Thinking of upgrading to 50 amp - how to terminate 6ga wire?

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I've just started the process of building a new brew room and considering running 50 amp to it.

I like the flexibility that 50 amp would bring (2 large elements at the same time means faster heating) but I am having trouble finding materials to terminate the 6 gauge wire in my panel.

In my current 30 amp panel, I've used crimp spade and ring terminals with terminal strips to distribute power around the panel but 30 amp rated ones are available everywhere. 50 amp is much harder to find. I like the idea of using terminal blocks like Electric Brewing Supplies sells but I'm still not sure how to terminate stranded 6 gauge wire into those. In my experience, large stranded wire tends to loosen up over time in terminal blocks.

Any suggestions on the best method to terminate 6 gauge stranded wire? Any good sources for terminals and strips rated for 50 amps?

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[BrunDog]

I used this terminal block and put wire ferrules.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I used this terminal block and put wire ferrules.

Thanks Brun! Do you mean the terminal block I linked to from Electric Brewing Supply? Can you show me specifically what ferrules you used?

On a side note, I love how you've arranged your panel. How did you attach the wire raceways to the backplane? It looks like you used metal screws - I thought that was a no-no due to issues with the potential damage to the wire insulation. Can you tell I like to overthink things?

 

[BrunDog]

I used machine screws. They are pan head so don't really have any sharp edges. I don't know about avoidance of screws as a rule. The ducts have holes - what else would they be for? My understanding from experienced integrators is that adhesive based ducts and tie-downs should be avoided as they tend to come loose. Anyway, I'm no expert here.

That said, here is my current panel. See... no screws!

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

The ducts have holes - what else would they be for?

I've seen plastic anchors used instead of metal. Again, I'm probably overthinking it!

Another ferrule related question: What crimping tool do you have? Ideally, I'd like one that can cover a large range of sizes up to 6 gauge, but most I've seen stop at 10 gauge. I'd rather not buy a 2nd tool just to crimp about 6-9 6 gauge wires...

The panel looks great! What width raceways are those? How close to the terminal blocks, relays, etc. are they? Panel real estate is always at a premium.

 

[nobadays]

Just a thought...having the same concerns you do of stranded wire loosening in the terminals, I tinned the ends of my #6 wire. In other words; strip the end of the wire, flux the bare copper then heat with a soldering iron and run a bit of solder to solidify/hold the strands together. Clean well and tighten into the terminal block.

Cheers!

 

[BrunDog]

I dunno the rules about tinning strands but I think it makes good sense. You will likely melt the insulation a bit.

WoF: I have a universal tool but I must admit it wasn't purpose suited for ferrules. It made a rectangular box shape of the ferrule which fit well into the blocks. With my recent upgrade to the new control system I went around and tightened everything.

The duct widths are about 2.25" high and 1.5" wide. I can't tell you exactly how close but I laid it all out before committing anything. Yes, you can never have enough real estate. I learned that the hard way as you can see my relays are stacked. I will be adding a third to the stack soon.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Just a thought...having the same concerns you do of stranded wire loosening in the terminals, I tinned the ends of my #6 wire. In other words; strip the end of the wire, flux the bare copper then heat with a soldering iron and run a bit of solder to solidify/hold the strands together. Clean well and tighten into the terminal block.

Cheers!

I dunno the rules about tinning strands but I think it makes good sense. You will likely melt the insulation a bit.

Tinning is a hot topic among the electricians I know. Some are all for it; others dead set against. In our application, it's probably a good solution considering we really don't put our panels through the kind of stress an industrial environment will see.

Yes, you can never have enough real estate. I learned that the hard way as you can see my relays are stacked. I will be adding a third to the stack soon.

What about adding a second panel vs. stacking the relays? I have an Auber 12"x16" panel w/heat sink that works for my current setup, but is a bit too small for what I'm planning. I'm not adding any new SSRs, however, so it's hard to justify buying a new, larger panel and heat sink when the one I have will work. When I upgrade, I am leaning towards adding a 2nd small panel, and putting all my low voltage controls (BCS, temperature probes, etc) in that one and all the AC stuff in the other. It will also make it easier when I decide to replace the BCS with an Arduino and your BruControl system!

