The untold mystery about sanitization....

[Etohmadness]

Hi all ,

There are many posts out there already covering parts about sanitization, but I still got some questions left behind unanswered...

For me, I really don't have a local brewing store anywhere near me, so there's a huge problem for me to get any decent sanitizers, is it okay for me to use ethanol or even bleach water to clean things? I've heard people saying using these will create some horrible left-behinds which might affect the brewing, but are there any better alternatives????

Also, is sanitization required only for good tasting beers? I mean being a not so classy beginner, getting alcohol is already satisfying enough for a first brew, but will the wild yeasts and bacterias affect overall the alcohol content? Or is not sanitizing just gonna give a bad taste and potentially some diseases

Lots of loveeee,
Etohmadness :3

 

[McKnuckle]

You have no access to online retailers like Amazon where you can buy some Star-San? It's pretty much essential for brewing. Because it's a no-rinse product, you are able to sanitize just before use, which isn't possible with bleach - since bleach must be rinsed completely.

If beer gets infected, it often smells and tastes bad, may ferment unpredictably and for a long time, making bottling impossible. And if your equipment becomes infected, you're stuck with a cleaning nightmare and/or replacement.

Blowing off sanitization is not really an option in brewing.

 

[Etohmadness]

You have no access to online retailers like Amazon where you can buy some Star-San? It's pretty much essential for brewing. Because it's a no-rinse product, you are able to sanitize just before use, which isn't possible with bleach - since bleach must be rinsed completely.

If beer gets infected, it often smells and tastes bad, may ferment unpredictably and for a long time, making bottling impossible. And if your equipment becomes infected, you're stuck with a cleaning nightmare and/or replacement.

Blowing off sanitization is not really an option in brewing.

I mean I technically can but I am not sure how long does it take
but I just can't wait to start my first batch!!!! Perhaps this batch will be just for fun and experiments, I'll still make the batch anyway regardless of the taste haha
So is sanitizing with ethanol or hot water (the idea is to get rid of bacterias right?) better than not sanitizing at all?

And also, just for fun, can I brew a batch of 8%-9% using normal bread yeasts? xd
thanks for replying :333

 

[RM-MN]

I've poured boiling water down the sides of my plastic bucket fermenter, swirled it around and poured it back out just before pouring in the wort. The bucket only remains sanitized until the plastic cools below 140F so you don't have much time to waste. StarSan is a wet sanitizer. As long as the surface remains wet with StarSan it is sanitary.

Bleach also works but....you need to remove all traces so it doesn't affect the taste of the beer which means rinsing with water. If your water is sanitary, this works.

 

[Professor Frink]

I would bite the bullet and get the Star-San, there's nothing quite as good. As far as bread yeast - I doubt it. One, those yeast have not been cultured to break down maltose. And bread yeast is likely not that ethanol tolerant, as it's not typically in that environment. You can try, but I wouldn't expect it to taste much like beer.

 

[khannon]

Sanitation is important. Star-san is probably one of the easiest solutions(no pun intended..). Buy the concentrate, mix some up, keep it in a spray bottle. You don't need much. If you use bleach, you need to get rid of it through thorough rinsing(and/or evaporating) If you truly have no access to star-san, you could use bleach, remember though, neither is a cleaner.. Things need to be clean before they are sanitary.

I'm not sure what you use to ferment in, but if it is heat tolerant (NO Glass, or certain plastics) no-chill and transferring hot(near boiling) to your fermenter will also provide a measure of comfort as the heat will kill most things as long as the vessel is clean going in.

Bread yeast will ferment, even pretty high depending on the strain, but you will not get the flavors you want. If yeast availability is tough, you should look at maintaining your own yeast(banking). It is not super hard once you get going, but does rely heavily on sanitation.

 

[DVCNick]

Amazon delivers in two days?
Order a bottle of Starsan and a pack of yeast now, and you'll have it in time for this weekend.

 

[Soulshine2]

Hi all ,

There are many posts out there already covering parts about sanitization, but I still got some questions left behind unanswered...

For me, I really don't have a local brewing store anywhere near me, so there's a huge problem for me to get any decent sanitizers, is it okay for me to use ethanol or even bleach water to clean things? I've heard people saying using these will create some horrible left-behinds which might affect the brewing, but are there any better alternatives????

