Thinking about going BIAB. Anyone one with regrets? Tips?

[GnenieGone]

What volume calculators is everyone using? What is the typical absorption rate if you just let the bag free drip?

Good question. I actually started "wetting" the grains for about 30sec with hot tap water. Prior to mash. It helped with dust getting into kettel..but then again I wasn't happy with my BIAB/PM results so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[GnenieGone]

That's a comment I haven't seen before. Did you do any kind of comparison testing, to rule out your own confirmation bias?

I'm not saying you didn't notice a difference, you did. I'm wondering why you did. Was there something about your BIAB process that was off, or were you skeptical of BIAB, and that influenced your taste perception?

Lots of people are brewing very good beer with BIAB, and there are awards to prove it, so something seems amiss.

I know great, well done, and mediocre beer. I went from great/good to good/mediocre finished beers. Could just be lack of focus. I was working 65hrs/week the 1st half of the year. Now I'm working on remodling...so the 2hr brew kept me going. I'll do both from here on. I admit I love clear wort from the mash tun..may be mental stuff. [emoji6]

 

[BrewinBromanite]

I haven’t brewed anything bigger than 8% ABV, but now that I’m doing full volume mashed in a 10.5 gal kettle, could go higher. There’s a good “how much can I mash” calculator out there that would give you the max mash size for your kettle.

Also, BIAB is AG, if using AG. I think PianoMan mentioned doing BIAB/PM’s, so the flavor could be coming from use of the portion of LME or DME. I seemed to experience a similar dissatisfaction when doing PM’s when making the switch to AG. Hard to describe what it was, but I didn’t like it as much. But there’s no real difference so to speak with AG in a traditional system vs BIAB-AG. Getting the same thing done in either case. And I’ve always squeezed the bag to some degree. I don’t personally believe tannins are an issue from a little squeezing unless you were using some mechanical press or something.

 

[rjs3273]

Also, I would have bought a 1/2" 50' stainless immersion chiller instead of screwing around with DIY.

At the risk of going off topic, do you have that now and having success? I have a 50' stainless chiller and pretty disappointed with it. It is only 3/8" rather than 1/2".

 

[rjs3273]

Trying to figure out if double crush will be enough, or if I need to invest in a new mill?

Well I can give you my numbers. Take with a pinch of salt because there are so many other variables, but here are the mash conversion efficiencies for the last few mashes I did...

Major online retailer because they had a sale so cheap I couldn't help myself. Lots of whole grains visible in the crush: 87% 90% 84% 72%

Local homebrew shop where I double crushed for myself: 94% 91%

Finally bought my own mill and only done two mashes so far: 93% 98%

These numbers are not super accurate. They are quick value based on BrauKaiser's approximation tables that assume the fine grind extraction of everything is 80%. I did not go through and check the spec sheets on every malt individually. I did that for a couple mashes and the real numbers came in so close to 80% I lost enthusiasm to do any more.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif

 

[RevKev]

My only regret is Weldless fittings. What a PITA sometimes.

Get welded and a 20 gallon kettle. I've done huge stouts and small five gallon batches of ale

 

[GnenieGone]

I haven’t brewed anything bigger than 8% ABV, but now that I’m doing full volume mashed in a 10.5 gal kettle, could go higher. There’s a good “how much can I mash” calculator out there that would give you the max mash size for your kettle.

Also, BIAB is AG, if using AG. I think PianoMan mentioned doing BIAB/PM’s, so the flavor could be coming from use of the portion of LME or DME. I seemed to experience a similar dissatisfaction when doing PM’s when making the switch to AG. Hard to describe what it was, but I didn’t like it as much. But there’s no real difference so to speak with AG in a traditional system vs BIAB-AG. Getting the same thing done in either case. And I’ve always squeezed the bag to some degree. I don’t personally believe tannins are an issue from a little squeezing unless you were using some mechanical press or something.

