I s there the possibility that your cousin went off some serious medication. Not all to long ago I went off klonopin and the intensity of the withdrawal and mind f--- of it made me start thinking of killing myself. Thankfully I got through it but stuff like that happens. I've seen a lot of premature death in my life and it sucks I hope you are getting through it well and can help your cousins kids.
Suicide is an ugly, cowardly thing to do.
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I was just thinking about this point today. My father told me this morning that his GF has about 6 months to live. She was fighting a very rare form of liver cancer, but just recently was told that there's not much hope. About 20 minutes later while drinking my coffee, I was reading a story about a guy who jumped off of the bridge I drive over every day for work. My Dad's GF was the first thought in my mind. She'd probably do anything to have what that guy gave up so that she could be there for her young kids. It's a damn shame.
my wife's first cousin was thrown out by his mother for drug use. the mother told him to get out until he could "become a human". he spent most of the night under her porch. around 5 a.m., loud shotgun blast. she found her son, minus his head, under the porch. totally messed up.
True. It is also true that the desire to end your own life does not make someone mentally ill.
Trying to shove the desire to suicide into a big black box labeled "mental illness" is just avoiding the issue. Perfectly normally, well balanced, well adjusted people suffer trauma that causes them to want to end their own lives. They aren't sick, they are emotionally wounded. That kind of emotional wound can, and does, happen to people all the time. It doesn't make then weak to be in more pain then they can tolerate.
It's like being in a bad car accident. It's going to hurt. More then you knew it was possible to hurt, but not forever. It's going to leave scars, and places that ache sometimes. It does eventually get better though.
What they need is time, and a little comfort. They don't need someone to trying to dissect there every action and reaction. The mental health professional I went to see was utterly useless. As I said, I wasn't mentally ill. A psychiatrists job isn't to provide comfort, it's to treat mental illness. What I wish I had done, was tell my family how I felt. It would have helped to know that someone loved me. Not a great deal, but some.
That doesn't mean that someone who takes their own life isn't mentally ill. However, it isn't "ipso facto" the case.
Please excuse me if I have offended anyone. That is not my intention, nor can any human ever truly tell what is going on inside another. My statements are based on my own personal experience, and I am certainly to close to the experience to be entirely objective.
Wow, this thread.
While I was in the Navy we had to take every suicide gesture as it was an outcry for help. Do you know how many young disturbed Sailors figured this out and used it? Makes you a bit numb after awhile to the BS. Like the boy that cried wolf thing. I have found in my dealing with it there have been no obvious signs. Acting out, trying to unsuccessfully kill yourself is certainly one. But more are less ostentatious, they are people who have bottled everything up. I wouldn't say gun control would make a difference. By the time a person wants to kill themselves, the manner doesn't matter.
While I was in the Navy we had to take every suicide gesture as it was an outcry for help. Do you know how many young disturbed Sailors figured this out and used it? Makes you a bit numb after awhile to the BS. Like the boy that cried wolf thing. I have found in my dealing with it there have been no obvious signs. Acting out, trying to unsuccessfully kill yourself is certainly one. But more are less ostentatious, they are people who have bottled everything up. I wouldn't say gun control would make a difference. By the time a person wants to kill themselves, the manner doesn't matter.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
True Dan.. In fact from my experience the people who talk about killing themselves are the more narcissistic, less likely to kill themselves people. For example my ex-MIL would constantly talk about killing herself. And yet I don't think I've met anyone more in love with themselves than that woman. Then there's my friends dad. He probably had that old .38 pistol for 30 years. Maybe he looked at it and thought about it every day, maybe he got a box of ammo that morning knowing only one round would ever be fired. Either way we never saw it coming.
And that's the worry, the problem. I'm just talking from experience, no advanced psychological educations here. As much as you want to see it coming and make a difference, you won't. I'm out of my realm now. Have been since I first posted on this thread. I wish some psychiatrist and ministers would throw in.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Dan said:
If we could get Malfet involved he'd probably have some interesting insight. He has no special diploma himself as far as I know, but his wife works closely with the mentally ill and I know he takes interest in her work. And he's an all around clever fellow besides.
I'd really like to hear Malfet's take. He seems to be a guy who see's things unemotionally and takes a logical stance. I once posted on a debate thread and he replied. I had no ground for what I said and he didn't make me feel like an idiot but did have a logical argument for my dumb words.