Also, is sanitization required only for good tasting beers? I mean being a not so classy beginner, getting alcohol is already satisfying enough for a first brew, but will the wild yeasts and bacterias affect overall the alcohol content? Or is not sanitizing just gonna give a bad taste and potentially some diseases

Lots of loveeee,
Etohmadness :3

welcome to the forum.
Well,Im going to answer your question with another question ...would you eat in a restaurant if you knew it was dirty? Of course not, so why would you not want to make sure your brewing equipment was properly sanitized?
I'm frugal ( some people say Im cheap but theres a difference) and I dont like to spend more than I have to to get to the same final product. Cleaning your equipment is just cheap insurance to having good tasting beer or beer in general .If you get an infection , you'll be dumping it out.
Buy a jug of common household bleach , a container of Oxiclean scent free and then make sure you have star san and mix according to the instructions. It goes a long way .
I wash my equipment in a big cooler -bottles,buckets, measuring cups, my 1 hose ,ss spoon,funnel ... ANYTHING that may touch my beer gets soaked in 1 oz oxiclean/1 oz bleach in hot water in my 30 qt cooler. when its bottling time ,I sanitize everything with star san out of a trigger spray bottle. it only works when wet, and foam is good.

 

[Soulshine2]

I mean I technically can but I am not sure how long does it take
but I just can't wait to start my first batch!!!! Perhaps this batch will be just for fun and experiments, I'll still make the batch anyway regardless of the taste haha
So is sanitizing with ethanol or hot water (the idea is to get rid of bacterias right?) better than not sanitizing at all?

And also, just for fun, can I brew a batch of 8%-9% using normal bread yeasts? xd
thanks for replying :333

just be patient. You want to brew the right way so theres no sense being in a hurry especially for your first batch. Get the process down correctly step by step , make sure you understand the process before you start . Theres always one guy who jumps the gun and halfway through his first batch he forgot to buy something so hes in a panic.
Dont be that guy.
buy a kit, read ALL the instructions and have your equipment laid out so you know you have everything before you actually need it.
bread yeast, you could use it but it wont turn out right . I mean you could if you were making something that you'll be distilling but thats another forum and different equipment altogether. I wouldnt start with attempting a big beer anyway. stick with a 5% for your first one.
Hot water alone will not sanitize.
what kind/style of beer do you like to drink?

 

[mattdee1]

My goodness, no, do not try to skip sanitization in your process.

Starsan is an amazing product that makes things so easy. It's almost like a magic potion. I'm not sure I would bother with this hobby without the convenience that Starsan provides.

 

[McKnuckle]

To the OP, I think you'll find that most of the people who post on HBT, and definitely in the Beginner's section, have long since gotten over the novelty of "Wow, I can make alcohol!" You're not going to find anyone here who encourages you to cut really basic corners in the brewing process.

You can make alcohol with grocery store fruit juice, bread yeast, a jug, plastic wrap, and a rubber band. Who needs a forum for that? And besides, blech. Good beer is delicious and satisfying to make. Learning good techniques are part of earning that satisfaction.

If you still want to rush into making booze as an "experiment" (hint: it's been done before... not very experimental!), then go for it. It will work. Just don't expect store-bought quality in the final product.

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Bleach would be a last resort for me. Get powdered brewers wash. I use it without issue. Amazon.

 

[IslandLizard]

For me, I really don't have a local brewing store anywhere near me, so there's a huge problem for me to get any decent sanitizers...

You appear to be located outside the U.S.
It would be really helpful to list your (broad) location in your user profile. It may help prevent 70% of the replies sending you off to Amazon.

For beer, there are not that many sanitation options. Bleach is basically out as any trace left will ruin your beer.
Starsan is by far the easiest to use, as was pointed out before. It may not be cheap, but a working solution (6 ml per U.S. gallon) can last for months when kept clean, and/or use in a spray bottles for spot sanitizing.
An Iodine (povidone) based sanitizer is a good alternative for homebrewing. Some people swear by it. However, a working solution won't be active for more than a day. It's available as "Iodophor" and "IO-Star" in the U.S. but you can find similar products under the generic Povidone ingredient.

Now good cleaning is as important as sanitizing. You can't do the latter if you haven't done the first. IOW, You can't sanitize anything that's not clean in the first place.

For cleaning you'll need an alkaline cleaner, such as washing soda (sodium carbonate) or sodium percarbonate (sold in the U.S. under Oxiclean and Oxi-generics). It can be reinforced with a small amount of lye or, safer to use, with TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate) or TSP/90 (sodium metasilicate).

 

[Dland]

As noted, sanitation is important. If you can not get Starsan or iodine solution, a correctly diluted bleach solution will work, it is what most of us used in the dark ages of home brewing. It is bad for stainless steel equipment, especially over prolonged period. I don't recall it ruining the beer, but the bottles and equipment were well drained(upside down) before use.