Yes..BIAB=AG. Should be specifically saying the use of a mash tun/sparge/vorlauf technique vs. straight up BIAB. Perhaps there's more to learn but biab almost seems like steeping then mashing?

 

[NeoBrew]

When I switched from extract I went to BIAB first. I was brewing in my garage and eventually started to want to control temp in the winter months. One thing led to another, then another, then another... Eventually I seemed to have most of what I needed to go to three vessel brewing, so I made the switch.

I do sometimes think about going back to BIAB. Things have gotten more complicated with RIMS and three vessels. I've also moved inside and don't have a readily accessible way to hoist the bag like I did in my garage so I have stuck with three vessel.

One tip I might give, if you really want to use your RIMS tube, and I can understand why, you might think about returning the wort outside the bag. This will avoid the stuck sparge even with finely ground grain. If you do introduce the wort back into the grains, make sure you start out with a very very slow flow. This helps set the grain bed without plugging up the mesh. Once things get going you may be able to increase flow.

 

[supermallard]

I do have regrets - mainly around handling the wet grain bag when removing it. If you're doing a 10gal batch or more it's going to be heavy. Couple that with one misstep and you've got issues. There are workarounds though.

 

[supermallard]

I do have regrets - mainly around handling the wet grain bag when removing it. If you're doing a 10gal batch or more it's going to be heavy. Couple that with one misstep and you've got issues. There are workarounds though.

I should add that I dropped the full grain bag once. Once. Back into the kettle. The wort geyser that resulted tested my GFCI outlet sufficiently. I never did BIAB again. Maybe I should have had a winch.

 

[beerbomb]

I made the switch from extract brewing to BIAB a few months ago. I bought a 15 gallon pot with strainer basket all stainless. I use a paint strainer bag. I am very satisfied with the process and have been doing SMaSH batches to learn about the malts and hops.
I'm so glad I made the switch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'll probably continue BIAB/PMs along with AGs when I want assured quality. For example made a Hefe with all DME and room temp RO, boiled hops on the side for 20min and added w/strainer, came out decent. But my quads and RISs will be AG.

When you say "BIAB/PM", are you doing what others might describe as a "mini-mash" or "partial-mash"?

 

[jcom87]

I've got the Brewers Edge Mash & Boil and I love it. It comes in at a very affordable $300, and it's 110v, and rips through a 5 gallon boil just fine. There's also a handy feature where I can set a timer, so it starts heating my strike water. Then when I'm ready to brew I just mash in right away. I'll never turn back. The simplicity of brew day, the ease of cleaning and sanitizing. And I can sit and relax while it's going instead of constantly hovering. I don't have kids, but I will at some point and I know I won't have the time I do now. That makes simplifying the process the obvious choice for me.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Yes..BIAB=AG. Should be specifically saying the use of a mash tun/sparge/vorlauf technique vs. straight up BIAB. Perhaps there's more to learn but biab almost seems like steeping then mashing?

Perhaps just some miscommunication with terminology. I’m not understanding why BIAB-AG would be like steeping more than mashing. Whether using a traditional AG setup or an AG BIaB setup, the goal is exactly the same. You’re holding a specific amount of grain and water at a specific temperature for a specific time, with the primary goal of starch conversion and a fermentable wort.

Perhaps your BIAB process is more like a partial mash, where you are instead holding the grains used (probably more for flavor and color from the grains) at a somewhat higher temperature (what I’d describe as a steep), not to create a fermentable wort, but instead primarily to extract the flavor, color and some less fermentable dextrins for body and flavor; then adding that to the remaining water and LME/DME per your recipe to arrive at your desired OG.

Lots of ways to skin the cat here, I think, and get to a similar place.

 

[GnenieGone]

I did both ag and pm with biab...like I said, probably just need to work with it more.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

At the risk of going off topic, do you have that now and having success? I have a 50' stainless chiller and pretty disappointed with it. It is only 3/8" rather than 1/2".

