the case of the mysterious plastic taste

[badmajon]

My beer developed a plastic taste. But, before you go and say "chlorine!" (I've been googling), I know the water at my home is good because I brewed with it before and I had no problems (I just moved and this was the second beer I've brewed at my new home).

My recipe consisted of 7 lbs Maris Otter, 1/2 lb biscuit, 1/2 lb C40, and 1 lb of MO malt I toasted at 350 for 45 minutes in my oven. The yeast was Kolsch yeast... I know a poor choice for this, but it was all I had. I was experimenting.

It tasted fine coming out of the kettle when I did my gravity test, but 5 days after pitching, it developed an INTENSE plastic taste. Over the next week, the taste eased. It went from overpowering to just slightly off putting. It's still not a great beer, I'm just going to bottle it and see what happens.

My concern is, I don't want it to happen again. I don't think it is chlorine, b/c then my first beer at my new home (which was awesome) would have tasted like that too right? I even called the water company to ask about changes, and they said there hadn't been any.

The one thing I am thinking is stressed yeast. That yeast had been the other half of a huge starter I made. It sat in a plastic PET coke bottle for about 2 weeks in my fridge. But how that would stress it, I don't know.

The other thing is somehow the toasted MO fouled it up, which seems unlikely, but was the only real wildcard I introduced to my beer making process.

I use a fermentation chamber, and it was set to exactly the same setting as last time (the successful brew).

Ideas? I'm brewing again tomorrow!

 

[BigEd]

The most likely cause of plastic/Band-Aid/phenolic flavors are either a wild yeast contamination or fermentation at temperatures higher than the yeast's preferred range.

 

[badmajon]

Hmm, it wasn't #2 so maybe #1... I can't imagine how but I've made 15 batches since I started brewing last year so maybe my number just came up.

 

[o4_srt]

Im in the same boat as you. I made a cream ale using kolsch yeast, treated all brewing water with campden. Fermented for 3 weeks, and the first bottle I opened after 2 weeks in the bottle had a plasticy taste.

Also fermented at 62, which is within the recommended fermentation temperature.

Fermentation was completely normal, so I doubt it was a wild yeast infection.

I'm curious to see what happens with a little more time in the bottle.

 

[Chuginator]

Sounds like a yummy recipe!

Do the process of elimination. What was different? Have you ever come across this flavor before? What do you use for sanitizer? What was your fermentation temp? Have you ever used Kolsch yeast before?

 

[o4_srt]

Sounds like a yummy recipe!

Do the process of elimination. What was different? Have you ever come across this flavor before? What do you use for sanitizer? What was your fermentation temp? Have you ever used Kolsch yeast before?

As for my cream ale, nothing different except the kolsch yeast. I've never experienced this before, but I've never used kolsch before either. I know kolsch can be a slow performer, which is why I'm hoping it will fade with age.

Additionally, both the op and I used kolsch yeast: common denominator.

 

[badmajon]

The only thing that was different was the recipe and the addition of the home-toasted malt. I've never come across this flavor before, and I've made gross sanitation mistakes in the past which still didn't infect my beer (one time I made a beer and I mistook a bottle of water for starsan and nothing happened!).

I used this Kolsch yeast (WP029) once before with excellent results, I love it. The taste is incredibly clean and crisp, people thought it was a pilsner lager and the beer was only 10 days old. Fermented at 65 degrees F.

I made a huge 350 billion cell (approx) starter and I split it into two halfs, one I used immediately which gave me the wonder pilsner and the other half went into a used (but clean) coke bottle and sat in my fridge for a few weeks. When it came time to use the second half, I just let it warm to room temp and dumped it in.

Maybe this yeast is just iffy, and was stressed by sitting in my fridge? 04_srt, how did you pitch your yeast? Did you use a starter, was it sitting around for awhile, can you give more details?

 

[o4_srt]

No starter, but it was only a 3G batch. A small starter probably wouldn't have hurt, but didn't give myself enough time to make one. I just cooled my wort down to 70ish, pitched, shook to aerate, then threw in the basement to ferment.

I dont remember the date on the yeast vial (might be something worthwhile to document in the future), but it was the most fresh one at the lhbs.

 

[badmajon]

Hmm..

There is one thing I just realized- this is the first batch I have ever made using my new keggle. Before I was using an aluminum pot, now it's a SS 15.5 converted keg. Not sure how that'd effect the process though.

 

[Chuginator]

Now you have me even more curious. I wish I wish I wish you could make another batch with the same yeast but back with your aluminum pot. Reason being is I don't think I've ever gotten a "proper" batch out of my keggle, and I don't know why. Seems that there's always an off-flavor, and I suspect that maybe I'm having a sanitation issue with the ball valve or pickup tube.