I know I didn't say anything to anybody until after I had made the decision to refrain from killing myself. Walking that knife edge between the amount of pain you would choose not to tolerate if you had the choice, and the amount you can tolerate, sucks donkey balls.
When your stuck there it's odd. You don't do anything that is high risk or anything. You're just kinda disappointed when something that might have killed you didn't.
I remember spinning out driving to work in my truck. I wasn't driving recklessly or even aggressively. I just hit a patch of black ice. Even while I was trying to regain control I was hoping I would flip my truck or something and break my neck. I remember being disappointed when nothing really happened. I pulled my truck back onto the road with no damage, I wasn't even late for work.
It was kinda like checking the numbers on your lottery ticket when none of them match. Not a surprise, but a little disappointing.
You see, if I had died accidentally then I wasn't breaking my word. I wouldn't be responsible for the thing that ended my life.
That's a very odd emotional state. When you can't conceive of anything more painful then continuing to live, it isn't possible for anything to scare you. You do have to think more. All of your normal instincts for self preservation are shut down. If you don't fill that gap with your mind, then you could end up dead anyway. Not because you are actually trying to kill yourself, but because the normal instinct that would have saved your life isn't working.
When your stuck there it's odd. You don't do anything that is high risk or anything. You're just kinda disappointed when something that might have killed you didn't.
I remember spinning out driving to work in my truck. I wasn't driving recklessly or even aggressively. I just hit a patch of black ice. Even while I was trying to regain control I was hoping I would flip my truck or something and break my neck. I remember being disappointed when nothing really happened. I pulled my truck back onto the road with no damage, I wasn't even late for work.
It was kinda like checking the numbers on your lottery ticket when none of them match. Not a surprise, but a little disappointing.
You see, if I had died accidentally then I wasn't breaking my word. I wouldn't be responsible for the thing that ended my life.
That's a very odd emotional state. When you can't conceive of anything more painful then continuing to live, it isn't possible for anything to scare you. You do have to think more. All of your normal instincts for self preservation are shut down. If you don't fill that gap with your mind, then you could end up dead anyway. Not because you are actually trying to kill yourself, but because the normal instinct that would have saved your life isn't working.
I can't seem to delete this post, so just editing it away. Had second thoughts about saying what I was going to say.
This isn't a comfortable subject for anybody. Say what you got to say. No judging here.
Appreciate the gesture, but I think you said it best (for me anyway) when you said:
I don't see suicide victims as cowards. I'll just say that. I see them as victims of mental illness, and in doing so, I acknowledge that being suicidal doesn't literally require mental illness, but I believe in the vast majority of cases it is indeed a result of mental illness.
Sorry about all the stress and pain you and your family are going through maxamuus - there is no easy way through it.
My cousin killed himself four years ago - right after his second child was born and it was very devastating. He had plenty of issues in his life that contributed to this, I can't even pretend to understand what led him to make his choice. Since then his wife and daughters moved and have completely cut off contact with the rest of the family (even though all of us reached out to her multiple times.) My uncle (his dad) passed away a year and a half later and there is little doubt in my mind that this contributed to his decline greatly.
My only non-professional advice would be to talk about it with your family - if everyone acts embarrassed or guilty about it then her death can have even longer lasting effects.
Best of luck with this terrible situation.
My cousin killed himself four years ago - right after his second child was born and it was very devastating. He had plenty of issues in his life that contributed to this, I can't even pretend to understand what led him to make his choice. Since then his wife and daughters moved and have completely cut off contact with the rest of the family (even though all of us reached out to her multiple times.) My uncle (his dad) passed away a year and a half later and there is little doubt in my mind that this contributed to his decline greatly.
My only non-professional advice would be to talk about it with your family - if everyone acts embarrassed or guilty about it then her death can have even longer lasting effects.
Best of luck with this terrible situation.
Suicide is not something that any of us are likely going to be able to understand, unless maybe you've faced it before. Calling someone a coward or saying they should have "just asked for help" are simplifications to something much more complex than most can imagine. I would have to believe that most people in these positions feel that, for some reason or another, no one can really help them.
In defense of the accusatory, it's hard to channel our emotions when something like this happens to someone close to us.
