Taking a "clone" to a brewing competition...

[JoeBronco]

A brewing friend and i were discussing the rights and wrongs about bringing clone beers to a home brew brewing competition. I wanted to know what HBT thought about the subject.

We both came to the conclusion:
Clones or recipes written by someone else and posted online are not considered your beer and should not be submitted. Even if brewed by you, they are not yours to enter.

Where we differ is when a recipe is posted and CHANGED in any way, weather it be an addition of hops or a change in the grains. I believe that if a beer recipe is changed in any way it becomes the brewers beer and should be able to be submitted without the "Moral Angle" standing on your shoulder telling you no.

Are there any rules, moral or otherwise that say no? Whats your thoughts.

 

[MalFet]

Nah...recipes don't make good beer. Technique makes good beer.

Besides, every recipe out there is a variation on one of six or seven recipes designed by the old-timers back in the dark ages of homebrewing.

 

[bob1852]

Agreed with Mal.

Take this

10lbs 2-row
0.5lb 60L

1 oz Magnum @ 60
1 oz Cascade @ 15
1 oz Cascade @ 5

WLP001 or Wyeast 1056

If 10 brewers make that recipe; there will be 10 "different" beers because of all of the variables.....

 

[JoeBronco]

Lets say a magazine posts a recipe for SN IPA, its all good to brew it and call it your own in a competition?
I guess to me that concept seems like infringement

 

[bob1852]

Lets say a magazine posts a recipe for SN IPA, its all good to brew it and call it your own in a competition?

Yes.

 

[riverfrontbrewer]

I agree w Az...if all three of us made a recipe...you would use CA water, he AZ water, and I Denver's finest....that is the first HUGE variable before we even get to the grains, diff maltsters, sourcing hops from diff farms, slight variations in firm temp.....don't overthink it........and on another note, it sure is good to be talking about beer again

 

[remilard]

Most people would disagree with you morally for the reasons stated above.

As for rules, every competition has them and I always urge people to read them for the specific competition they are entering but I have never seen a rule forbidding clone beers and do not expect to.

If the rules don't disallow it essentially nobody will look down on you for doing it. It happens all of the time.

 

[bob1852]

it sure is good to be talking about beer again

making your stout soon....

 

[jiggs_casey]

Somebody said it a few weeks ago on the same subject. Even with a recipe, it's your beer. You bought the grains. You bought the hops, the equipment, yeast, etc...

IMO, it would be really difficult to say, "he / she copied me!" when given the availability and differences in equipment / ingredients. In this hobby, recipes are published in the spirit of "Wow, I made a really great beer and I want you to try it!" I agree with MalFet, technique matters. Which is why we strive to improve...

If you find a combination of recipe / method that turns out a great beer for you and you want to enter it in a contest, do it! Like all hobbies, there's no point in it if you're not having fun.

 

[samc]

Personally I'd give credit as needed. For example, "MY IPA" - inspired by xxx as seen in xxx magazine. Although it's not necessary, I do it if I feel that I've attempted to copy it exactly as written. I usually stray from printed recipes anyway.

Lists of ingredients are not copyrighted, only certain unique methods or techniques.

 

[MalFet]

Lets say a magazine posts a recipe for SN IPA, its all good to brew it and call it your own in a competition?
I guess to me that concept seems like infringement

Especially in this circumstance, it's fine. If your buddy has been working on a secret recipe for months and you sneak a look at his notebook, brew it up, and enter it in your local competition before he gets a chance to, that's pretty lame-o. But anything published or commercial is part of the collective unconscious of beer. SNPA, in particular, is basically "plain beer" by this point.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

If you brewed it, it's your beer. 'nuff said.

 

[NPK]

I've wanted to develop my own recipe for a while now. I found it intimidating because I had the feeling that no matter what concoction, or off the wall ingredient I chose, that it had been done before in the past and it wouldn't be "mine". I have renewed faith in making a recipe after reading this.

