Suicide is an ugly, cowardly thing to do.
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sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Ha ha, yes, you're right. Thank you.
Hey man. We are all human.
Simple differences can lead some people down the wrong path.
Simple differences can lead some people down the wrong path.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Dan said:
It happens with the app. If you post and it doesn't send right away, sometimes it will post through twice when you get back on. It is obnoxious, and doesn't mean your posts are twice as important
Hey manIt happens with the app. If you post and it doesn't send right away, sometimes it will post through twice when you get back on. It is obnoxious, and doesn't mean your posts are twice as important
I think most of us understand that. You're good. No worries.
zeg
Well-Known Member
I'm very sorry to hear about this loss.
A few years ago, a faculty member in my department in grad school committed suicide. He was a world-class astrophysicist, probably within a hair's breadth of a Nobel prize, had an exciting lab, was loved by his students and respected by essentially everyone. It was a shock, as it almost always is. In his case, he was a driven, dedicated person, who had demonstrated clearly that he could accomplish just about anything he set his mind to. Tragically, for some reason that I'll never know, he set his mind to destroying himself.
Although I was tempted, especially when I saw his teenaged sons at the memorial service, to brand him a coward and a fool and leave it at that, it's just not that simple. All the other evidence disagreed: this man was no coward, and he was no fool.
No, suicide is something that is very difficult to understand. It doesn't make sense, at least not in a culture where an individual's life is as prized as it is in ours.
I've faced depression, and although I have never had any serious suicidal thoughts or urges, I can sympathize with those who do. Certainly I have found myself stressed beyond belief, in a hole where some humiliating, unbearable failure with dreadful consequences looms inescapable. Then, after I survive somehow and look back, I realize how skewed my perspective was. For some reason, trapped in the moment, obvious and perfectly achievable solutions were not considered. Those humiliating, dreadful consequences were usually gross exaggerations. Most of the crushing stress was created entirely within the confines of my own skull.
So I can at least begin to understand how someone could find themselves believing that there's no other way out.
Anyway, there are many other things I could add here, but I think I've said enough. Just to close, I agree. Suicide is a cowardly act, and a thoughtless, selfish act. There is no question of that. But the bravest, most loving, caring, selfless people sometimes commit cowardly, thoughtless, selfish acts. It hurts to lose someone you love, to see the pain that their senseless death inflicts on those who love them, and hurt and anger and confusion are among the few sensible reactions to that pain. But all of us would be judged poorly in our lowest, worst moment.
I think this question would be best served by starting a separate thread. It does not seem appropriate to me to discuss it in this one.
(edit: though it seems others disagreed... still, it seems like a somewhat separate discussion, and out of place to me.)
A few years ago, a faculty member in my department in grad school committed suicide. He was a world-class astrophysicist, probably within a hair's breadth of a Nobel prize, had an exciting lab, was loved by his students and respected by essentially everyone. It was a shock, as it almost always is. In his case, he was a driven, dedicated person, who had demonstrated clearly that he could accomplish just about anything he set his mind to. Tragically, for some reason that I'll never know, he set his mind to destroying himself.
Although I was tempted, especially when I saw his teenaged sons at the memorial service, to brand him a coward and a fool and leave it at that, it's just not that simple. All the other evidence disagreed: this man was no coward, and he was no fool.
No, suicide is something that is very difficult to understand. It doesn't make sense, at least not in a culture where an individual's life is as prized as it is in ours.
I've faced depression, and although I have never had any serious suicidal thoughts or urges, I can sympathize with those who do. Certainly I have found myself stressed beyond belief, in a hole where some humiliating, unbearable failure with dreadful consequences looms inescapable. Then, after I survive somehow and look back, I realize how skewed my perspective was. For some reason, trapped in the moment, obvious and perfectly achievable solutions were not considered. Those humiliating, dreadful consequences were usually gross exaggerations. Most of the crushing stress was created entirely within the confines of my own skull.
So I can at least begin to understand how someone could find themselves believing that there's no other way out.
Anyway, there are many other things I could add here, but I think I've said enough. Just to close, I agree. Suicide is a cowardly act, and a thoughtless, selfish act. There is no question of that. But the bravest, most loving, caring, selfless people sometimes commit cowardly, thoughtless, selfish acts. It hurts to lose someone you love, to see the pain that their senseless death inflicts on those who love them, and hurt and anger and confusion are among the few sensible reactions to that pain. But all of us would be judged poorly in our lowest, worst moment.