 

[BrunDog]

I hadn't thought about a second panel - that's a pretty good idea. I kind-of did that with the relay boards. I have the lower one mounted to a piece of acrylic sheet which has DIN rail clips mounted to it. I then used nylon male/female standoff to mount the lower one to it and the higher one to the lower one. I was just going to put the third one in the same way. The problem is accessing the wiring - to get to the bottom ones I would need to pull off the higher ones. Fortunately that's not likely to happen. Of course, now that I said that, one of those relays is destined to fail!

Thanks on the BruControl comment - whenever you are ready!

 

[Esmitee]

I've just started the process of building a new brew room and considering running 50 amp to it.

I like the flexibility that 50 amp would bring (2 large elements at the same time means faster heating) but I am having trouble finding materials to terminate the 6 gauge wire in my panel.

In my current 30 amp panel, I've used crimp spade and ring terminals with terminal strips to distribute power around the panel but 30 amp rated ones are available everywhere. 50 amp is much harder to find. I like the idea of using terminal blocks like Electric Brewing Supplies sells but I'm still not sure how to terminate stranded 6 gauge wire into those. In my experience, large stranded wire tends to loosen up over time in terminal blocks.

Any suggestions on the best method to terminate 6 gauge stranded wire? Any good sources for terminals and strips rated for 50 amps?

Thanks in advance for the help!

I am by no means an electrician, or a control panel engineer. I work in residential construction of custom homes. I always see the meter sockets connected by the local electric company and the main/sub panels up to 400 amp that are installed by licensed electricians. I never seen any type of connectors used for the heavy gauge wires , 6 gauge and heavier used to connect them. I only ever see the heavy gauge stranded wires installed in the lugs as is, Without any connectors. I would think if it's ok for the high voltage connections for your service panels, it should be ok for your wiring inside a Brew panel. Also, in my own thinking, using a connector at these main power connections, may be a place to have a and additional/possible, unwanted "loose" connection?

Just my observance.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I am by no means an electrician, or a control panel engineer. I work in residential construction of custom homes. I always see the meter sockets connected by the local electric company and the main/sub panels up to 400 amp that are installed by licensed electricians. I never seen any type of connectors used for the heavy gauge wires , 6 gauge and heavier used to connect them. I only ever see the heavy gauge stranded wires installed in the lugs as is, Without any connectors. I would think if it's ok for the high voltage connections for your service panels, it should be ok for your wiring inside a Brew panel. Also, in my own thinking, using a connector at these main power connections, may be a place to have a and additional/possible, unwanted "loose" connection?



Just my observance.

Yeah, I thought about the fact that my 50 amp circuits in my breaker panel don't have any special connectors either. You are probably correct that it isn't a necessity.

I work in industrial environments, and the control panels we use typical use ferrules for the stranded wires because they do become loose in terminal blocks without them. I've had several issues with loose wires because they weren't used. Those are much harsher environments so, yeah, I'm probably overthinking things. Call it my engineering training - we are taught to worry about how it could break!

Thanks for the reply!

 

[BrunDog]

Correct me if wrong... the strand diameter of the 00 and other mains cables is much larger, so can handle the lug.

 

[Esmitee]

Yeah, I thought about the fact that my 50 amp circuits in my breaker panel don't have any special connectors either. You are probably correct that it isn't a necessity.

I work in industrial environments, and the control panels we use typical use ferrules for the stranded wires because they do become loose in terminal blocks without them. I've had several issues with loose wires because they weren't used. Those are much harsher environments so, yeah, I'm probably overthinking things. Call it my engineering training - we are taught to worry about how it could break!

Thanks for the reply!

