Tell me about your HERMS-- I've got a ton of questions!

[The Pol]

My 120V element is plugged into a wall socket... (through a temp controller)... so I dont see th difference between that and plugging in a 4500W element to boil with. It is rated for 240V, so 220V should be perfectly fine and not blow anything up.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Can someone explain to me what i need and how to hook it up? Ive seen the elements at home depot but im assuming I cant just stick straight 220 juice to the element and have heat that wont blow something up right? Please help

Well, actually you can do exactly that ! The only issue you have with that is that the temperature is either on or off -- no temperature control.

That is where the SSR & controller ( Ranco, Love, custom ) comes in.

The SSR handles the 20a current to the element. The controller tells the SSR when to come on and turn off.

If I were wiring this again, I think I would find a GFCI breaker that fit my box and have the electrician install it!

 

[Skipster]

... still A LOT cheaper than putting controllers and switches on three burners.

I am wanting to set up a HERMS, so my question is why would you have to have 3 controllers? Isn't controlling the temp through the HLT part of the point. My plans only call for one temp controller on the HLT since I will be mashing in a cooler. Maybe I am way off base here.

Thanks

 

[The Pol]

I am wanting to set up a HERMS, so my question is why would you have to have 3 controllers? Isn't controlling the temp through the HLT part of the point. My plans only call for one temp controller on the HLT since I will be mashing in a cooler. Maybe I am way off base here.

Thanks

You are right, the OP was talking about controlling 3 burners... dunno.

 

[Stevorino]

Well, I've learned a lot since then-- but yeah, I was originally wrong

When I finally do it, I will indeed only have one temperature controller on the HLT-- although I may have digital temp probes on each keggle.

 

[The Pol]

Exactly, I have a digital therm in my MLT, HLT and my boil kettle just boils.

ANYONE see a problem with just getting a 3500W element to boil 7.5 gallons, with no controller, just full out running? Id love to be able to dial it down to say 1500W or 2000W when it gets rolling, but I dunno how.

 

[Hokus]

Well, actually you can do exactly that ! The only issue you have with that is that the temperature is either on or off -- no temperature control.

That is where the SSR & controller ( Ranco, Love, custom ) comes in.

The SSR handles the 20a current to the element. The controller tells the SSR when to come on and turn off.

If I were wiring this again, I think I would find a GFCI breaker that fit my box and have the electrician install it!

I guess this is my main area of confussion. I understand that I could plug the element directly into 220 and have a hot element to make boiling water. However I do want to be able to control it so it will ramp down and maintain a boil. I have been looking at the auberins.com site and see the pids, ssr's, and thermocouples thet sell. However I dont fully understand what I would need to buy. I have a pretty good understanding of electronics and wiring etc, but just never did anything like this before so its all new to me.

I guess I would be needing this PID? 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SSR control output) [SYL-2352] - $44.50 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

this thermocouple? K Type Thermocouple (6 ft. cable) English thread [TC-K6] - $6.85 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

What amperage ssr would be used here?
I am probablly looking at a 4500 or 5500 watt element to be used in a keggle to boil perhaps this element K Type Thermocouple (6 ft. cable) English thread [TC-K6] - $6.85 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

Does anyone have maybe a picture of their exact setup and explination of components? This I think would clear it all up for me as I dont fully get how it all connects yet.

 

[The Pol]

They need to make HUGE 6000W rheostats for these things. I mean, what is a temp controller going to do, the wort will never get above 212F (corrected for pressure)... and you obviously want it to keep boiling.
I wish that I could turn the power up on the element to MAX to get the boil started, and then turn it down to say 2000W to keep a nice rolling boil. How will an SSR and a temp controller do that?

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Pol - Think old oven controller... The boil will be rather simple, just like a stovetop. Full feat to boil, then reduce to a certain percentage to maintain.

 

[stevehaun]

Most PID have a manual mode that allows you to dial in % power. This allows you to control the boil kettle element with a PID and SSR. You don't need a thermocouple for your boil kettle. If you have a 4500 watt element, you can run it at 100% power to bring the wort to a boil then turn it down to a lower level, e.g., 65%, to maintain the boil. In manual mode, the PID works by "turning on" the SSR for a percentage of the cycle time. For example, if you have your cycle time set at 1 second and set your percent power at 50%, the SSR will be "on" for 0.5 second and "off" for 0.5 second. You want a PID with DC output and an SSR with DC input and AC output. For a 4500 or 5500 watt element, I would recommend a 40 amp SSR and a heat sink. You can buy all this off Ebay or from Auber instruments. You can use the same setup to control your HLT but you will need a K type thermocouple and a thermowell.