Ethanol or isopropanol will also work in a pinch, and I have used these for spot sanitizing, but will get pretty expensive for use on whole system.

Remember to clean first before sanitizing, whatever product you use.

 

[jtratcliff]

Bleach can work... Acidified w/ a little vinnegar

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bleach-no-rinse-sanitizer-in-a-pinch.195477/
https://beerliever.com/bleach-no-rinse-sanitiser-home-brewing-beer/

 

[Robert65]

Get powdered brewers wash. I use it without issue. Amazon.

This is not a sanitizer!!!!!

It must be followed by a water rinse, acid rinse, water rinse, and then sanitizer.

First the surface must be clean. Only then can it be sanitized.

*****


Bleach can be made into a no rinse sanitizer, but the procedure must be followed precisely. Bleach must be diluted such that the solution contains exactly 80 ppm sodium hypochlorite. (Check the analysis on the label of the particular bottle of bleach to determine how to calculate this; various brands range from 5-9% sodium hypochlorite.) Then the pH must be adjusted with acid to exactly 5.0. At this pH, nearly all of the free chlorine is in the form of hypochlorous acid, the form that actually kills. At any lower pH, you will release dangerous chlorine gas. At higher pH, much more sodium hypochlorite is needed to achieve sufficient hypochlorous acid concentration, and then the solution must be thoroughly rinsed off to avoid having foul tasting chlorophenols in the beer.


Much easier to use Star San, or even better, iodophor.

*****

As others say, don't skimp on sanitation, neither cleaning nor sanitizing. Again, a surface that is not physically clean of debris, mineral deposits, biofilms, etc. cannot be sanitized.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Skip the sanitizing step haha its only a bad flavor but no problem for you LOL!
Brewing with baker's yeast? Wow that's a novel idea!

Hello again.

 

[RPh_Guy]

since bleach must be rinsed completely.

Bleach also works but....you need to remove all traces so it doesn't affect the taste of the beer which means rinsing with water.

is it okay for me to use ethanol or even bleach water to clean things?

If you use bleach, you need to get rid of it through thorough rinsing

Bleach is basically out as any trace left will ruin your beer.

This myth is alive and well apparently.

A no-rinse sanitizer can be made with bleach:
5 gallons water
Add 1oz distilled vinegar (5%)
Stir and then add 1oz bleach (around 8%)

The amount of chlorine is low enough that it does not need to be rinsed and will not cause off-flavors. Follow the links provided by @jtratcliff.

The procedure isn't as stringent as @Robert65 suggests, but it should be used in a well-ventilated area to avoid the possibility of inhaling chlorine gas.

If beer gets infected, it often smells and tastes bad, may ferment unpredictably and for a long time, making bottling impossible.

"Impossible" is too strong of a word, but yes, you absolutely should use some kind of sanitizer rather than creating problems for yourself.

can I brew a batch of 8%-9% using normal bread yeasts?

As far as bread yeast - I doubt it. One, those yeast have not been cultured to break down maltose. And bread yeast is likely not that ethanol tolerant, as it's not typically in that environment. You can try, but I wouldn't expect it to taste much like beer.

Bread yeast absolutely will make beer. Its attenuation will be similar to beer yeast and its alcohol tolerance is over 10% ABV.

Hot water alone will not sanitize.

Heat is arguably more effective than chemical sanitizers.

 

[jtratcliff]

Hot water alone will not sanitize.

Louis Pasteur would like a word...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

 

[grampamark]

I used bread yeast once, in a 2.5 gal batch made up of some leftover ingredients. The Wyeast smack pack was outdated, but it had swelled up, a little, when it came time to pitch. After 3 days and no visible signs of fermentation, I tossed in about half an ounce of Red Star bread yeast. I had vigorous fermentation within 8 hours. The beer, which was a sort of brown ale, and was about 1.050ish OG, tasted sort of bready. Not terrible, but not something I wanted to put into my regular rotation, either. But, yeah, bread yeast will definitely make beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

15g in 2.5 gal is way too much yeast.

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

This is not a sanitizer!!!!!

It must be followed by a water rinse, acid rinse, water rinse, and then sanitizer.

First the surface must be clean. Only then can it be sanitized.

I meant Northern Brewer no rinse oxywash. Instructions do not state any other steps other then clean in the oxywash. No rinse.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...MI0aKc4vK95wIVi__jBx111guQEAQYASABEgKMRfD_BwE


I have used it 3 times. No issues with bacterial growth or otherwise. I have other kits sent with a small packet of similar cleaner.

 

[grampamark]

15g in 2.5 gal is way too much yeast.

Yeah, but half an ounce is only 14g.