I have one technique that may set it apart from 99.999% of other beers. I'll let you know if it ever works out.

 

[JoeBronco]

Glad to know that there is at least one thing all the HBT guys can agree on! Never thought there would be a unanimous answer.

 

[Veinman]

Every brew is inspired by or similar to or the same recipe as some other recipe before it I think it would be almost impossible at this point to come up with a great recipe that wasn't a copy or inspired by some other recipe that is posted on hbt alone.
You did the work and your process make it your beer, enter at will.

 

[Indyking]

Shame on those who take clones or somebody's else recipes to competition! That's wrong and unethical IMHO! There is a reason why macro and microbreweries, wineries, and soda companies don't share their recipes! It's not so much about the technique as it is about the creativity and knowledge to create a good recipe!

 

[AnOldUR]

It's not so much about the technique as it is about the creativity and knowledge to create a good recipe!

That might be true of the pro's, but for us it's a Homebrew competition, not a recipe competition. We're not making a proprietary product for resale, we're testing our skills as brewers.

Big difference between copying someone’s recipe for profit and trying to reproduce it for fun and entertainment as a homebrewer.

These are amateur competitions. You want to be a professional, there's a place for that.

 

[millsware]

I think this is no problem, especially since most clones are somebody's best guess at the recipe, and there are so many variables that make up the beer. Ferment with a different yeast at a different temperature or for a different amount of time and you have a different beer.

I also second the notion that with all the brewers in history, there is probably not a recipe that has not been done before.

On the other side, if you feel that it is not moral/ethical/enjoyable to enter a beer that is not your own then head to the drawing board.

 

[Indyking]

That might be true of the pro's, but for us it's a Homebrew competition, not a recipe competition. We're not making a proprietary product for resale, we're testing our skills as brewers.

Big difference between copying someone’s recipe for profit and trying to reproduce it for fun and entertainment as a homebrewer.

These are amateur competitions. You want to be a professional, there's a place for that.

Right... "hey buddy, taste this brew of mine, got an award for it... Really? Did you designed it? Actually no, it's from a website, but a brewed it! Come on..."

If there is no specific rule in the competition limiting use of clones and somebody's else recipes, it's a personal decision in the end of the day.

I know I would NEVER use anything I have not designed on my own. For me it's never about being amateur or professional... It is simply about felling right or wrong. To each his own...

 

[petey_c]

MalFet's right. It's similar to French cooking. There are 5 basic sauces that every classic French sauce comes from. They are just modified to make a different sauce (veloute and creme make sauce supreme...). There are so many variables; water, where the grains came from, the hops, etc. that it would be impossible to make an exact copy of an existing beer. However, I think the intent of a competition is to present your own recipe. If nothing else say it's, "in the style of...".

 

[Indyking]

I also second the notion that with all the brewers in history, there is probably not a recipe that has not been done before.

Completely agree, but as long a I design it myself, I don't care because nobody knows about every single recipe out there.

 

[Special Hops]

You could give 50 people the same recipe and ask them to brew it. You could easily have each one taste a little bit different.

bad recipe = bad beer

good recipe = good or bad beer depending on who brews it.

 

[Chad]

Recipes are nothing. A list of ingredients. Technique and ingredients are everything.

Attempting to clone a commercial or craft beer will make you a better brewer. You have to have a finer sense of what each step or ingredient adds to the final product (or takes away from the final product), but the beer is yours. I'd have no moral qualms whatsoever about entering a clone beer in a competition.

 

[Indyking]

Recipes are nothing. A list of ingredients. Technique and ingredients are everything.

Attempting to clone a commercial or craft beer will make you a better brewer. You have to have a finer sense of what each step or ingredient adds to the final product (or takes away from the final product), but the beer is yours. I'd have no moral qualms whatsoever about entering a clone beer in a competition.

Yeah, recipes are nothing, except you don't brew without them! Like I said before, to each his own... it’s a personal choice.

I stopped cloning or brewing online recipes a while ago. It's now MY BEER, not somebody else's idea, just MY BEER.