I think this question would be best served by starting a separate thread. It does not seem appropriate to me to discuss it in this one.
(edit: though it seems others disagreed... still, it seems like a somewhat separate discussion, and out of place to me.)
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Zeg, dear Zeg.
Your hurt, explanation and wonder are well explained.
Nobody will ever figure this hurtfull subject out.
I'm not sure what any of us can do to deter it. When a person goes into a dark side and all they can think about is death, we've lost them. Would be better to never let them get to that point.
What are your opinions on that? I'm not putting you under the gun, you can say nothing and nobody will think badly. Just wondering your opinion if you want to give it.
How do we keep them from getting to the point that suicide is the only way out? No response required. Sure there many here on HBT that will answer. Hope that doesn't sound condescending; I sure as hell didn't mean it to be.
Your hurt, explanation and wonder are well explained.
Nobody will ever figure this hurtfull subject out.
I'm not sure what any of us can do to deter it. When a person goes into a dark side and all they can think about is death, we've lost them. Would be better to never let them get to that point.
What are your opinions on that? I'm not putting you under the gun, you can say nothing and nobody will think badly. Just wondering your opinion if you want to give it.
How do we keep them from getting to the point that suicide is the only way out? No response required. Sure there many here on HBT that will answer. Hope that doesn't sound condescending; I sure as hell didn't mean it to be.
reinstone
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I will drink to that. Suicide is better than harming other innocent people. Nothing morbid Dan. Just real life some people have a hard time with real life. You and I will get some shi, over it. But who cares its the truth To all the crazies if you ever wanted to do something more than you want to live....ask yourself.......does it hurt another ? If yes, go ahead , off with your head. Suicide is best. Bye!!
zeg
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. It's certainly not my thread to police. As long as things stay thoughtful and respectful (which, by all indications, they have and will) my concerns are satisfied, I just didn't like the idea of what started as something of a grief/condolences thread turning into a debate on the relative values of lives. In any case, my comment was just a vote, I'm unlikely to throw a tantrum if the discussions occur here. I do think your questions are interesting ones.
That certainly is the big question, isn't it? Since we don't know what causes someone to get into that sort of thinking, it's hard to know how to prevent it.
I think we all know the feeling of getting out of bed on the wrong side. For no apparent reason, you find yourself grumpy or angry, and you just start the day off in a bad mood. Later in the day, or the next day, or whenever you emerge from the funk, you realize, "Hey, I was in a bad mood for no reason." But in the moment, you're just pissed off or whatever.
Emotions pretty fundamentally don't make sense. We don't feel logically, and the best we can do is perhaps get a sense for what causes us to feel a particular emotional response. We're still going to be surprised sometimes.
Just musing out loud, I wonder if there's an element of mistaking emotion for reason that enters into a suicide. Certainly in my own stressful moments, I could believe that's part of it.
To get back to your question a bit, I don't think I'm very hopeful that we'll ever eliminate suicidal urges and suicides. They've been part of human experience for too long, I think there's something to them that is unfortunately intrinsic to human nature. (On a related note, are suicides solely a human phenomenon?)
Something that I think would help many people would be a wider acceptance of emotions and recognition that mental/emotional crises or problems are something that we all face at times, and in varying degrees. Recognition of this has certainly been increasing in recent times, but there's still a strong stigma of weakness associated with it. This can't help, and I think it causes harm in at least two ways. First, it leads some to believe that there is something wrong with them because they can't handle the stress like everyone else can. Yet, more than likely, everyone else has just as much difficulty! Second, when someone does start to recognize that they are in need of help and support, they're probably much nearer to a crisis than they needed to be. If it were more widely accepted that people needed to routinely "treat" themselves, it'd be easier to seek help sooner.
Anyway, those are just a few thoughts. I really don't think there's a societal cure, but I do think we can help more people get treatment for the sorts of depression that can lead down that awful road.
What?
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Dan said:
It's Friday night = some folks is drunk. Lets regroup tomorrow afternoon
Zeg, I'm not heading off off to bed, but can't give a good response to your thought provoking post just now.. I did read it through, but not exactly with a clear head. Let me re-read it tomorrow after some sleep. You make a lot of great points, I just can't quite clearly respond now.
Alive. Life doesn't entirely suck anymore. My instincts for self preservation mostly work again.
Yeah, I wouldn't have believed that a year ago, but the whole time thing is true. I guess it's a cliche because it's true.