Not yet, unfortunately. I want something sturdy enough that I won't worry about supporting the hoses when I have it running. I jury-rigged something out of copper fittings, but I really don't like it and by the time I was done, I spent more than had I bought something decent from the start.

 

[RevKev]

6 and change gallons into the fermenter. It's 34lbs of grain with decent efficiency, could've been better with better control. BIAB is the lazy man's best friend

 

[KLMtheReal]

Hey mate, I'm kinda new to homebrewing myself, with 15 batches in my notebook. I just moved to MX (I think lol?) where I use beer kits with some all grain (and extra hop boiling sometimes) due to short budget. First thing I'm doing this year is moving to BIAB, no second thoughts

My homebrewing shop owner, even though he built a complete "lab" with pro equipment, still swears by it! He says that, with a large enough kettle (75 litres or so), you can even brew bigger beers with great success, good efficiency etc.

 

[RM-MN]

Hey mate, I'm kinda new to homebrewing myself, with 15 batches in my notebook. I just moved to MX (I think lol?) where I use beer kits with some all grain (and extra hop boiling sometimes) due to short budget. First thing I'm doing this year is moving to BIAB, no second thoughts

My homebrewing shop owner, even though he built a complete "lab" with pro equipment, still swears by it! He says that, with a large enough kettle (75 litres or so), you can even brew bigger beers with great success, good efficiency etc.

The efficiency for any all grain system depends much on the milling of the grain. You have limitations on how finely the grain can be milled on a conventional mash tun as you need the larger particles to form the filter. In BIAB the bag forms the filter so you can mill very fine which shortens the mash period and increases the mash efficiency so you can make a high gravity beer with less grains which then leads to better efficiency.

 

[KLMtheReal]

The efficiency for any all grain system depends much on the milling of the grain. You have limitations on how finely the grain can be milled on a conventional mash tun as you need the larger particles to form the filter. In BIAB the bag forms the filter so you can mill very fine which shortens the mash period and increases the mash efficiency so you can make a high gravity beer with less grains which then leads to better efficiency.

That seems pretty logical. So in a typical mash, say 60 minutes, with finer milled grains, how much time could you shred approximately? I always thought the timing is identical to a classic AG method..

 

[RM-MN]

That seems pretty logical. So in a typical mash, say 60 minutes, with finer milled grains, how much time could you shred approximately? I always thought the timing is identical to a classic AG method..

I don't recommend mashing for less than 30 minutes. Conversion of starch to sugars can happen much quicker but extracting the flavor takes more time.

 

[LittleRiver]

I do have regrets - mainly around handling the wet grain bag ... I dropped the full grain bag once. .. wort geyser.... I never did BIAB again. Maybe I should have had a winch.

An actual winch is overkill. All you need is an overhead anchor point, a couple of pulleys, and a length of 1/4" rope. The pulleys give you a mechanical advantage, making the bag easy to lift. If one of the pulleys is ratcheting (like the ones Wilser sells in his kit), then the bag can only go "up" unless you press the ratchet release lever.

Hoist the bag and let gravity fully drain it into the kettle. There's no need to squeeze. The fully drained bag is light and easy to handle when it comes time to dispose of the spent grains.

 

[Tim Schmidt]

I use a cheap tie down stray i picked up at walmart for like 5 bucks. they have them in the area where they have their hardware.
press button with thumb and pull the strap that is above the thumb in the pic. works great for raise and lower biab.

Biab Strap

• Tim Schmidt
• Oct 8, 2018

 

[GoeHaarden]

admit I love clear wort from the mash tun..may be mental stuff.

Lol...me too, man, me too!

I haven’t brewed anything bigger than 8% ABV, but now that I’m doing full volume mashed in a 10.5 gal kettle, could go higher. There’s a good “how much can I mash” calculator out there that would give you the max mash size for your kettle.