I will have to do some searches when I get time to see if anyone else has had this problem with their SS keggles.

 

[drac0]

I've tasted infected beer that I can only explain as, "Tastes the way new vinyl smells".

This could be your problem though:

Phenolic

Phenolics are more prominent as an off-aroma, but also are imparted in the flavor of beer. It is described as medicinal, band-aid-like, smokey, clove-like, and plastic-like. Except in certain styles where small amounts are appropriate, phenols are hugely unacceptable.

There are many sources of contamination:

* Chlorophenols exist in municipal water supplies and residue from chlorine-based sanitizers. They can affect beer in parts-per-billion (ppb)! Avoidance of both should be given; find a substitute water supply and avoid chlorine-based sanitizers altogether.
* Phenols extracted from malt during the mash and sparge are polyphenols, also called tannins. They interact with proteins to form chill or permanent haze. If oxidized through hot-side aeration, they create oxidized fusel alcohols. Proper sparging, and avoidance of excessive sparging can reduce the phenolic production. Also, sparge water should be low in alkalinity, and not in excess of 167°F. Likewise, extract brewers should avoid boiling grains.
* Phenols are also derived from certain yeast strains that produce aromatic alcohols. Bavarian wheat beers produce acceptable levels of phenols by creating 4-vinyl guaiacol that results in a pleasing clovelike phenolic tone under the correct conditions. Careful selection of yeast can eliminate undesired affects.
* Wild yeast contamination can harbor within plastic-based equipment, such as polyethylene fermenters and plastic hoses. These materials as soft and permeable, hence difficult to clean. Wild yeasts such as S. diatatius produce minor wort phenols that impart medicinal off-flavors. Migration to glass and stainless replacements are the best solution. Also check for defective bottle caps.
* Smokey phenols are a byproduct of smoked malts, such as in Rauchbier, and Scotch ales. Low amounts are appropriate, but excess use of malt can be overbearing.

 

[badmajon]

Now you have me even more curious. I wish I wish I wish you could make another batch with the same yeast but back with your aluminum pot. Reason being is I don't think I've ever gotten a "proper" batch out of my keggle, and I don't know why. Seems that there's always an off-flavor, and I suspect that maybe I'm having a sanitation issue with the ball valve or pickup tube.

I will have to do some searches when I get time to see if anyone else has had this problem with their SS keggles.

The plot thickens. I don't see how sanitation could be an issue, because you're subjecting it to boiling temps for at least an hour with every batch- shouldn't that kill anything that might be hiding in there? Still, you never know.

This time I will be using bottled water and I will also be using silicone tubing (last time I used high pressure vinyl from the keggle to the pump to the CF chiller). If it happens again (God forbid, I'm drinking commercial beer now!) I will use the old aluminum pot.

 

[o4_srt]

Do you, by any chance, use a garden hose for your brewing water?

I'm pretty sure that is where my off-taste is coming from. I thought the carbon filter would remove it, but it doesn't.

The first beer I made was a brown, and I think the malt flavor covers the taste. However, the cream, being a lot lighter, doesn't have enough flavor to mask it.

I have a blonde fermenting now, if the taste still exists in that, the garden hose will be discontinued, and a potable water hose will be used instead.

 

[blizzard]

It is standard practice for water companies to temporarily change their chlorination methods in the fall and/or spring. Have you tasted your water lately? The other ideas on here are good, just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[o4_srt]

Drinking some of the brown that I didn't think had this taste. Upon further examination, there is a phenolic nose and slight phenol flavor. However, the flavor is masked by the flavor of the beer.

Looks like it's bottled water for my next batch.

 

[badmajon]

UPDATE:

I bottled the beer tonight and I noticed something weird: there was almost no yeast at the bottom!

I've brewed about 15 batches in my brewing "career" and I always see a good two or three inches of yeast cake at the bottom (I use a bucket so I can't see before I siphon it out). This time, I got only 1/2 inch of yeast! Whaa? This is the same yeast I used before, and last time I got 2 inches at least.

It did ferment down to 1.008, but with what looks like 1/4th the usual yeast volume sitting at the bottom of the bucket.

Ideas?!?

Also... o4: does the garden hose taste only come out after fermentation, or does it taste like that going into the fermenter?

 

[o4_srt]

I was about to ask you a similar question. It's only apparent after bottling, I've never noticed it during the prebottle sample.

 

[badmajon]

I was about to ask you a similar question. It's only apparent after bottling, I've never noticed it during the prebottle sample.

Why do you think it is the hose anyway? Oh yeah and I realize now that I did change my hose since the last batch (I use hose water).

