Taking a "clone" to a brewing competition...

[jeffmeh]

LOL...at first I read it as Porking the Hornet's nest.....I've heard of kinky but....

Getting a few more good ones in before the day, I see.

 

[Revvy]

Getting a few more good ones in before the day, I see.

I think of it as stress related gallows humor....

 

[mafeeker]

Brewing competitions are not recipe competitions. They should judge technique. There is a huge difference between having a good recipe and brewing a good beer. I see nothing wrong with submitting a clone, though I would expect you give credit to the original brewer.

 

[Indyking]

Brewing competitions are not recipe competitions. They should judge technique. There is a huge difference between having a good recipe and brewing a good beer. I see nothing wrong with submitting a clone, though I would expect you give credit to the original brewer.

Sure, I will credit myself, if I ever get any award that is... ;-)

 

[JoeBronco]

9 pages later...

I just finished up a Pliny the Elder clone the other day (NOT my Agave one) and it was step by step how Vinny from Russian River put it out in paper. It was VERY close to the original, but still did not have the nose that Elder has. While i have tried a few times to make the same exact beer, i have yet to succeed. I guess that's why Pliny the Younger tastes different every year...

 

[cklages]

Personally I think that it would all come down to what exactly you need to get out of the competition. You have to ask the age old question that can be so hard to answer 'what do you want?'.

If you want to know if your process can produce a beer that those with somewhat refined palates deem really good, than why try to re-invent the wheel recipe wise?

If you know your process is great, but want to know if you can formulate a recipe that pushes the limits of a style in a way that impresses judges, why brew a clone?

If you want an award to hang on a wall that has no other intrinsic value, why not just print one up on the old bubble jet and buy a frame?

Considering that you don't exactly see homebrew competitions with $100,000 grand prizes, it seems that the first question one must ask before entering is 'what exactly am I trying to get out of this'. Once you have answered that question, I imagine that your course of action would be laid bare in front of you.

I personally am still trying to make a beer that really impresses SWMBO. The reason I don't steam the labels off of some Bud light is, that's not what I want.

 

[doctorRobert]

Personally I think that it would all come down to what exactly you need to get out of the competition. You have to ask the age old question that can be so hard to answer 'what do you want?'.

If you want to know if your process can produce a beer that those with somewhat refined palates deem really good, than why try to re-invent the wheel recipe wise?

If you know your process is great, but want to know if you can formulate a recipe that pushes the limits of a style in a way that impresses judges, why brew a clone?

If you want an award to hang on a wall that has no other intrinsic value, why not just print one up on the old bubble jet and buy a frame?

Considering that you don't exactly see homebrew competitions with $100,000 grand prizes, it seems that the first question one must ask before entering is 'what exactly am I trying to get out of this'. Once you have answered that question, I imagine that your course of action would be laid bare in front of you.

I personally am still trying to make a beer that really impresses SWMBO. The reason I don't steam the labels off of some Bud light is, that's not what I want.

Because you make A change the recipe is yours now? I would haver liked your logic better if you said every recipe must have been created from the ground up without ever seeing another recipe.

But in general I agree with everyone else. The brew is far harder than the recipe.

 

[Ace_Club]

Because you make A change the recipe is yours now?

Yes, this is exactly right.

 

[TheBrewAbides]

I don't have the time to read all 9 pages of this thread so "please to excuse" if someone already stated this but...

In the book Microbrewed Adventures by Charlie Papazian (a book where Charlie, president of the Great American Beer Festival, also experienced competition judge, tells stories about his beer adventures) tells a story where he was judging a competition. After the winner is declared, the winner informs Charlie that the beer that just won first prize was brewed from Charlies own recipe in one of his old books. He took the recipe straight from Charlie. And Charlie was pretty much delighted about the whole thing.

Moral of the story...it's all in the motion of the ocean (technique)

 

[cklages]

Because you make A change the recipe is yours now?

Considering there are generally only four ingredients, a single change impacts 25% of those ingredients, no? What do you think the threshold should be, 50%?

 

[gunner65]

Considering there are generally only four ingredients, a single change impacts 25% of those ingredients, no? What do you think the threshold should be, 50%?

Bazinga!

 

[AnOldUR]

Considering there are generally only four ingredients, a single change impacts 25% of those ingredients, no? What do you think the threshold should be, 50%?

So, all you brew are SMaSH beers with one hop addition?

 

[cklages]

So, all you brew are SMaSH beers with one hop addition?