Are there other recipes that are exactly the same to the ones I designed? Absolutely! But who cares when my recipes come from my own creativity, whether if it is bad or good beer, it feels darn good designing them myself!

 

[AnOldUR]

Remember, the major goal of competitions
is to educate the entrants and
to help them improve their brewing.

Apparently the whole purpose of a BJCP competition has gone over your head. Your beer is judged against commercial examples within that style to see if it matches the characteristics of those beers. The whole competition revolves around your ability to clone an existing beer style. Winning in a BJCP category is not about ingredients. They have already been defined by the guidelines. Winning a BJCP category award is about technique. If you’ve mastered that and your beer moves on to BOS, your recipe will be showcased, but getting brewers to that point is why the BJCP exists.

If you want to showcase your recipe creativity, you’ve come to the wrong place.
That is unless you enter all your beers in category 23.

It's now MY BEER, not somebody else's idea, just MY BEER.

Any chance you invented the internet.






Déjà vu

 

[remilard]

Yeah, recipes are nothing, except you don't brew without them! Like I said before, to each his own... it’s a personal choice.

I stopped cloning or brewing online recipes a while ago. It's now MY BEER, not somebody else's idea, just MY BEER.

Are there other recipes that are exactly the same to the ones I designed? Absolutely! But who cares when my recipes come from my own creativity, whether if it is bad or good beer, it feels darn good designing them myself!

When you say a while ago, you mean a very short while ago right? You were brewing kits when you joined here 4-5 months ago.

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I question the amount of effort and experience that has gone into your very strong opinions.

 

[Indyking]

Apparently the whole purpose of a BJCP competition has gone over your head. Your beer is judged against commercial examples within that style to see if it matches the characteristics of those beers. The whole competition revolves around your ability to clone an existing beer style. Winning in a BJCP category is not about ingredients. They have already been defined by the guidelines. Winning a BJCP category award is about technique. If you’ve mastered that and your beer moves on to BOS, your recipe will be showcased, but getting brewers to that point is why the BJCP exists.

If you want to showcase your recipe creativity, you’ve come to the wrong place.
That is unless you enter all your beers in category 23.


Any chance you invented the internet.

Sorry, but I think you missed my point. Go back and read what I posted. Did I ever question what the goal of BJCP competition is? All I'm saying is that I feel a lot more comfortable competing with a beer that I designed as opposed to just copy it from other source. It's a creativity and ethical issue IMHO... I repeat IMHO.

Now here is the thing, again my OPINION: You are providing your own interpretation of BJCP goals... To me, the statement:

"the major goal of competitions
is to educate the entrants and
to help them improve their brewing."

means that, you got learn what each style represents and what ingredients fits each category, then it's up to idividual talents and creativity to combine that information to best reproduce that style, as opposed to copy somebody’s else recipe and master your technique.

So, bottom line, you just have your way of interpreting things and I have mine, it all comes down do that.

Some people like these:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1580170773/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/160342539X/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I rather like these way better:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381500/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381837/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

So, in the end of the day, who cares?

 

[beergolf]

If you are brewing to a style there is only so much that you can do to remain in style guidelines.

 

[cappy]

I would think an "in the style of" disclaimer should suffice if you really wanted to. Or just add an extra 1/4oz hops somewhere and you have your own recipe.

 

[Indyking]

When you say a while ago, you mean a very short while ago right? You were brewing kits when you joined here 4-5 months ago.

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I question the amount of effort and experience that has gone into your very strong opinions.

Strong opinion?

My opinion: I will never submit a cloned recipe to a competition because I don't feel confortable about it. Oh, BTW others have said that too...

If you feel different, fine, not trying to change anyone's mind here!

What is strong about that?

 

[Revvy]

5 brewers can brew the exact same recipe (and this has been done here for swaps AND informal comps) and come out with 5 different versions of the same beer. Because each brewer puts their own experience, and their way of doing things into their beer.