LOL, Well I don't have a problem with the "Over think/Overkill", I'm one of them too ha ha ha. I can see how/why you would need them in an industrial environment. I'm currently sourcing parts for my 50 amp panel build. However, I'm on a very tight shoestring budget. I like those Din Rail blocks you have the link to. Do they require the ferrules for the wires? I don't think they do, but seen a photo with it suggesting they do.
I would like to use them, but if they are a lot more expensive the the terminal blocks I can get on ebay or amazon, I'll just go with them. They seem to be a satisfactory alternate to the DR blocks, and I don't really have to plan out for every block, divider, end caps etc. Because I will miss something to order! Do you know of any cheap 2 pole 60 amp contactors. I seem to only find 3 pole in the $50 buck + range. I can buy 2 pole 30 amp ?Packard? contactors for like $9 bucks. Could I use a 3 pole 60 amp contactor and only use 2 of the 3 poles and still have the rating of 60 amps?

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Do you know of any cheap 2 pole 60 amp contactors. I seem to only find 3 pole in the $50 buck + range. I can buy 2 pole 30 amp ?Packard? contactors for like $9 bucks. Could I use a 3 pole 60 amp contactor and only use 2 of the 3 poles and still have the rating of 60 amps?

I'm planning on using this one: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/2-pole-63a-220v-coil-din-rail-contactor/

For the terminal blocks, I'm also looking at these: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Terminal_Blocks/Konnect-It_DIN-Rail_Terminal_Blocks/Single-level_Feed-Through_Terminal_Blocks
These offer different sizes; the smaller gauge wires can go on ones only 5mm wide - panel real estate is something else I'm considering with my choices!

 

[itsnotrequired]

many terminals are rated for direct connection of conductors, stranded and solid, without the need for any spades or ferrules. check the ratings though, some are rated for direct connection of just solid but not stranded. regarding tinning conductors, code does not address this but i suppose it can't hurt. i personally terminated all my conductors in my panel directly to the terminals with no additional lugs.

EDIT: i just looked up those konnect-it blocks, they are rated for solid or stranded conductors. i personally wouldn't bother with ferrules or lugs but that is really your call. note that the terminals are only rated for one conductor per termination.

regarding the wire ways, mine are adhesive. i don't believe this will be an issue given the number of conductors and usage of the panel. sure, screw down might make sense in something used around the clock with a massive amount of wires in it but for homebrew use, the panel gets used what, once a month? twice a month? no problem screwing it in but for me, way easier just to stick it on.

 

[nobadays]

I think a lot of folks...me included use the Auberins contactors, 30/40A. They are reasonably priced - Half the price of the one you selected - and function well. If you feel you need a larger contactor, 40/50A they are only a couple dollars more. Not sure you need a +60A contactor for your application. Will you not have a contactor for each element? Or do you intend to always fire both elements together? It would seem plausible that you would want the option to use one or both rather than everytime the PID calls for heat, both elements would fire.
The Auberins contactors... Here is the link Or here

And... It's possible I'm not visualizing what you are trying to do...if so I'll back on out'a here!

Cheers!

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

many terminals are rated for direct connection of conductors, stranded and solid, without the need for any spades or ferrules. check the ratings though, some are rated for direct connection of just solid but not stranded. regarding tinning conductors, code does not address this but i suppose it can't hurt. i personally terminated all my conductors in my panel directly to the terminals with no additional lugs.

EDIT: i just looked up those konnect-it blocks, they are rated for solid or stranded conductors. i personally wouldn't bother with ferrules or lugs but that is really your call. note that the terminals are only rated for one conductor per termination.

regarding the wire ways, mine are adhesive. i don't believe this will be an issue given the number of conductors and usage of the panel. sure, screw down might make sense in something used around the clock with a massive amount of wires in it but for homebrew use, the panel gets used what, once a month? twice a month? no problem screwing it in but for me, way easier just to stick it on.

This is great to know! Thanks for looking up the details on those contact blocks. I really want to go to 50 amp, since it opens up the ability to run two large heaters at once. It sure seems like once your wires go above 10 gauge, it gets a lot harder to find terminals and tools.