:cross: so I try to be a smart alec once and get called on it

I don't know how "but want to know if you can formulate a recipe that pushes the limits of a style in a way that impresses judges, why brew a clone" got turned into making a small tweak to someone else's recipe and calling it your own.

I still do believe that some innovation is going on, even inside relatively narrowly defined BJCP styles, and I appreciate those who are doing it. I know it isn't me doing it, in fact I spend more time riding coat tails than anything in this hobby.

My point was, there is nothing wrong with submitting a direct clone if thats what gets you where you need to go, there is also something to be said for striking out in a new direction, even if its only new to you.

Of course, you don't want to get too serious, its just beer right? *ducks*

 

[Indyking]

:cross: so I try to be a smart alec once and get called on it

I don't know how "but want to know if you can formulate a recipe that pushes the limits of a style in a way that impresses judges, why brew a clone" got turned into making a small tweak to someone else's recipe and calling it your own.

I still do believe that some innovation is going on, even inside relatively narrowly defined BJCP styles, and I appreciate those who are doing it. I know it isn't me doing it, in fact I spend more time riding coat tails than anything in this hobby.

My point was, there is nothing wrong with submitting a direct clone if thats what gets you where you need to go, there is also something to be said for striking out in a new direction, even if its only new to you.

Of course, you don't want to get too serious, its just beer right? *ducks*

From all the controversy created here, good and bad posts, jokes, sarcasm, etc, etc, I think I liked your comment the most! Very good point of view. Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Shinglejohn]

IM going to weigh in on this, but i am not going to read more the the 2 pages i already did.

I think "clone" recipes are just recipes that somebody made trying to immitate some commercial beer. They are not(usually) the actual recipe from the brewery. Unless your trying to sell the beer, i dont see any moral objection.

Under that moral clause, would it also be objectionable to enter a recipe posted by a fellow HBT user?

 

[AnOldUR]

Under that moral clause, would it also be objectionable to enter a recipe posted by a fellow HBT user?

The only objection would be the hit to his ego if you beat the author in a head to head contest using his recipe.
Otherwise I think most here would be honored to have their work showcased.


Just be sure to give credit where credit is due.
Don't rename the recipe to make it seem like yours.

 

[Special Hops]

If you don't want "your recipe" stolen or copied, then guard it in a top security bank vault like Coca Cola. It's as simple as that. Anyone that publishes or shares his recipe, IMO, is giving permission for anyone else to use it.

 

[Rippt530]

+1 breweries usually share their recipes, sometimes their yeast, and converting technique from a 15-xxx barrel brewhouse to 5 gallons is the hard part.
I am trying to hit up the Bethlehem Brew Works to see if they will give me some yeast to play with.

 

[Shinglejohn]

I think most here would be honored to have their work showcased.

I know i would.

 

[LarryC]

I didn't read every page in this thread so maybe this has been stated a few times before. I brew using recipes I find on the web or get from books. I do my best to perfect my processes so I get good results and a tasty beer. I would never try to claim that I created a recipe that I didn't. But at the same time I would not hesitate to enter a beer I made to someone's recipe in a contest if my process resulted in a great batch of beer. To me, that shows I have good brewing skills today - maybe tomorrow I'll have great recipe skills...

 

[cklages]

To me, that shows I have good brewing skills today - maybe tomorrow I'll have great recipe skills...

It is important to develop skills 'You know, like nunchuck skills, bowhunting skills, computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.'

Anyone name the movie?:fro:

Sorry I know thats a little

 

[Special Hops]

Napoleon Dynamite

 

[taalhiker]

My local homebrew club is having 'clone competition' where you turn in your beer and the commercial beer you were trying to clone. Not BJCP-based judging but purely 'how close did you get to the real thing?'

 

[JoeBronco]

My local homebrew club is having 'clone competition' where you turn in your beer and the commercial beer you were trying to clone. Not BJCP-based judging but purely 'how close did you get to the real thing?'

Thats a bit diffrent. They are asking you to clone.

 

[cklages]

My local homebrew club is having 'clone competition' where you turn in your beer and the commercial beer you were trying to clone. Not BJCP-based judging but purely 'how close did you get to the real thing?'

That sounds like a really fun contest, plus it sounds a lot easier to judge as its easier to taste what's different between two samples rather than judging something on its own merits. It would be even neater if the judges didn't know which was the commercial and which was the homebrewed, perhaps it would allow some brewers to show up the commercial equivalent!