 

[kal]

I am getting a double pole 30A breaker, which will allow me to easily run a 4500W low density element in my BK. I should be able to convert my BK to electric for less than $60. It will be nice to not have gas to mess with anymore. I will keep my HLT with the 1500W element as it does the job in there quite well.

I'm assuming the 30A breaker you're installing is a GFCI breaker? It should be.

Everything in an electric brewery should be GFCI'ed because of the mixture of water & electricity and it's often cheaper (easier) to do at the panel than at the sources that use the power.

I would also recommend using real PIDs instead of the hard on/off Love-type controllers.

Kal

 

[kal]

Most PID have a manual mode that allows you to dial in % power. This allows you to control the boil kettle element with a PID and SSR. You don't need a thermocouple for your boil kettle. If you have a 4500 watt element, you can run it at 100% power to bring the wort to a boil then turn it down to a lower level, e.g., 65%, to maintain the boil. In manual mode, the PID works by "turning on" the SSR for a percentage of the cycle time. For example, if you have your cycle time set at 1 second and set your percent power at 50%, the SSR will be "on" for 0.5 second and "off" for 0.5 second.

This is exactly how I understand it to work too. My concern is that turning 4500-5500 watts on/off every second is just murder on the house mains not?

I could have sworn I read somewhere here that it's even illegal to do in some places as it adds obvious noise/harmonics on to the line (which your electrical company won't like let alone the other sensitive electronic devices in the house). That's a lot of power to be cycling on and off that fast. Your stove, dryer and AC unit eat uo 30A+ as well but they don't cycle on/off every second.

So I guess the question is: Do all electric Brew Kettles simply use PIDs in manual mode where you punch in the %? Anyone ever try ramping up to 212F with a large element (4500-5500) at 100% and then shut it off and maintain boil with a ~1000W (guessing) element running at 100%?

Kal

 

[BrewBeemer]

Heck I was pulling over 135 amps at 240 volts Tig tack welding some 1" alumimum bar stock to 3/8" thick aluminum diamond plate on a boat trailer at the house without any ill effects or complaints from my neighbors. There were many heavy tacks made on this project before getting some serious welding done without a problem. The pig across the street on the pole for my service drop didn't flinch a bit, its fed by 12KV, the powers there. If I was down at the end of the line a couple blocks away with this heavy load surge my neighbors might notice but in your case your only talking about the 5,000 watt range. Crank on and off all your elements if you have a electric stove top, any neighbors complain? I was pulling 32,400 watts not counting the torch cooling pump an additional 264 watts for over 6.5 times your amount.

 

[stevehaun]

I run two 4500 watt elements in both my HLT and BK. I don't run them simulataneously so I am only running 9000 watts (38 amps @ 240 vac). I never see my lights fade in and out or anything that suggests a problem. I have a 50 amp GFI breaker in my 200 amp load center. I am unaware of any problems but maybe the electric company will be knocking at my door soon...

 

[The Pol]

I run two 4500 watt elements in both my HLT and BK. I don't run them simulataneously so I am only running 9000 watts (38 amps @ 240 vac). I never see my lights fade in and out or anything that suggests a problem. I have a 50 amp GFI breaker in my 200 amp load center. I am unaware of any problems but maybe the electric company will be knocking at my door soon...

Hey, do you have PID and SSRs wired into those elements? I do not understand the appication of PIDs and SSRs or how they are wired in AT ALL.

I am almost to the point of installing (2) 1650W 120V elements, placing them on switches, and running both to start the boil and one to keep the boil rolling. I only boil 7.5 gallons, and it starts at say 150-155F and I could start the heating say 10 minutes prior to finishing my sparge. I just do not understand PIDs and SSRs or how to wire them well enough to even begin that process. I also cannot seem to find a comprehensive wiring diagram or explaination on how to use them for the water heater element application.

 

[kal]

I run two 4500 watt elements in both my HLT and BK. I don't run them simulataneously so I am only running 9000 watts (38 amps @ 240 vac). I never see my lights fade in and out or anything that suggests a problem. I have a 50 amp GFI breaker in my 200 amp load center. I am unaware of any problems but maybe the electric company will be knocking at my door soon...

Nice setup. How big are the batches you're making such that you need 9000W in them? Or did you only go big to reduce the heating time?

I was hoping to get away with about 5500W in both of my tanks which will be used to make mostly 10 gallon (some 15) batches. This'll let me go with a 30A GFI breaker and hopefully not tax my 100A service too much.

Kal

 

[kal]

Hey, do you have PID and SSRs wired into those elements? I do not understand the appication of PIDs and SSRs or how they are wired in AT ALL.