 

[o4_srt]

Why do you think it is the hose anyway? Oh yeah and I realize now that I did change my hose since the last batch (I use hose water).

I started out with extract inside on the stove and made a half dozen or so batches without this flavor. After switching to all grain, I did a few biab beers on the stove without the plastic taste. When I went full scale all grain, I moved my brewing into the garage, using a hose for water, and now the flavor is present

 

[Saccharomyces]

Yikes if it isn't a white RV hose you found your issue. A regular hose is made with pvc and leaches enough chlorine into the water to render a beer undrinkable.

 

[Chuginator]

Yikes if it isn't a white RV hose you found your issue. A regular hose is made with pvc and leaches enough chlorine into the water to render a beer undrinkable.

Well, that might explain some things for me... early batches, 15 years ago- I figured "I'm going to use the water of my land!" Unfortunately, through a garden hose. Live and learn.

 

[o4_srt]

Yikes if it isn't a white RV hose you found your issue. A regular hose is made with pvc and leaches enough chlorine into the water to render a beer undrinkable.

i have a feeling this is the issue. Unfortunately, i have 10 gallons (3 batches) that are in varying process of fermentation brewed with standard garden hose. If this is, indeed, the issue, most of it will have turned out poorly because they are a cream, blonde, and american wheat/rye. All lighter styles, all not capable of masking the flavor.

Like i previously stated, i figured campden treatments/carbon block filtration would remove it.

Remembering back to when I was young, I never noticed a plastic taste from drinking from the garden hose, although I grew up in the country, no public water.

Perhaps I should rebrew those three batches, and lug tap water out to the garage instead, and compare.

 

[JuanMoore]

Remembering back to when I was young, I never noticed a plastic taste from drinking from the garden hose, although I grew up in the country, no public water.

Even if there isn't enough stuff leached from the hose to make the water taste terrible, it's often enough to react with the yeast to create chlorophenols. Most chlorophenols have a very low taste threshold, and it doesnt take much to ruin a beer. Regular garden hoses have no place in brewing.

 

[Chuginator]

...Perhaps I should rebrew those three batches, and lug tap water out to the garage instead, and compare.

Keeping as many other factors as similar as possible (especially the yeast) - I'd like to see how that turns out!

 

[o4_srt]

Keeping as many other factors as similar as possible (especially the yeast) - I'd like to see how that turns out!

When I get around to brewing them again, I'm going to follow my notes as closely ad possible. I usually take 3 pages of notes during each brew day, followed by another page fermentation, bottling, and tasting notes.

The only difference will be the source water.

 

[Bensiff]

chlorophenols can be tasted at the parts per billion level. I have had that issue a time or two and think it is related to using hose I bought at Lowes. However, the first thing you should do when you get an off taste like that (which isn't obvious where its coming from) is to tear down you equipment to the point of pulling apart your ball valves and then cleaning them with PBW or similar until 100% clean and then sanitizing. Replace O-rings and hoses when you do this. That way you can eliminate that variable, not to mention people don't do this enough as they rely on boiling to sanitize when there are plenty of areas that stuff can hide that boiling won't get.

 

[Beer_Guy]

i have a feeling this is the issue. Unfortunately, i have 10 gallons (3 batches) that are in varying process of fermentation brewed with standard garden hose. If this is, indeed, the issue, most of it will have turned out poorly because they are a cream, blonde, and american wheat/rye. All lighter styles, all not capable of masking the flavor.
…

I have ruined more than one batch and have saved them using different methods. To fix these, I would cold steep a pound of Chocolate grains and a pound of 60L or 80L grains. The cold steeping will keep any bitter flavor to a minimum. Steep them 24 hours in a half gallon or so of water. Then split the liquid into the three fermenters. This way you will wind up with at least some drinkable Browns.

 

[o4_srt]

chlorophenols can be tasted at the parts per billion level. I have had that issue a time or two and think it is related to using hose I bought at Lowes. However, the first thing you should do when you get an off taste like that (which isn't obvious where its coming from) is to tear down you equipment to the point of pulling apart your ball valves and then cleaning them with PBW or similar until 100% clean and then sanitizing. Replace O-rings and hoses when you do this. That way you can eliminate that variable, not to mention people don't do this enough as they rely on boiling to sanitize when there are plenty of areas that stuff can hide that boiling won't get.

I do a 100% pbw/star San/ hot water cleaning after every batch. I'm 99% sure it's from the hose

 

[o4_srt]

I have ruined more than one batch and have saved them using different methods. To fix these, I would cold steep a pound of Chocolate grains and a pound of 60L or 80L grains. The cold steeping will keep any bitter flavor to a minimum. Steep them 24 hours in a half gallon or so of water. Then split the liquid into the three fermenters. This way you will wind up with at least some drinkable Browns.