That's good to know. That's really as high as I probably need to go anyways. I've only made a couple RIS(s) and don't do it on the regular so it's not a big deal. The rest of my brews probably stay below 7.5%

Major online retailer because they had a sale so cheap I couldn't help myself. Lots of whole grains visible in the crush: 87% 90% 84% 72%

Any idea as to why the 72%? Just variability in online crushes? I didn't think it would be that sensitive to crush, but maybe it is?

I should add that I dropped the full grain bag once. Once. Back into the kettle. The wort geyser that resulted tested my GFCI outlet sufficiently. I never did BIAB again. Maybe I should have had a winch.

I didn't think about this as an issue, but I do know. I imagined your incident in my head and it's a little scary. Yeah, I know others have suggested a good anchor point above but if something can fail it will...

I've got the Brewers Edge Mash & Boil and I love it

Thats a pretty good price, and I've started looking into these all-in-ones since I've considered BIAB. Not completely sold, maybe it I was just starting out and didn't have any equipment. For now, I think I've settled on just using what I have at the moment.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I’m not understanding why BIAB-AG would be like steeping more than mashing

Well, isn't BIAB technically just a giant "tea-bag"

 

[supermallard]

Lol...me too, man, me too!



That's good to know. That's really as high as I probably need to go anyways. I've only made a couple RIS(s) and don't do it on the regular so it's not a big deal. The rest of my brews probably stay below 7.5%



Any idea as to why the 72%? Just variability in online crushes? I didn't think it would be that sensitive to crush, but maybe it is?



I didn't think about this as an issue, but I do know. I imagined your incident in my head and it's a little scary. Yeah, I know others have suggested a good anchor point above but if something can fail it will...



Thats a pretty good price, and I've started looking into these all-in-ones since I've considered BIAB. Not completely sold, maybe it I was just starting out and didn't have any equipment. For now, I think I've settled on just using what I have at the moment.

I should clarify, I did have a pulley / ratchet setup. My issue was my grain bag was in a metal basket, and for a ten gallon size. I had drained it but it was still heavy, and removing it from the hook I dropped it. Because of my hood setup, i did not have the best removal process. I couldn't just lower the basket easily.

I'm sure you could come up with a safer version; I was just impatient in my design. I did have some successful brews prior to the disaster.

 

[rjs3273]

Any idea as to why the 72%? Just variability in online crushes? I didn't think it would be that sensitive to crush, but maybe it is?

To try and answer that I have just been back through my logs and spreadsheet that collates all these numbers. It turns out that mash is the only occasion I have ever noted "very coarse crush" in the comments column. In fact looking at my log book it is actually the only time I have ever felt moved to write any comment at all about the crush so it clearly stood out to me in some way. I am terribly reticent to really attribute it to any one thing, but it seems significant.

I still have half a pound of it left in my toy box so I just tried to sieve it. I do not have proper assay sieves. All I did was put it through a kitchen colander with large (3.06±0.05mm) holes which is far far bigger than any conventional crush assay would use. I mean even some whole uncrushed grain will go through a 3mm whole. I had 33.8% by mass left in the top so that is entirely made up of husks and over 50% whole grains. I have never sieved anything that I would consider a 'normal' crush through that colander so I don't think it really tells you much useful.

Other possible reasons, looking through my logbook: Mash thickness (1.7qt/lb) was well within the typical range I use. Mash temperature was 65C and stays between 64.8 and 65.8C for a full hour. I gave up at 70min and logbook says there still seemed to be slight iodine reaction. pH was a bit high at 5.6.

Was it just the crush? Who knows. On the other hand, it finally convinced me to buy myself a mill so I reckon it turned out pretty well in the end!

 

[rjs3273]

And I just double checked the manufacturer's spec. sheet for the malt. It was Briess Ashburne malt which lists a fine grind extract of 79%. As previously noted my calculations assumed 80%, so the 72% I got should maybe be promoted to 73%, but it is still the lowest I have ever seen.

 

[GoeHaarden]

It turns out that mash is the only occasion I have ever noted "very coarse crush" in the comments column. In fact looking at my log book it is actually the only time I have ever felt moved to write any comment at all about the crush so it clearly stood out to me in some way.