 

[RPh_Guy]

3 to 5 grams would have been more appropriate.

---

 

[danimal92sport]

I meant Northern Brewer no rinse oxywash. Instructions do not state any other steps other then clean in the oxywash. No rinse.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...MI0aKc4vK95wIVi__jBx111guQEAQYASABEgKMRfD_BwE


I have used it 3 times. No issues with bacterial growth or otherwise. I have other kits sent with a small packet of similar cleaner.

Yikes! That doesn’t look like a sanitizer to me. From the description, it reads as though it’s similar to OxiClean but easier to use for home brew equipment. That appears to be just what it’s called; a cleaner.

 

[Robert65]

I meant Northern Brewer no rinse oxywash. Instructions do not state any other steps other then clean in the oxywash. No rinse.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...MI0aKc4vK95wIVi__jBx111guQEAQYASABEgKMRfD_BwE


I have used it 3 times. No issues with bacterial growth or otherwise. I have other kits sent with a small packet of similar cleaner.

Nope. That is a cleaner. Not a sanitizer. It contains sodium percarbonate, like Oxiclean. The distinction they try to make between it and Oxiclean appears to be spurious at best. It (like Oxiclean) is not nearly as effective as a cleaner as those products, like PBW, that include sodium metasilicate and various other components like chelators and surfactants. Those do require rinsing, but at least they work. (In fact I would not risk using the Northern Brewer product as a no rinse either, if it is in fact what they say.)


The proper regimen for cleaning all brewing equipment is: 1) hot alkaline cleaner soak 2) hot water rinse 3) hot acid cleaner/rinse 4) thorough water rinse. Only then can equipment be considered clean. It should then be sanitized immediately before use, not earlier.

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Nope. That is a cleaner. Not a sanitizer. It contains sodium percarbonate, like Oxiclean. The distinction they try to make between it and Oxiclean appears to be spurious at best. It (like Oxiclean) is not nearly as effective as a cleaner as those products, like PBW, that include sodium metasilicate and various other components like chelators and surfactants. Those do require rinsing, but at least they work. (In fact I would not risk using the Northern Brewer product as a no rinse either, if it is in fact what they say.)


The proper regimen for cleaning all brewing equipment is: 1) hot alkaline cleaner soak 2) hot water rinse 3) hot acid cleaner/rinse 4) thorough water rinse. Only then can equipment be considered clean. It should then be sanitized immediately before use, not earlier.

The description NB states no rinse. Feel free to advise NB their description is wrong and the mix is not sanitizing. Just a cleaner. I'm interested in the response. My equipment is cleaned with hot water. I use NB no rinse. I also have a mixture in a spray bottle for use when needed. No swamp water growing here. I understand cleaning and sanitizing. I also understand extremes.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Nope. That is a cleaner. Not a sanitizer. It contains sodium percarbonate, like Oxiclean.

At what concentration does hydrogen peroxide become an effective anti-microbial?

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Yikes! That doesn’t look like a sanitizer to me. From the description, it reads as though it’s similar to OxiClean but easier to use for home brew equipment. That appears to be just what it’s called; a cleaner.

Explain it to NB and let me know what they say. It's all they have in a kit. One tsp in a gallon of water at 120 degrees. Let's sit for a minute or so. No rinse.

 

[GnenieGone]

I've poured boiling water down the sides of my plastic bucket fermenter, swirled it around and poured it back out just before pouring in the wort. The bucket only remains sanitized until the plastic cools below 140F so you don't have much time to waste. StarSan is a wet sanitizer. As long as the surface remains wet with StarSan it is sanitary.

Bleach also works but....you need to remove all traces so it doesn't affect the taste of the beer which means rinsing with water. If your water is sanitary, this works.

Do what he says.

 

[IslandLizard]

Explain it to NB and let me know what they say.

The description NB states no rinse. Feel free to advise NB their description is wrong and the mix is not sanitizing. Just a cleaner. I'm interested in the response.

Wouldn't you rather take advice from an experienced (home)brewer using products he recommends than from a salesman selling products he wants to sell?

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate kills bacteria correct? The endgame of sanitizing is to kill bacteria? If equipment is cleaned with hot water and possibly dish soap then rinsed, left to sit in sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate for a time it is not considered sanitized?

 

[Buick Beer Gardens]

Wouldn't you rather take advice from an experienced (home)brewer using products he recommends than from a salesman selling products he wants to sell?

Absolutely, however if an outfit such as NB is pulling the wool then all should know. Seems irresponsible to sell a kit with a cleaner that may or may not cause poor beer brewing and possibly getting one sick. But, there appears to be a lot of brew kits sold over a large group of sellers all shipping sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate as a cleaner. Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is a known bacteria and alge killer. Unwanted bacteria in a fermenter is the desire correct? Nothing else in the kit described acid bathes. Rinsing, etc.