Like there are 7 basic plot points that all novels are based on, there are 5 mother sauces that all gravies and sauces are based on, it all comes down to how the individual best utilizes them.

Maybe Remilard as a judge can elaborate on this, but think of an ipa, most of them are pretty much going to be the same hops (since a lot folks love their cascade and centennial) and maybe no more than 2-3 grains, a base (either extract or basemalt) and maybe no-more that 1-2 other crystal malts (probably the same low srm crystals) but they're going to each be unique. Heck I bet you if you actually did look at a bunch of ipa recipes in a contest they are going to be near copies of each other. Especially if they have the same ABV/OG/SRMS/IBUs, then the brewers more than likely achieve those number with the exact same amount of those grains and hops. Since there's going to be a limited way to achieve the same numbers....But once the brewer uses his method of sanitization, and his yeast in his temp range for his length or fermentation/conditioning time and his mash temp (if it's ag) those things are going to separate the beers from each other. So even a clone recipe in the hands of different brewers is not going to be the same beer. Even compared to the original commercial example.

 

[Ace_Club]

To the OP, it's a brewing competition, not a recipe competition. People are free to enter kit beers, clone brews, etc. The bottom line at the end of the day is how well you brewed the beer and how well it fits within the style category. If, however, you feel morally opposed to doing so, then don't, but also don't expect to receive "bonus" points in a comp for creating your own recipe.

 

[chrispykid]

Shame on those who take clones or somebody's else recipes to competition! That's wrong and unethical IMHO! There is a reason why macro and microbreweries, wineries, and soda companies don't share their recipes! It's not so much about the technique as it is about the creativity and knowledge to create a good recipe!

This argument might be more convincing if breweries didn't share recipes all the time: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show

 

[MalFet]

In hopes of keeping this potentially interesting conversation on track, can we stop feeding the troll? His point was a legitimate one the first time he said it, but now he's just saying the same thing over and over again.

 

[dos_perros]

Recipes can not be copyrighted, so they are fair game on any level. This is from the US Copyright Office website:

A mere listing of ingredients is not protected under copyright law. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a collection of recipes as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection. Note that if you have secret ingredients to a recipe that you do not wish to be revealed, you should not submit your recipe for registration, because applications and deposit copies are public records.

I agree with others who have posted that if you have several brewers brew the same recipe it will not be the same, there are to many variables and differences in technique. I would have no problem brewing a clone and submitting to a home brew contest, but thats just me. To each their own. I also agree with chrispy breweries share recipes quite frequently, often if you email breweries the brewer will respond and point you in the right direction, and with software you can make it from just a little information.

 

[motobrewer]

Right... "hey buddy, taste this brew of mine, got an award for it... Really? Did you designed it? Actually no, it's from a website, but a brewed it! Come on..."

If there is no specific rule in the competition limiting use of clones and somebody's else recipes, it's a personal decision in the end of the day.

I know I would NEVER use anything I have not designed on my own. For me it's never about being amateur or professional... It is simply about felling right or wrong. To each his own...

not designed by you?

i'm pretty sure someone, somewhere, has made your recipes before.

just because you never saw it posted somewhere doesn't mean it hasn't been done, or isn't currently being sold.

edit: whoops, i fed the troll....sorry.

 

[Indyking]

5 brewers can brew the exact same recipe (and this has been done here for swaps AND informal comps) and come out with 5 different versions of the same beer. Because each brewer puts their own experience, and their way of doing things into their beer.

Like there are 7 basic plot points that all novels are based on, there are 5 mother sauces that all gravies and sauces are based on, it all comes down to how the individual best utilizes them.