That's enough evidence for me. Lol. I'm doing my mill research now, and I'm at a loss. I had a used cereal killer a year or so back but it broke and I gave it away. It seemed to do okay. I feel like I should bite the bullet and just get a monster mill MM3, but at the same time it seems like people get equal results with lesser mills (or less expensive anyhow). I'm not above running it through twice and tightening the gap...

 

[RevKev]

That's enough evidence for me. Lol. I'm doing my mill research now, and I'm at a loss. I had a used cereal killer a year of so back but it broke and I gave it away. It seemed to do okay. I feel like I should bite the bullet and just get a monster mill MM3, but at the same time it seems like people get equal results with lesser mills (or less expensive anyhow). I'm not above running it through twice and tightening the gap...

I get great conversion, got mine from beverage factory, they have coupons for either 10 off or multiple percent off.. This has decent bearings, holds a setting for a long while and hasn't let me down yet.

Never used a monster mill, but head I think augie talk about them, this chinesium knock off has been great. Maybe others could chime in, only thing I wished for (especially since I just milled 33lb of grain this Sunday) was a bigger hopper. But a quick trip to HD soon and some bending on a sheet metal brake I'll make my own.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I get great conversion, got mine from beverage factory, they have coupons for either 10 off or multiple percent off.. This has decent bearings, holds a setting for a long while and hasn't let me down yet.

Never used a monster mill, but head I think augie talk about them, this chinesium knock off has been great. Maybe others could chime in, only thing I wished for (especially since I just milled 33lb of grain this Sunday) was a bigger hopper. But a quick trip to HD soon and some bending on a sheet metal brake I'll make my own. View attachment 592092View attachment 592093View attachment 592094

I like your mill cabinet. Very cool! I assume you just run a drill? I don't want to spend the $$$ on a motor on top of the mill so I'll be using a drill, and I don't know what long term wear/damage I'd being doing to a MM3 with a drill outside the suggested RPM range. For the price I could almost buy two cheaper mills..

 

[RevKev]

I like your mill cabinet. Very cool! I assume you just run a drill? I don't want to spend the $$$ on a motor on top of the mill so I'll be using a drill, and I don't know what long term wear/damage I'd being doing to a MM3 with a drill outside the suggested RPM range. For the price I could almost buy two cheaper mills..

Thanks man!! Very happy with it, besides the epoxy haha that's another story. But it does keep the dust down I'm an apartment brewer.

I have a makita brushless that operates 0-500 RPMs and if you really want you can put a little clamp on it and dial it in. Only harm I've noticed to my mill with a drill is the chuck marring the drive shaft a tiny bit. I feel like the drill being unsupported could eventually cause issues with alignment but checking that isn't an issue. The only problem with mills for HBers is they are meant to last, the bearing will wear out before anything else.

Don't buy a motor.. Waste. If you have a corded or cordless it'll work fine until it doesn't you have other priorities first. My two cents for what it's worth

 

[GoeHaarden]

Thanks man!! Very happy with it, besides the epoxy haha that's another story. But it does keep the dust down I'm an apartment brewer.

I have a makita brushless that operates 0-500 RPMs and if you really want you can put a little clamp on it and dial it in. Only harm I've noticed to my mill with a drill is the chuck marring the drive shaft a tiny bit. I feel like the drill being unsupported could eventually cause issues with alignment but checking that isn't an issue. The only problem with mills for HBers is they are meant to last, the bearing will wear out before anything else.

Don't buy a motor.. Waste. If you have a corded or cordless it'll work fine until it doesn't you have other priorities first. My two cents for what it's worth

Hah! I love epoxy, but I do understand it's sometimes finicky nature. Still one of my favorite things in my shop regardless...

I'm definitely not going to buy a set RPM/mill motor. Those things are like $300 and up. However, I might try some DIY 12v kid car motor or a giant wheel to decrease RPMS if I can keep costs reasonable. Until then, I'd be running a drill...

