Thermoelectric fermentor temp control

[rudylyon57]

Has anyone ever used something like this for fermentation temp control?

Looks like it may have some potential. Maybe after a high amp 12VDC power supply and heat sinks are added it gets cumbersome and complex?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E4GY0FC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[BrunDog]

Seriously? Search thermoelectric or peltier and be enlightened. Can be done but not well or easily or efficiently.

-BD

 

[jakenbacon]

Ya, they are used here and there throughout brewing. I have a nucool fridge that I scored for free because it wasn't working, and it uses two peltier cooling cells. You are right, that if you build your own (heatsinks, power supply, fans, and cells) the cost probably wouldn't be worth it. But for me, buying a 20 dollar, 12v, 20amp power supply, and using my existing temp controller, it was a cheap fix, and well worth it. My peltier fridge gets only 30 degrees below ambient, but that is plenty for fermenting. I had a cell go out a year or two into use, but 5 bucks got me a pack of three new ones, and I love being able to fix my own fridge if ever needed. Doesn't matter what breaks from here on out really, because it can be fixed for just so damn cheap. So, if you can find an existing peltier cooling device that is maybe broken or something, that is really the only case I can see it being worth it. If you need help with your set up let me know and I can show you what I have done. Good luck!

 

[rudylyon57]

Ya, they are used here and there throughout brewing. I have a nucool fridge that I scored for free because it wasn't working, and it uses two peltier cooling cells. You are right, that if you build your own (heatsinks, power supply, fans, and cells) the cost probably wouldn't be worth it. But for me, buying a 20 dollar, 12v, 20amp power supply, and using my existing temp controller, it was a cheap fix, and well worth it. My peltier fridge gets only 30 degrees below ambient, but that is plenty for fermenting. I had a cell go out a year or two into use, but 5 bucks got me a pack of three new ones, and I love being able to fix my own fridge if ever needed. Doesn't matter what breaks from here on out really, because it can be fixed for just so damn cheap. So, if you can find an existing peltier cooling device that is maybe broken or something, that is really the only case I can see it being worth it. If you need help with your set up let me know and I can show you what I have done. Good luck!

jakenbacon- I appreciate your input and offer for help. At this stage I would be starting from scratch with a blank sheet of paper. In any event, I'm glad to hear that they are being used. I am intrigued by their simplicity.

 

[DeBrewer]

I spent a fair amount of time tinkering with Peltier elements a few years back. They are quite inefficient but as you rightfully stated, very simplistic. There are a few commercial examples that use them though. Brew Jacket is a very clean and simple execution. I messed around with one in person and was impressed. If I were only running 1 fermenter at a time, I would definitely use it. They are quite cost prohibitive when buying multiples.

http://www.brewjacket.com/

 

[jakenbacon]

jakenbacon- I appreciate your input and offer for help. At this stage I would be starting from scratch with a blank sheet of paper. In any event, I'm glad to hear that they are being used. I am intrigued by their simplicity.

I agree that the simplicity of this type of cooling is awesome. I have attached some pics of my setup. Like I stated before, I got this fridge not working, and for free, and when it was plugged in, nothing would happen. So I started at the power source. These particular fridges have like a control board/ power board hybrid thing going on, so I initially thought I couldn't save it, but then I realized I could just provide power to the things necessary to cool (fans, cells), and let my temp controller do the rest. So I cut out the board, found the nuetral and power wires for each of the 2 cells, and 4 fans, and simply ran them to the new 12v, 20 amp led power supply. Sure enough, I was cooling! Because I cut out that control board though, the fridge would simply always run when plugged in, so I just used my temp controller with probe like I would use with any other fridge and what do you know, I have myself a sweet little fermenting fridge. Uses a little over 150 watts, and there is no compressor hump, which is fantastic....

 

[BrunDog]

If you are doing Ales only, TEC's make sense. For Lagers, you don't have much of a chance for it to be easy.

I did research building a very well insulated fermenting chamber with liquid blocks on both sides of the for the TEC. Not only that, I sourced a 26A TEC for maximum heat pump. The problem with TECs is they are very inefficient and become overloaded at removing large quantities of heat. My design would theoretically get down to freezing, but I ended up opting for modifying a dehumidifer instead, as the costs were comparable and the efficiency/cooling power were much better.

Anyway, it certainly can be done.

-BD

 

[rudylyon57]

I think I can pull this off easily....