It's ironic I've been able to tell random people I've never met this stuff, on a public forum no less, but can't seem to discuss it with my family. In any event, I do feel better having told someone. . . Maybe I should give the therapist another try?
Leadgolm
Expose yourself on a public form? Here you are aynonimous (or however that's spelled)
It's a bit easier to bare a soul when nobody knows you personally. You are among anonymous friends who have no desire to judge.
Expose yourself on a public form? Here you are aynonimous (or however that's spelled)
It's a bit easier to bare a soul when nobody knows you personally. You are among anonymous friends who have no desire to judge.
zeg
Well-Known Member
Funny, isn't it? Sometimes those we're closest to are the hardest to talk to about these things.
From one random person on the Internet to another, I would suggest that you do try again with a therapist. If it's not working, try a different one. The difference between talking to the right one and the wrong one (for you) can be enormous. Not everyone gets much out of therapy, but I think it's worth giving it a few genuine tries. Even with the "right" therapist, it can take a while to develop a good rapport.
Does it matter if they have a moral conscience about it if they don't stop?
There are things done to try to rehabilitate people. What those things are, specifically, I don't know. Recidivism is a possibility.
Dunno. It's hard to imagine what anyone is truly thinking.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Leadgolem said:If you spend about 2 minutes searching my username, you'll be able to find out exactly who I am. I was curious one day, so I did it.
Your name is Greg, you own a Toyota?
I hope you're being sarcastic. The hurt that survivors feel never goes away. My friends who have lost children spend the rest of their lives asking themselves what they did wrong, what they could or should have done to prevent it, why they didn't see it coming and fix the problem. Slap me upside the head with a 2X4, that pain will go away in a few days, but the pain suicide causes never ends.
Ding ding ding. The internet is way less anon then it used to be. We are moving into the era of persistent identity.
thood6
Well-Known Member
First I'd like to echo everyone by sending my sympathy to the OP and everyone who has lost someone.
But I'd like to also say that unless you have been in that situation where you are facing the prospect of spending your life miserable I would hesitate to judge the person or call them selfish.
I've been there, where all I wanted to do is sleep. Where the prospect of waking up the next morning just felt like a huge weight hanging over me. I was close to doing something I couldn't take back. The only thing that walked me back was the thought of my parents after the fact and the help I finally got.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in each situation the victims coping mechanism can no longer handle the load of coping they must do. Until someone understands the hopelessness that that feeling brings, trying to relate seems fruitless to me.
Now I hesitate to extend that sympathy to those like Mr. Lanza but maybe that's just because I never felt violent towards anyone. IMO if the reason for the suicide is really avoiding the pain of life it makes no sense to cause more in others. But there's a lot in mental illness that's not real logical I suppose.
All of this being said, I'm glad I'm still here and I'm always espousing how good psychological help is. I cannot speak highly enough about it and recommend it to everyone who is having a rough time.
But I'd like to also say that unless you have been in that situation where you are facing the prospect of spending your life miserable I would hesitate to judge the person or call them selfish.
I've been there, where all I wanted to do is sleep. Where the prospect of waking up the next morning just felt like a huge weight hanging over me. I was close to doing something I couldn't take back. The only thing that walked me back was the thought of my parents after the fact and the help I finally got.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in each situation the victims coping mechanism can no longer handle the load of coping they must do. Until someone understands the hopelessness that that feeling brings, trying to relate seems fruitless to me.
Now I hesitate to extend that sympathy to those like Mr. Lanza but maybe that's just because I never felt violent towards anyone. IMO if the reason for the suicide is really avoiding the pain of life it makes no sense to cause more in others. But there's a lot in mental illness that's not real logical I suppose.
All of this being said, I'm glad I'm still here and I'm always espousing how good psychological help is. I cannot speak highly enough about it and recommend it to everyone who is having a rough time.
Sorry for everyone's losses.
My girlfriends cousin hung herself just a year ago. I'd grown up with her and I feel terrible for her. My SWMBO gets mad at me because the girls parents are still taking it hard and I have no pity on them. Their daughter was suffering from depression and had tried several times to kill herself, but her parents didn't try to get any real help, and actually hid it from the rest of the family and friends. Nobody had any idea that anything was less than perfect.
I feel sorry for the rest of the family, but am I wrong for not feeling bad for the parents?