I'm just about to start framing in the new brew room, and I will need to decide on 50 amp soon. Since 6 gauge feeder cable is about twice as expensive as 10 gauge, I wanted to make sure I would have a good solution for my panel before making this investment. Your feedback above makes me comfortable making this choice! Thanks!

 

[doug293cz]

... Do you know of any cheap 2 pole 60 amp contactors. I seem to only find 3 pole in the $50 buck + range. I can buy 2 pole 30 amp ?Packard? contactors for like $9 bucks...

Not as cheap as the Packards, but http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=439, two pole, 63A, DIN rail for ~$25.

Brew on

 

[Esmitee]

Not as cheap as the Packards, but http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=439, two pole, 63A, DIN rail for ~$25.

Brew on

Thanks Doug, I had seen that 63 amp contactor on Auberins and that was going to be my choice because of it's price point. However, I found this one on Amazon,

Baomain AC Contactor HC1-63 110V 63A 2 Pole Universal Circuit Control DIN Rail Mount




https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01J1RFZSY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

it appears to have the same exact specifications as the Auberins. so I bought it for $16.29 . I think it's the same exact contactor as Auberin's is selling'

For My project I'm putting together, I have to MINE the internet, till I find gold. I found gold with this purchase.

Pass it along

 

[Esmitee]

Here is a pic of it

 

[Esmitee]

I think a lot of folks...me included use the Auberins contactors, 30/40A. They are reasonably priced - Half the price of the one you selected - and function well. If you feel you need a larger contactor, 40/50A they are only a couple dollars more. Not sure you need a +60A contactor for your application. Will you not have a contactor for each element? Or do you intend to always fire both elements together? It would seem plausible that you would want the option to use one or both rather than everytime the PID calls for heat, both elements would fire.
The Auberins contactors... Here is the link Or here

And... It's possible I'm not visualizing what you are trying to do...if so I'll back on out'a here!

Cheers!

Nobadays, My project will be using a 60 amp supply, mostly because I picked up a 60 amp Spa Panel for much less that a 50 amp Spa Panel, let alone a 50 amp GFCI breaker. I want to use a 5500w element in my HLT/HERMS coil and a 5500w element in my BK SO, I can heat up my strike water in the BK, while I'm simultaneously heating up my mash in water to start circulating the mash as soon as I dough in. That will save me a bunch of TIME. If I did it like the 30 amp guys, Most say they use the HLT. They fill it up to the max volume and heat it to their strike temp , then dough in with some of the heated water from the HLT. That sounds good, and it works, But, what I don't like, is the next part.
After using maybe 50% (or more than that) of that heated water, Now they have to "TOP OFF" the HLT to have the correct amount of "Sparge water" AND at least enough to cover the coil inside to be able to recirc the mash through the coil. All that does, is add more TIME to wait till the freshly added water catches up so they can recirc the mash.

With the 60 amp supply and based control panel , I will cut a lot of time off my brew day. I will be able to do Back to Back batches saving even more of my Brew day time. I will be able to give my counter flow chiller a great sanitizing while waiting for the mash to complete and also my fermentors and while waiting for the boil to finish, I can have some very hot water waiting to do my BK and chiller clean up as soon as the last drop of wort leaves the tubing. Again, Saving TIME.

:rockin: :rockin:

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks Doug, I had seen that 63 amp contactor on Auberins and that was going to be my choice because of it's price point. However, I found this one on Amazon,

Baomain AC Contactor HC1-63 110V 63A 2 Pole Universal Circuit Control DIN Rail Mount




https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01J1RFZSY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

it appears to have the same exact specifications as the Auberins. so I bought it for $16.29 . I think it's the same exact contactor as Auberin's is selling'

For My project I'm putting together, I have to MINE the internet, till I find gold. I found gold with this purchase.

Pass it along

Good find! Could very well be the same one that Auber resells.

Brew on

 

[nobadays]

Esmitee.... got it! Good to see Doug in on this, he has the straight Dope! Carry on!

Cheers!