The short answer:

A temp probe in the mash or HLT is connected to the PID so that the PID knows when to turn on/off the element. A PID is smarter than a basic love controller that simply looks at current temp and decides if the element should e on/off as the PID uses calculus to looks at ramp up/down speed and will turn OFF the element before it gets close to the target temp.

A PID cannot switch the high currents needed by the element so a solid state relay has to be used (SSR). The PID switches the SSR, the SSR switches the element.

I just do not understand PIDs and SSRs or how to wire them well enough to even begin that process. I also cannot seem to find a comprehensive wiring diagram or explaination on how to use them for the water heater element application.

I would suggest you get someone to help you out. It's not just wiring diagram you need but some understanding of the safety issues involved to make sure you ground things properly and use GFCI's.

I asked earlier if the 30A breaker you were going to get was a GFCI version. That's important. You really need to be careful with any mixtures of electricity and water.

Kal

 

[Nwcw2001]

I understand that I could plug the element directly into 220 and have a hot element to make boiling water. However I do want to be able to control it so it will ramp down and maintain a boil.

I just did some brain storming and discovered that it still works!! I have come up with a hands on kind of solution to this. You don't have to have all the bells and whistles you can wire this in.

It is a 220V 1000W dimmer switch that you would be able to dial in the boil rate by hand. I know that all the controllers would make it easier, but for $15 it makes electric boil achievable without breaking the bank. You get to get your system dialed in before making it automated.

Hope this helps,

John

By the way you can get this dimmer here

 

[The Pol]

I wish it were that easy. That switch is rated at 1000W... most are using 4500W or 5500W elements. Youd need a 5000-6000W switch, right?

 

[The Pol]

The thing I dont like about the PID and SSR is that it is ON/OFF... I wish there were a way to allow a VARIABLE current to the element to be able to ramp the element from 1500-5500W for example, manually.

Here is a link to a 120V 1500W dimmer, but it is like $77, and that will only control ONE 1500W element. I think I am sticking to propane for now. Between the issues with successfully installing the heating element, installing a 220V outlet in my garage, and then controlling the element in my BK... it is not worth it.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3X756?cm_mmc=Google Base-_-Electrical-_-Switches-_-3X756

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

The way that a PID controller should do this. While it can't say "put out 175v", It can say "stay on for the next 400 ms, then shut off for 600ms. In one sec, repeat"

That is how you get a duty cycle.

 

[Hokus]

Ok I am taking the beginnning steps into trying to set something up in my BK. I bought a 5500 watt uld element for 17 dollars at home depot this afternoon and figured out a nut that fits on it so it looks like I will be able to drill a 1 3/4 inch hole and stick it in there.

Heres my next question. These elements only have 2 connections on them. Doesnt 220 have 4 wires? 2 110 legs, ground and neutral? How does that get wired up.

My dad is more electronics savey then me, and is going to help me put in a 30amp gfi circuit in, and I plan on purchasing a PID, 40amp ssd, and thermocouple from auberins.com this week.

Anyone have any tips/suggestions on this?

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

A stove connection has those, but you will only need the 220v for the element. I would suggest using a separate 120v circuit for your electronics. Not saying it would, but it could shorten the lifespan of those rapidly switching SSR & PID elements.

I;d make sure that you ground that to the kettle. I am using a circuit breaker box "lug" for that.

My first full test of the system will be tomorrow, and pics and post will follow.

 

[The Pol]

I get what you are saying about duty cycle... if you have a 6000W element on a 50% duty cycle, you are effectively getting 3000W from it in terms of heat.

 

[stevehaun]

I initially built my system to do 15 gallon batches. I set it up with 2 X 4500 watt elements. I have acquired a bigger boil kettle and mash tun but kept my electric power the same. I now do 30 gallon batches. Today I did a 35 gallon batch and that really pushed the limits of my system. I had to run the boil kettle on 90% power after I brought the wort to a boil. For comparison, with 15 gallon batches, I ran the boil kettle at 65% power.

 

[Hokus]

A stove connection has those, but you will only need the 220v for the element. I would suggest using a separate 120v circuit for your electronics. Not saying it would, but it could shorten the lifespan of those rapidly switching SSR & PID elements.

I;d make sure that you ground that to the kettle. I am using a circuit breaker box "lug" for that.

My first full test of the system will be tomorrow, and pics and post will follow.

Are you saying that only the 110v legs go to the element? Im not sure how that works. Let us know how your set up works and some pics might help us all out.:rockin:

 

[kappclark]

May I rewind the tape ?

POL - How is the 1500W element installed in the HLT/cooler ? What fittings, holes drilled etc ?

It seems like such an easy setup ...

Also - if you boil with propane, you still need to be outside, so no indoor brewing.

Electric novice here ..

 

[The Pol]

I brew indoors with propane, with ventilation. Been doing it for years.