- Wood construction making for a well insulated box.
- Two or three thermoelectric elements sandwiched between two finned aluminum extrusions as heat exchangers. May use some 1/2" aluminum blocks to provide more room for insulation between the hot/cold backsides of the heat exchange plates.
- Boxed and ducted with external and internal fans to circulate air across the separated finned members.
- STC 1000 controller using relay logic to swap polarity on elements depending on need for cooling or heating.
- Two or four PC cooling fans.
- 12 VDC power supply.

Fun project. I bet I'll only have $100 in it for materials when complete.

Thanks for the inspiration.

 

[BrunDog]

Good luck and keep us informed. Pictures rule. Also, again, I would suggest a search through this forum to learn from others' experiences.

-BD

 

[Vesteroid]

I posted this elsewhere today, so ...

Stouts website has a pdf where a customer did a set up for their fermenters and its very well documented.

You can get a lot of good ideas from that doc.

 

[rudylyon57]

I posted this elsewhere today, so ...

Stouts website has a pdf where a customer did a set up for their fermenters and its very well documented.

You can get a lot of good ideas from that doc.

Thanks Vesteroid. Do you have a URL for stouts website?

 

[KartRacer54]

Fans and heat sinks for the 10 amp unit is on the way. Paid 8.50 ea on the fan / heatsink combo. I have a high amp power supply but they are not terribly expensive from alibaba express.

 

[augiedoggy]

I posted this elsewhere today, so ...

Stouts website has a pdf where a customer did a set up for their fermenters and its very well documented.

You can get a lot of good ideas from that doc.

Stout actually sells the peltier kits for their fermenters complete with curved cooling sinks for the outside.

I bought a peltier to check it out and have a spare since my fridge in my popup camper uses one.... decided they use too much power for what I need so I bought a $60 "coolzone" cooling jacket that goes around my conical or carboys and I control cooling with a chiller and a flexible heating strip. now I have built a control system that can control 4 fermenters all plumbed off the same chiller.
all you need to make a chiller is an old window ac unit and a cooler.

 

[augiedoggy]

I spent a fair amount of time tinkering with Peltier elements a few years back. They are quite inefficient but as you rightfully stated, very simplistic. There are a few commercial examples that use them though. Brew Jacket is a very clean and simple execution. I messed around with one in person and was impressed. If I were only running 1 fermenter at a time, I would definitely use it. They are quite cost prohibitive when buying multiples.

http://www.brewjacket.com/

that unit is honestly waay overpriced for the fact that it cost about $30-50 to make.

 

[alphaomega]

I think I can pull this off easily....

I'd like this comment, but probably for the wrong reasons. Classic U1 statement
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you can build it and your plan isn't half bad. But chances are you will be disappointed (as many have been before you).
TEC's do require you to do your homework. You are better off using many TEC's, but at lower voltage (like 6-9v). Using a 12v supply, you can put two TEC's in series.
But most of all you need very good cooling of the hot side.
Even so, you'd need to have realistic expectations of their performance. Like @BrunDog hinted at, maintaining ale temps at normal room temp should be easy, but lowering the temperature will be slow. Don't expect to be able to cold crash or even maintain lager fermentation temps. This is just due to the properties of TEC's. They can only achieve that much temp differential between hot and cold side.
Also, if a TEC is rated at 80W for example, it doesn't mean it will move 80W worth of thermal power. It simply means it draws 80W electricity at the rated voltage. The majority of that will just become heat (which is why you really need to oversize the cooling on the hot side, remember that only a certain dT can be achieved. If hot side actually is hot, you have no chance of getting cold side cool).

 

[DeBrewer]

that unit is honestly waay overpriced for the fact that it cost about $30-50 to make.

I don't disagree that the parts to make it seem cheap, but honestly how many people do you see engineering a TEC based solution that is immersed? Not many. Everyone wants to slap a bunch of them on the outside of a vessel and call it a day. I tried it myself, lots of testing ended in lackluster results. I am in no way affiliated with the company but after actually working with one in person, it is an elegant solution.

 

[BrunDog]

If you go this route, I suggest you do not air cool the hot side. You must liquid cool it. Expect 3-4 times as much heat to be removed from the hot side as is pumped from the cold side. This requires a pump, reservoir, block, radiator, etc. I had designed a liquid cooling configuration for both hot and cold sides, and by the time all the hardware was added up, I just decided to use a dehumidifier/cooler combo to make a chiller. It works like a beast, can cool my chamber to below freezing, and can be adapted to cool more chambers.

As alphaomega said, temp differential becomes a major issue when trying to remove lots of heat. Therefore, they are very self limiting. I also suggest you make your chamber very well insulated. Can't be insulated enough.

