. If they did they would already be drinking those ales. It's interesting to hear about new yeast strains, and I'm sure that there will be a market for these beers, but making the case that it's "rescuing" lager drinkers from monotony makes no sense. It's like inventing a really clean Belgian yeast and saying "Belgian beer drinkers can now rejoice, they can have a Beligan beer without all those yucky Belgian characteristics!" Uh...
IDK that the scientific american writer really understood why this is of interest to brewers. Brewers always want more tools to do their job, regardless of whether or not they actually use them. Brewers don't necessarily want "interesting lagers." They want "interesting yeast." The lager part isn't the most important aspect.
Can't imagine taking a good German style lager and trying to make it taste like anything Belgian. LOL
SpeedYellow
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the deal is this: accept the cost and hassle of fermenting cold in order to get a clean-tasting beer. So why would you go through all that hassle just to make a beer that tastes like a Belgian? Makes no sense. Just use a Belgian yeast at warm temps.
The author apparently knows very little about beer.
The author apparently knows very little about beer.
If all the researchers try to do is make lager yeasts which taste belgian, than it's a wasted opportunity.
Yes, lager yeasts can produce beer that tastes "clean" compared to a belgian or English beer. That doesn't mean that it has no yeast derived flavors. If you brew some lagers using different lager yeasts, you'll begin to notice the differences - WLP835, for example, produces a very subtle floral taste and aroma that is distinct from what you get from noble hops, but tastes wonderful in a beer like Munich Helles. It's a background character that enhances the beer as a whole as opposed to something that stands out at the forefront. The urquell yeast when used properly leaves a very small amount of residual diacetyl, which combined with its ester profile and the malt flavors result in a toffee-like flavor that urquell is known for.
I don't want lager yeasts that taste like ale yeasts either, but I'm all for new lager strains that offer new flavors that would harmonize with the malt and hops in a good lager.
Yes, lager yeasts can produce beer that tastes "clean" compared to a belgian or English beer. That doesn't mean that it has no yeast derived flavors. If you brew some lagers using different lager yeasts, you'll begin to notice the differences - WLP835, for example, produces a very subtle floral taste and aroma that is distinct from what you get from noble hops, but tastes wonderful in a beer like Munich Helles. It's a background character that enhances the beer as a whole as opposed to something that stands out at the forefront. The urquell yeast when used properly leaves a very small amount of residual diacetyl, which combined with its ester profile and the malt flavors result in a toffee-like flavor that urquell is known for.
I don't want lager yeasts that taste like ale yeasts either, but I'm all for new lager strains that offer new flavors that would harmonize with the malt and hops in a good lager.
Yes! That would be awesome.
suregork
Well-Known Member
Hi, I'm one of the researchers involved in the project discussed in the article, and I'd be happy to answer any questions in case you have any 
As you guys mention, there of course would be no point in creating lager yeast strains that perform exactly like ale strains just to be able to call it lager and ferment it cool. That is not the purpose of our project either, rather we want to a) develop methodology so that we can create tailor-made strains based on the needs of brewers and b) better understand the molecular mechanisms affecting the properties of brewing yeast hybrids. Besides aroma compounds, we are focusing on lots of other characteristics as well, such as fermentation rate, flocculation, diacetyl formation, ethanol tolerance, flavor stability etc. So yes, we are hoping to improve the diversity of lager yeast strains available to brewers, and this wouldn't be limited to just aroma, e.g. it could be a clean, fast, highly flocculating, low-diacetyl and ethanol tolerant lager yeast.
It is a known phenomenon that hybrid species tend to outperform their parent strains (hybrid vigor or heterosis), and this is something we've seen with the majority of the hybrids we've created. The new lager yeasts tend to ferment faster, attenuate better and produce more aroma compounds than either parent strains (at both high and low temperatures). We are now looking into ways of better controlling their properties. The first hybrid lager yeast strains that we characterized (i.e. the ones in the JIMB artice linked in the SA article) were generated from a fruity, highly flocculating, POF+ ale strain, and that is why the hybrids shared a lot of the same characteristics (and the beer tasting 'Belgian'). We have since generated hundreds of other hybrids with different parent strains, and they can have quite different and interesting properties
As you guys mention, there of course would be no point in creating lager yeast strains that perform exactly like ale strains just to be able to call it lager and ferment it cool. That is not the purpose of our project either, rather we want to a) develop methodology so that we can create tailor-made strains based on the needs of brewers and b) better understand the molecular mechanisms affecting the properties of brewing yeast hybrids. Besides aroma compounds, we are focusing on lots of other characteristics as well, such as fermentation rate, flocculation, diacetyl formation, ethanol tolerance, flavor stability etc. So yes, we are hoping to improve the diversity of lager yeast strains available to brewers, and this wouldn't be limited to just aroma, e.g. it could be a clean, fast, highly flocculating, low-diacetyl and ethanol tolerant lager yeast.