 

[NeoBrew]

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-heavy-duty-spade-handle-drill-63112.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/router-speed-control-43060.html

I use these two together to power my MM3. It works well enough for me. It is sometimes stressed out a bit and can even get a little warm in the 2 minutes it takes to mill most of my 5 gallon batches, but for the price it can't be beat. It's also nice that it can be put away and stored with minimal space. I'd love a dedicated cabinet/motor, but it's just one more thing to put away and store!

 

[jdauria]

Switched to BIAB from two cooler system in 2014 and never looked back. No more heavy lifting, except for carrying the carboy in the house. Less stuff to clean. Double crushing grain a must, better if you have your own mill so you can tighten gap. Some people will tell you cannot make clear beer with BIAB, but those people are wrong, here's my latest beer, a Munich Helles.

 

[LittleRiver]

I have the Kegco 3 roller mill. No complaints whatsoever. I drive it with this drill, which is similar to the one posted above, but this model has a little rotary control on the trigger for setting a constant speed.

 

[RM-MN]

No more heavy lifting, except for carrying the carboy in the house.

Buckets have handles for convenient carrying and will bounce a bit if dropped.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Some people will tell you cannot make clear beer with BIAB, but those people are wrong, here's my latest beer, a Munich Helles.

That brew defines clear beer. Looks refreshing. I've never gotten too bent out of shape about having clear beer, and it's usually nothing a little cold crashing can't fix.

No complaints whatsoever.

So I've come to one conclusion, the monster mill is out. I'm not above a Chinese knock-off if the quality is there, I've accepted the global economy. Lol. With that said, I've also realized that this process of trying to go BIAB, for me anyways, is about being a more efficient brewer. Not just mash/brewhouse efficiency but in every other aspect to include time and costs. So if people are using corona mills with similar results as other mills, then I may be game for some ugly junk. Just haven't decided. $30 sounds a lot better than $150, but if in the end it turns out to be $180 because I don't like the corona then the savings is all a wash anyways...

************

As for time saving, how many of you are doing 30 minute or less mashes? @RM-MN I found a thread where you were experimenting with shorter mash times and whatnot, can't find it now. Ever come to a conclusion as to the best time for mashing without any ill effects to the final product?

EDIT: I also found a another thread (maybe the same) talking about short mashes, and someone linked one of the pro forums. In the pro-forum, there were some comments laughing at homebrewers and their shiny HERMS systems. Pretty much saying the systems are unnecessary as conversion is done in 20 minutes and that's what most of them were mashing for...Just found it interesting!

 

[RM-MN]

As for time saving, how many of you are doing 30 minute or less mashes? @RM-MN I found a thread where you were experimenting with shorter mash times and whatnot, can't find it now. Ever come to a conclusion as to the best time for mashing without any ill effects to the final product?

I don't recommend a mash shorter than 30 minutes. While the conversion might be done way sooner, the flavor isn't extracted nearly as quickly.

If you don't mind a few days wait for shipping, this mill is under $30 and identical to the one I have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Manua...620018?hash=item1a5b57a432:g:ZT8AAOSws0hbcqcK

 

[GoeHaarden]

I don't recommend a mash shorter than 30 minutes. While the conversion might be done way sooner, the flavor isn't extracted nearly as quickly.

If you don't mind a few days wait for shipping, this mill is under $30 and identical to the one I have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Manua...620018?hash=item1a5b57a432:g:ZT8AAOSws0hbcqcK

Gotcha. I guess anything less than my 60 minutes is a win.

Also, you can essentially get a true gravity reading on the fly with full volume BIAB? Since you won't be diluting it? Or am I missing something?

Thanks for the link. I haven't been able to find them under $30 including shipping, but for 20 bucks I can deal with long shipping. What a deal. Lol. What would you say your mash efficiency is? Not a deal breaker by any means, just curious!?