Many designs have been proven better with appropriate attention - so keep us informed on your progress.

-BD

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't disagree that the parts to make it seem cheap, but honestly how many people do you see engineering a TEC based solution that is immersed? Not many. Everyone wants to slap a bunch of them on the outside of a vessel and call it a day. I tried it myself, lots of testing ended in lackluster results. I am in no way affiliated with the company but after actually working with one in person, it is an elegant solution.

Good point but actually I have seen those before sold for salt water reef tanks with rods that go into the refugum but they are coated so the salt water doesnt eat the aluminum.

One neat thing about these peltiers is you can reverse them from cooling to heating by swapping the power polarity.
So it is possible to wire them up to a controller and a relay that reverses the polarity and will make them switch from cooling to heating with the same device...

 

[DeBrewer]

One neat thing about these peltiers is you can reverse them from cooling to heating by swapping the power polarity.
So it is possible to wire them up to a controller and a relay that reverses the polarity and will make them switch from cooling to heating with the same device...

I don't disagree with the beauty of their simplicity in comparison to the functionality provided. I have a pile of them laying around that I played with and still think they are a possible solution. I am just somewhat jaded in the approach that most take. I do hope that others behind me will continue to struggle and subsequently create something novel that we have yet to try that will make this a viable solution!

 

[Vesteroid]

that unit is honestly waay overpriced for the fact that it cost about $30-50 to make.

I believe that is an unfair assumption on your part. You have no way of knowing what the enclosure, electronics, and brew jacket cost to have produced, much less the packaging and shipping.

I am sure he has a nice margin in it, but this cost more than 50 dollars to make.

 

[augiedoggy]

I believe that is an unfair assumption on your part. You have no way of knowing what the enclosure, electronics, and brew jacket cost to have produced, much less the packaging and shipping.

I am sure he has a nice margin in it, but this cost more than 50 dollars to make.

I do in fact have a good understanding on what it is and what it takes to actually have something like this manufactured in china (likely were these are made)
I have purchased all the components myself as I experimented with going this route... there is a 12v powersupply which costs about $7-10 a $12 digital temperature controller with probe. $6 peliter pad. and a cpu heatsink ($5?) as well as a plastic housing and aluminum cooling rod there are some other plastic pieces involved but its fairly simple for the $300 plus shipping especially with their bulk purchasing prices. If you compare what you get for the money to other products you will see there is quite a markup on these... In fact about a year ago the price was different every time you went to their web page to preorder them (The distributors where trying to get a handle on supply and demand to try to figure out what kind of markup to charge... The preorder prices varied dramatically and you had to basically pay now and wait till they had enough money in orders to have them made...

If you search here you will find the other thread which discussed it further.


many of the parts to assemble this are likely borrowed off the shelf components used from other applications such as the inexpensive peliter "chillers" made and marketed for aquariums like I mentioned earlier.

I dont know if you realise it has more to do with marketing and supply and demand than anything else.... a $100 pair of nike sneakers for example cost nike less than $5 to make... I repair electronics and machinery for a living... I see this kind of stuff all the time... a $2,200 stepper motor when bought from xerox for example cost us $40 if we ordered it from the manufacturer instead. Ive seen the same flat panel TV sold for $300 also sold for close to $700 and the only difference was the outer case, name brand on the case and the software loaded on the tuner board so the on screen display menus dont look the same... It pays to be an educated consumer.

 

[rudylyon57]

Thanks to everyone that offered advise and a glimpse of their own experiences and opinions. That's what makes this website so valuable to the brewing community.

Vesteroid..what is the URL for stouts website that you referred to. I have searched but unable to find it?

I use some pretty cool CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) software in my line of work so I may use it to create a model of the system. If anything it will output some nice eye candy.

To be continued as project progresses.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks to everyone that offered advise and a glimpse of their own experiences and opinions. That's what makes this website so valuable to the brewing community.

Vesteroid..what is the URL for stouts website that you referred to. I have searched but unable to find it?

I use some pretty cool CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) software in my line of work so I may use it to create a model of the system. If anything it will output some nice eye candy.

To be continued as project progresses.

these?
https://conical-fermenter.com/AL-Bl...g-Block-for-7-and-12.5-gallon-fermenters.html
they are $20 for the kits on ebay with include everything needed but the powersupply and the block of aluminum... any shop with a cnc machine can make those for you too for much less... Still these arent priced TOO bad considering and should have twice the cooling capability as the ones mentioned earlier and for about $150 total investment you could have the controller, powersupply and peltiers all wired up with the stout kit and running.