Cider nutrient conundrum. Asking others about their experience(s) with nutrients in the cider process.

[Don't Know Much]

Hey everyone, Let me know what you think my issue might be. Am I doing something wrong?

Made many batches of strong apple cider years ago and I'm going to jump back into it soon. Planning my re-entry and figured I would ask a question about nutrients. Way back when, My first couple batches started really slowly and progressed very slowly as well. (Store bought juice sweetened with additional frozen concentrate and sugar. Not really cider. More like very strong apple wine 17%-19%. Also fermented very cool in the low 50's) I tried some nutrient in a later batch to address the sluggish process and the batch tasted very off! Since then stayed away from nutrient for the most part and when I did use it, only used it to pitch-up the yeast before ferment and poured off all liquid from the starter after cold crashing to keep any nutrient additive out of the must. No more off flavors with this method but don't know if that is how you are supposed to use nutrients.

How do you all use nutrients and has any one else experienced off flavors from the addition of nutrients? If so, why and what did you do to correct the issue of off flavors in future batches?

 

[Rish]

I make cider with store bought juice and sometimes fajc, although not at the abv of yours. I've added 1 teaspoon of Fermaid O to some batches and haven't detected any off flavors.

 

[fluketamer]

yes DAP which i think is the same as fermaid o works wonders for yeast trying to ferment AJ or honey . i have never had off flavors with nutrient but imagine overdoing it could lead to off flavors. are you sure you didnt add to much dap at the time.
but no i have never had off flavors from DAP

 

[DBhomebrew]

DAP and Fermaid-O both provide yeast assimilable nitrogen (YAN), but Fermaid-O gets it from organic sources. Fermaid-K contains DAP.

If you add more YAN than the yeast can use in any given ferment, the YAN remaining can most definitely be a source of off-flavors.

It's one of those too much of a good thing can be a bad thing things.

Yes, I've gotten nutrient derived off-flavors in a mead. I started using the TANG protocol which tends to go easy on the nutrients compared to other protocols.

 

[CKuhns]

I do a hard cider at roughly15%. Using D47 yeast started with Fermax 24 hours prior to pitch.

Calculate the nutrient requirements using TOSNA 3.0 for mead. (Fermaid-O) Then cut it in half as apple juice comes with some nutrients that honey does not.

Add the Fermaid-O all up front at yeast pitch. Ferment at 60 Deg F. D47 can throw some Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell) if stressed or pushed too fast.

 

[Chalkyt]

As above, plus a bit of background on nutrient... Different yeasts vary in their dependence on YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) which they need to consume all the sugar available and so progress to complete fermentation. Ale yeasts (such as SO4 or TF6) are higher dependency yeasts than wine or champagne yeasts like EC1118.

Research shows that 10ppm of YAN (which you would get from 50ppm of nutrient like DAP) is needed to ferment 0.010 SG. However, most apples already have 80-120 ppm of YAN so there should be more than enough YAN to fully ferment "normal" juice with an OG of 1.050 -1.060. Having said that, the YAN in some appls can be well below 50ppm. By the time you have added sugar to bring the SG up to 18% ABV, you are looking to ferment 1.140 and may not have enough YAN for the yeast to finish their job, maybe resulting in stress and off flavours. Under these circumstances off-smells (such as hydrogen sulphide) are common but I don't know how this translates into strange flavours.

Just to complicate matters, you usually don't know much about the source or age of bought juice which can lose YAN during storage. Even with my own trees, I sometimes have a triple whammy of old, unfertilised trees and late season apples, all of which can result in low YAN. So, sometimes my own 1.050 juice will stall at around 1.010. All very good if you want a slightly sweet cider, but no good if you then want to bottle condition.

So, it seems to me that for your situation, the appropriate amount of nutrient is worthwhile if you are starting with a very high OG (but not too much). As a general rule, I add a "good pinch" or about 1/8 teaspoon of DAP per gallon just to ensure complete fermentation. As 30 ppm is about 1/8 teaspoon per 5 gallons, this might well be a bit too much (like wearing a belt, braces and safety pins), but I certainly don't have any off flavours.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

 

[Don't Know Much]

CKuhns, DB homebrew, & Chalkyt good info! thanks a bunch to you all for replying!

Really appreciate the help and advice.

 

[JAReeves]

When I make ciders or beers that are above 8%, I usually put them on top of the yeast cake from a smaller ABV, similar beverage. The dead yeasties act as nutrient and there is more than enough live yeasties to rip through all the sugar. A solid starter may work well as well, but I'm not sure how many liters you would need for something of that size.

 

[Crapple]

As above, plus a bit of background on nutrient... Different yeasts vary in their dependence on YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) which they need to consume all the sugar available and so progress to complete fermentation. Ale yeasts (such as SO4 or TF6) are higher dependency yeasts than wine or champagne yeasts like EC1118.

Research shows that 10ppm of YAN (which you would get from 50ppm of nutrient like DAP) is needed to ferment 0.010 SG. However, most apples already have 80-120 ppm of YAN so there should be more than enough YAN to fully ferment "normal" juice with an OG of 1.050 -1.060. Having said that, the YAN in some appls can be well below 50ppm. By the time you have added sugar to bring the SG up to 18% ABV, you are looking to ferment 1.140 and may not have enough YAN for the yeast to finish their job, maybe resulting in stress and off flavours. Under these circumstances off-smells (such as hydrogen sulphide) are common but I don't know how this translates into strange flavours.

Just to complicate matters, you usually don't know much about the source or age of bought juice which can lose YAN during storage. Even with my own trees, I sometimes have a triple whammy of old, unfertilised trees and late season apples, all of which can result in low YAN. So, sometimes my own 1.050 juice will stall at around 1.010. All very good if you want a slightly sweet cider, but no good if you then want to bottle condition.

So, it seems to me that for your situation, the appropriate amount of nutrient is worthwhile if you are starting with a very high OG (but not too much). As a general rule, I add a "good pinch" or about 1/8 teaspoon of DAP per gallon just to ensure complete fermentation. As 30 ppm is about 1/8 teaspoon per 5 gallons, this might well be a bit too much (like wearing a belt, braces and safety pins), but I certainly don't have any off flavours.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Why use DAP over Fermaid O? I used DAP early on in cider making but switched to FO after doing mead for a while out of convenience. This post has been helpful, as I’ve honestly always been puzzled by nutrients and wish there was a calculator for cider like meadmakr. I’m going to try another DAP batch after my recent 5gal had too much FO and it produced a malty taste that I wasn’t a fan of.

If I were making a 10% cider (to blend with fresh juice) how would I approach my dose of DAP so I don’t overdo it?