It is a known phenomenon that hybrid species tend to outperform their parent strains (hybrid vigor or heterosis), and this is something we've seen with the majority of the hybrids we've created. The new lager yeasts tend to ferment faster, attenuate better and produce more aroma compounds than either parent strains (at both high and low temperatures). We are now looking into ways of better controlling their properties. The first hybrid lager yeast strains that we characterized (i.e. the ones in the JIMB artice linked in the SA article) were generated from a fruity, highly flocculating, POF+ ale strain, and that is why the hybrids shared a lot of the same characteristics (and the beer tasting 'Belgian'). We have since generated hundreds of other hybrids with different parent strains, and they can have quite different and interesting properties
wobdee
Junior Member
Sounds good to me
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
@suregork your post is much more intriguing than the actual article
Are any of your new strains close to being released to commercial production? Certainly I think most folks on here would appreciate your work and be interested as I am in seeing new strains - even if the Bud light drinkers themselves don't want to be rescued from their plight!
Are any of your new strains close to being released to commercial production? Certainly I think most folks on here would appreciate your work and be interested as I am in seeing new strains - even if the Bud light drinkers themselves don't want to be rescued from their plight!
suregork
Well-Known Member
@suregork your post is much more intriguing than the actual article
Are any of your new strains close to being released to commercial production? Certainly I think most folks on here would appreciate your work and be interested as I am in seeing new strains - even if the Bud light drinkers themselves don't want to be rescued from their plight!
Thanks
We are in quite early stages and there is a lot of work still to do, but hopefully these new strains will be available in a couple of years.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Hi, I'm one of the researchers involved in the project discussed in the article, and I'd be happy to answer any questions in case you have any
As you guys mention, there of course would be no point in creating lager yeast strains that perform exactly like ale strains just to be able to call it lager and ferment it cool. That is not the purpose of our project either, rather we want to a) develop methodology so that we can create tailor-made strains based on the needs of brewers and b) better understand the molecular mechanisms affecting the properties of brewing yeast hybrids. Besides aroma compounds, we are focusing on lots of other characteristics as well, such as fermentation rate, flocculation, diacetyl formation, ethanol tolerance, flavor stability etc. So yes, we are hoping to improve the diversity of lager yeast strains available to brewers, and this wouldn't be limited to just aroma, e.g. it could be a clean, fast, highly flocculating, low-diacetyl and ethanol tolerant lager yeast.
It is a known phenomenon that hybrid species tend to outperform their parent strains (hybrid vigor or heterosis), and this is something we've seen with the majority of the hybrids we've created. The new lager yeasts tend to ferment faster, attenuate better and produce more aroma compounds than either parent strains (at both high and low temperatures). We are now looking into ways of better controlling their properties. The first hybrid lager yeast strains that we characterized (i.e. the ones in the JIMB artice linked in the SA article) were generated from a fruity, highly flocculating, POF+ ale strain, and that is why the hybrids shared a lot of the same characteristics (and the beer tasting 'Belgian'). We have since generated hundreds of other hybrids with different parent strains, and they can have quite different and interesting properties
Suregork: this research sound fascinating! Have any of your findings been published in a peer-reviewed journal? Better still, are there any free online journals where we can read in more detail about your findings?
suregork
Well-Known Member
Our first findings were recently published in the Journal of Industrial Microbiology & Biotechnology:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10295-015-1597-6
The article is open access, so free to read
Alfred Kordelin Foundation, Academy of Finland and PBL (a company co-owned by the four largest breweries in Finland)
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Thanks very much!
Phil_Ozzy_Fer
Well-Known Member
Interesting...wonder how long before commercial labs get a hold of it?