 

[lump42]

Hi all ,

There are many posts out there already covering parts about sanitization, but I still got some questions left behind unanswered...

For me, I really don't have a local brewing store anywhere near me, so there's a huge problem for me to get any decent sanitizers, is it okay for me to use ethanol or even bleach water to clean things? I've heard people saying using these will create some horrible left-behinds which might affect the brewing, but are there any better alternatives????

Also, is sanitization required only for good tasting beers? I mean being a not so classy beginner, getting alcohol is already satisfying enough for a first brew, but will the wild yeasts and bacterias affect overall the alcohol content? Or is not sanitizing just gonna give a bad taste and potentially some diseases

Lots of loveeee,
Etohmadness :3

Technically any surface sufficiently clean will be sanitized enough for brewing, but no rinse sanitizers are another layer of protections. For my first several batches in a little brown fermentor, I just washed with dish soap and really hot water, followed by a triple rinse with really hot water (near scalding). I use star san for extra assurances to an infection, because I put too much work in for bad tasting beer.

 

[govner1]

I mean I technically can but I am not sure how long does it take
but I just can't wait to start my first batch!!!! Perhaps this batch will be just for fun and experiments, I'll still make the batch anyway regardless of the taste haha
So is sanitizing with ethanol or hot water (the idea is to get rid of bacterias right?) better than not sanitizing at all?

And also, just for fun, can I brew a batch of 8%-9% using normal bread yeasts? xd
thanks for replying :333

I think your biggest issue is a lack of patience!
Two of the main tenets for successful brewing are cleanliness (use B-Brite or PBW) to remove particulates, then sanitation, ie, StarSan.
The amount of time needed is minimal and if you follow the recipe instructions and maintain good temperature control during fermentation you shine rewarded not only with the alcohol you seek but a tasty beer!

 

[Soulshine2]

This myth is alive and well apparently.

A no-rinse sanitizer can be made with bleach:
5 gallons water
Add 1oz distilled vinegar (5%)
Stir and then add 1oz bleach (around 8%)

The amount of chlorine is low enough that it does not need to be rinsed and will not cause off-flavors. Follow the links provided by @jtratcliff.

The procedure isn't as stringent as @Robert65 suggests, but it should be used in a well-ventilated area to avoid the possibility of inhaling chlorine gas.

"Impossible" is too strong of a word, but yes, you absolutely should use some kind of sanitizer rather than creating problems for yourself.


Bread yeast absolutely will make beer. Its attenuation will be similar to beer yeast and its alcohol tolerance is over 10% ABV.

Heat is arguably more effective than chemical sanitizers.

ok , you guys can go play around with boiling water to sanitize your stuff , risk 3rd degree burns to yourselves and I'll use what I use ,because I know it works and is safe.
Anybody else read the post last week by the guy who did boil everything,burnt his hands repeatedly then was trying to prime each bottle individually instead of priming the batch?
Lets use some common sense here with the newbies, shall we?.

 

[Soulshine2]

Louis Pasteur would like a word...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

notice I said HOT , not boiling.

 

[lanev]

Lets use some common sense here with the newbies, shall we?

Total noob here, but this is exactly why I'm here. Best practices to get me to make drinkable beer and then on to good beer. PBW and Starsan all day long. I have no interest in waiting for that much water to boil and then scalding myself in the process.

 

[Soulshine2]

Total noob here, but this is exactly why I'm here. Best practices to get me to make drinkable beer and then on to good beer. PBW and Starsan all day long. I have no interest in waiting for that much water to boil and then scalding myself in the process.

thats the exact point i was trying to make. some people took my statement out of context.
btw- I answered your other post about books . good luck to you !!

 

[khannon]

ok , you guys can go play around with boiling water to sanitize your stuff , risk 3rd degree burns to yourselves and I'll use what I use ,because I know it works and is safe.
Anybody else read the post last week by the guy who did boil everything,burnt his hands repeatedly then was trying to prime each bottle individually instead of priming the batch?
Lets use some common sense here with the newbies, shall we?.

The new person in question was stating that they did not have access to Star-San or some of the other things that we take for granted with free next-day shipping. I was pointing out that no-chill brewing and transferring boiling or near boiling wort to a fermenter that could handle the temps before letting it cool there to pitching temps does a pretty good job of killing *most* things that would cause problems.
The added bonus is that if you live in a place (much of the world) where water is scarce, you help to conserve some water in the chilling process.