That seems like it might work well enough. Like I previously stated, the brown Only has a slight hint of the flavor.

The ****ty thing is that the flavor does not present until bottle conditioning.

 

[JuanMoore]

That seems like it might work well enough. Like I previously stated, the brown Only has a slight hint of the flavor.

The ****ty thing is that the flavor does not present until bottle conditioning.

If that's the case you may want to consider using bottled water for rinsing and sanitizing the bottles.

 

[o4_srt]

If that's the case you may want to consider using bottled water for rinsing and sanitizing the bottles.

I never had a problem when brewing indoors, using the same tap water to brew and bottle.

This flavor has only presented since moving operations into the garage, using a garden hose.

I haven't changed anything regarding the bottling process.

 

[badmajon]

I finally decided this was a case of bad yeast of some sort, maybe stress. After priming the bottles I noticed that the smell/taste had returned in full force. The yeast was just reproducing this nasty taste/smell. Blech. A dumper.

 

[o4_srt]

If you haven't dumped it yet, let the bottles condition, then cold condition for a few weeks.

This cleared my off flavor up, and the wet tastes great now.

 

[badmajon]

cold condition= pop them in the fridge? i havent dumped them yet

 

[o4_srt]

cold condition= pop them in the fridge? i havent dumped them yet

You got it. It's worth a try, no one wants to dump a batch

 

[badmajon]

I still wonder exactly how it happened though, can yeast get stressed and become disgruntled? Start making disgusting PVC like flavors as a way of protesting the three crappy weeks they spent sitting at the bottom of a coke bottle in my beer fridge (which is filthy and needs cleaning)? I guess they made their point.

 

[o4_srt]

I still wonder exactly how it happened though, can yeast get stressed and become disgruntled? Start making disgusting PVC like flavors as a way of protesting the three crappy weeks they spent sitting at the bottom of a coke bottle in my beer fridge (which is filthy and needs cleaning)? I guess they made their point.

I'm thinking it might be normal for kolsch yeast, since that's the one thing we have in common. Kolsch yeast is also known for being a little slow.

 

[jjones17]

I still wonder exactly how it happened though, can yeast get stressed and become disgruntled? Start making disgusting PVC like flavors as a way of protesting the three crappy weeks they spent sitting at the bottom of a coke bottle in my beer fridge (which is filthy and needs cleaning)? I guess they made their point.

I have had this exact scenario happen also. It was 100% from my starter, specifically - I pitched a badly oxidized starter (INCLUDING the starter liquid) which was from a smack pack about 7 months old. I was shaking my starter during ferment, and pitching the terrible tasting liquid - compound that with yeast WELL past its prime that likely grew 20x or 30x in the starter (way too much) given there was so little living yeast in there. The starter took 2 weeks to ferment.

Anyway, if you pitched the liquid - I do not reccomend unless you are using a O2 stone at the beginning and not throughout, and/or your yeast is very healthy.

 

[xeerohour]

I think I'm in a similar boat. I've noticed a nasty phenolic smell on three different stouts I've made over the past year or two, and it wasn't detectable in any of the three until after they bottle conditioned for some time.

The one thing I have in common is the use of a green garden hose for my source water. Outside of that, all three had different hops and mostly different grains. They all three used S-05 as their yeast, though.

The one thing that's odd though is that I've made other batches using the same garden hose that haven't had this problem - a quad, a porter, and a Christmas ale. It may be some combination of the hose water, the yeast reactivation due to bottling sugar, and then months of storage at room temperature. The latter two beers were bottled directly from the kegerator, so no bottling sugar was used. Still no clue why the quad hasn't developed the same problem.

 

[o4_srt]

I think I'm in a similar boat. I've noticed a nasty phenolic smell on three different stouts I've made over the past year or two, and it wasn't detectable in any of the three until after they bottle conditioned for some time.

The one thing I have in common is the use of a green garden hose for my source water. Outside of that, all three had different hops and mostly different grains. They all three used S-05 as their yeast, though.

The one thing that's odd though is that I've made other batches using the same garden hose that haven't had this problem - a quad, a porter, and a Christmas ale. It may be some combination of the hose water, the yeast reactivation due to bottling sugar, and then months of storage at room temperature. The latter two beers were bottled directly from the kegerator, so no bottling sugar was used. Still no clue why the quad hasn't developed the same problem.

I also used a garden hose. I added a filter before brewing the batch currently bottle conditioning. We'll see if the taste disappeared next weekend.

I have noticed it is waaaay more detectable in lighter beers. It wasn't really perceivable in my first brew using a hose. That beer is being judged this weekend, I'm curious to see if they detect phenols.