Maybe Remilard as a judge can elaborate on this, but think of an ipa, most of them are pretty much going to be the same hops (since a lot folks love their cascade and centennial) and maybe no more than 2-3 grains, a base (either extract or basemalt) and maybe no-more that 1-2 other crystal malts (probably the same low srm crystals) but they're going to each be unique. Heck I bet you if you actually did look at a bunch of ipa recipes in a contest they are going to be near copies of each other. Especially if they have the same ABV/OG/SRMS/IBUs, then the brewers more than likely achieve those number with the exact same amount of those grains and hops. Since there's going to be a limited way to achieve the same numbers....But once the brewer uses his method of sanitization, and his yeast in his temp range for his length or fermentation/conditioning time and his mash temp (if it's ag) those things are going to separate the beers from each other. So even a clone recipe in the hands of different brewers is not going to be the same beer. Even compared to the original commercial example.

And I agree with that, 100%.

But the discussion here is about submitting a cloned recipe for competition.

If somebody tells me they got a award winning beer in some competition, it does not matter which one, but if it is a cloned recipe, it feels different in my opinion. OK, you have got a good technique, but where is the creativity to design it? Just half-job done in my opinion.

Your silver medal (I think) Vienna lager for instance, posted in the recipe database. Was that a clone from some other source? I don't thin so, you got some ideas from the podcast you heard, but you did not actually copied the recipe, so don't you feel way better that way?

 

[Indyking]

In hopes of keeping this potentially interesting conversation on track, can we stop feeding the troll? His point was a legitimate one the first time he said it, but now he's just saying the same thing over and over again.

In response to people just trying to bash my opinion over and over again, fair game, no?

 

[Revvy]

And I agree with that, 100%.

But the discussion here is about submitting a cloned recipe for competition.

If somebody tells me they got a award winning beer in some competition, it does not matter which one, but if it is a cloned recipe, it feels different in my opinion. OK, you have got a good technique, but where is the creativity to design it? Just half-job done in my opinion.

Your silver medal (I think) Vienna lager for instance, posted in the recipe database. Was that a clone from some other source? Probably not, so don't you feel way better that way?

But the recipe itself becomes moot in the hands of the brewer, because a recipe is just words on paper but once it is brewed it's going to be totally different depending on the brewer, and their gear. So my point is even if 5 brewers enter the same commercial clone that they got from CLonebrews into a contest it's going to be 5 different brews, and none of them quite exactly the same as the original beer.

It's a contest for chrissakes it's not the high hallowed halls of justice or something, it's all meant to be in good fun, and education. And like other folks have said over and over, it's not a recipe contest in a brewing contest.

I have more issue with someone taking for example, Bell's Two Hearted Ale recipe, and opening up a brew pub and brewing and selling it...but I don't even know if that's not all that wrong, because again, due to the 10,000 other variables that go into a beer even beyond the recipe which, renders different beers based on the same recipe...It's NOT going to be the same beer.

Now maybe if the brewer or pub called it bell's two hearted and was purporting itself to be from Bell's that's one thing. But if they were calling it like Double Corazon Ale, I don't even know technically if that's legally wrong.

It's really hard to say. But where contests are concerned if you don't choose to brew a clone, then don't.

 

[weirdboy]

Strong opinion?

My opinion: I will never submit a cloned recipe to a competition because I don't feel confortable about it. Oh, BTW others have said that too...

If you feel different, fine, not trying to change anyone's mind here!

What is strong about that?

Maybe it's your excessive use of exclamation points and capitalization.



Have you even entered a competition before? Or maybe stewarded or judged in one?

Maybe you should try to understand how a BJCP competition actually works before going off kilter with how unethical it is.

Your beer is tasted and compared against the style guidelines. While some style guidelines are fairly open to interpretation, much of the time to meet style guidelines you are essentially trying to replicate the characteristics of one of a few commercial examples of that style.


Also, as you can see from the huge number of posts in the beginner's forum, just having a recipe for a particular commercial beer does not mean that's what your beer is going to taste like when you are done brewing it. The malt and hops sources, techniques used, fermentation, water profile, and many other factors change the outcome of the beer. Even commercial breweries and wineries cannot always reliably replicate the same thing every time, so many end up blending several generations to keep a consistent flavor. The ones that DON'T blend are noticeably different from year to year.