My girlfriends cousin hung herself just a year ago. I'd grown up with her and I feel terrible for her. My SWMBO gets mad at me because the girls parents are still taking it hard and I have no pity on them. Their daughter was suffering from depression and had tried several times to kill herself, but her parents didn't try to get any real help, and actually hid it from the rest of the family and friends. Nobody had any idea that anything was less than perfect.
I feel sorry for the rest of the family, but am I wrong for not feeling bad for the parents?
zeg
Well-Known Member
I slightly disagree, but it may be more a matter of how I'd phrase it than a real disagreement. I think it's accurate to describe suicide as selfish. In a rather twisted sense, it does solve your problems, but it does so by deeply and irreparably scarring those you leave behind.
However, you're right that it's not wise to simply call the person selfish as a general characteristic. Acts are selfish, and some people commit more selfish acts than others. Turning your memory of someone into a negative image simply because of a terrible end to their life may be cathartic, at least temporarily, but it does nothing positive in the long run.
This, this, a thousand times this. Anyone who is feeling down or bad regularly should look into help. If there's even a slight feeling that something is off, contact someone and talk about it. The worst that happens is they tell you that you're fine. The alternative is realizing 15 years later how much happier you could have been for the last decade and a half.
And not only depressed people benefit from talking to a psychologist or other therapist from time to time. There are a lot of things that are hard to talk about with friends or loved ones. As someone above noted (Leadgolem, IIRC), it's paradoxically sometimes easier to talk about deeply personal things in semi-anonymous Internet forums than it is with a loved one. Therapy can provide a similar low-emotional-stakes venue where you can talk things through.
I hesitate to describe feelings as "right" or "wrong." We feel what we feel, and often---especially in cases as emotionally charged as suicide---we don't have the power to choose those feelings. However, I'd suggest thinking hard about how you express those feelings to others. Whether you feel pity or sympathy for the parents is your own business, but if you're trying to make those feelings known or to convince others to feel this way, then that is somewhere between unwise and cruel. If your girlfriend is upset because she asked about your feelings and didn't like the response, that's a bit different.
All that said, if you haven't already done so, I think it might benefit you to spend some time thinking about your feelings about that girl's parents. Do you really feel no pity for them, or do you feel both pity for their loss and powerful anger about their inaction? It's possible to feel both---you don't have to decide whether they've "earned" the right to have you feel bad for them. If you feel they should have done more to protect their child, then it's natural to feel angry, but I find it hard to imagine not feeling awful for someone who lost their daughter that way.
From your description, though, I wonder how you know they did not try to get "real help." Depression and suicide attempts aren't something that, in my experience, are shared very widely with family and friends. Unless they have some specific reason to think that a person needs to be involved in providing help, I would expect them to treat something like that as exceptionally private and confidential and let their daughter decide how widely she wants to share the information, other than with a professional therapist.
Unless you know specifically otherwise, I think it's a far safer assumption that they had done something to try to help. Your being angry with them is not going to help any, and I can guarantee you they are going to be far too busy grieving, suffering, and wondering what else they could have done to even notice whether anyone else thinks they did enough.
zeg said:
I haven't told anyone my thoughts on it other than my girlfriend. Hadn't said anything to her until she asked.
As for the parents doing everything they could have, I don't think they did. She'd tried to kill herself several times before. A week before she died she was caught attempting to hang herself, but she wasn't brought to a doctor or mental facility. If it was my child I'd call the police and have her arrested, but a week after she was left at home alone again and this time she was succesful
Goofynewfie
Well-Known Member
first to the original poster, sorry for your loss. the death of a loved one is hard enough, no matter what the cause.
I know exactly where you're coming from. Two years ago my sister in law was found dead on her kitchen floor. she was 25 years old ,had mental health problems and had attempted suicide numerous times in the past. no autopsy done and she was cremated.
to this very day you ask any member of my wife's family the cause of death was a heart attack. a perfectly healthy 25 year old who had no history of heart problems died of a heart attack. I understand their feelings but denying what happen is not going to help anyone else in the family.
I know exactly where you're coming from. Two years ago my sister in law was found dead on her kitchen floor. she was 25 years old ,had mental health problems and had attempted suicide numerous times in the past. no autopsy done and she was cremated.
to this very day you ask any member of my wife's family the cause of death was a heart attack. a perfectly healthy 25 year old who had no history of heart problems died of a heart attack. I understand their feelings but denying what happen is not going to help anyone else in the family.
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