When the time is right, you could start an annual barley wine (or something similar) in the person's honor. May sound cheesy, but that's what I'm doing for a friend who departed earlier this year.
In defense of the accusatory, it's hard to channel our emotions when something like this happens to someone close to us.
When the time is right, you could start an annual barley wine (or something similar) in the person's honor. May sound cheesy, but that's what I'm doing for a friend who departed earlier this year.
Sorry if my inital post came off a little harsh. At first i was upset, then it just turned to anger that such a young beautiful woman with kids could do such a thing.
I guess its not for me to judge.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary.aspx?pid=162100180#fbLoggedOut
I guess its not for me to judge.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary.aspx?pid=162100180#fbLoggedOut
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Very pretty. Very strange indeed..
About 10 years ago our local high school had a long string of suicides, probably 6 in just a few months, and the school got word of a mass suicide scheduled to take place at school so they closed it for several days. My daughter and son were personal friends with most of the kids, my wife and I knew most of them from athletics and band. My kids went to the first 3 or 4 funerals, after that they just couldn't do it anymore.There was no obvious mental illness among the kids I knew, one day they were living and loving life as high school juniors and seniors, the next they were dead. Last month a friend's 15 year old son killed himself for no apparent reason. 15 years ago a friend's 14 year old daughter killed herself because she got her very first C grade on a paper and she decided she was a failure, too stupid to keep living.
I've never known an adult who committed suicide, I'm sure they have "better" reasons, but I'll never understand how things could be so bad for a teenager that death is the only way out. Maybe it's because we live in a small town where everybody knows everybody, but it seems like suicide has become the answer to all of life's little speed bumps. These suicides have destroyed families, the suicide of a child is something that parents and siblings never recover from.
I've never known an adult who committed suicide, I'm sure they have "better" reasons, but I'll never understand how things could be so bad for a teenager that death is the only way out. Maybe it's because we live in a small town where everybody knows everybody, but it seems like suicide has become the answer to all of life's little speed bumps. These suicides have destroyed families, the suicide of a child is something that parents and siblings never recover from.
Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much, or maybe not enough, but there seems to be some sort of issue going on upstairs if a bunch of kids were planning mass suicide, committing suicide because of a C grade, etc.
Mental illness isn't always in your face, per se.
Hang Glider
Beer Drinker
almost exactly how I felt when my gf walked out the week before Christmas. It's not that you're thinking of the others you might leave behind, it's really about how much more pain you think you can tolerate. I'm sure it looks very selfish, but doesn't feel selfish. A bad bad storm came thru - I could hear the trees creaking badly, and I just wished I would be in the correct room when it came thru the roof...alas...
(better now...time, you know...)
saramc
Well-Known Member
Unless you have actually dealt with the horrid, disabling conditions that mental illness brings forward you should not speak on this. Even as a friend or family member you do not know. For most who actually attempt suicide they are at the bottom rung, off the ladder...and for many it is the final call for help assuming they survive. The signs have been there, and many are/had been in treatment. Usually the individual is not thinking about anyone else at that time, they just are done. Get educated, individuals with mental illness do nothing to ask for the condition. It is a hard road to come back from, and usually lifelong and these individuals need your support.
rs4life
Well-Known Member
saramc said:
Exactly
wolfstar
Well-Known Member
Word...
I lost several freinds from suicide over the years. It's not cowardly...it's a sickness. With the sickness you are blind to the feelings of others, drowned in wanting to just get way from it all.
I don't believe many would argue your reasoning. Sounds like you have some experience dealing with suicidal people.
Just MY stance, and means nothing. Suicidal people are not easily understood. Whether it be in the life they live and are lost in or by the mourners who see them buried.
Been a question I have wanted to ask since this thread got started. How about honor? Culture? I'm talking otb here but didn't Japanese Samuris consider suicide more honorable than defeat? The men who crashed their planes into Pearl Harbor were on a suicide mission. I don't believe any of them had a choice. It was dictated by some wacked out form of honor.
But when a person with no "honorable" reason takes their own life. I'm not always sure it is mental illness or a loss of the need to live life.
I have thought in my worst times about suicide, but never would do it. To selfish, very selfish.
Man, now that I re-read my post I'm not sure if you have a better point about mental illness than just emotional reaction. Most of us control our emotions to an extent. I truly believe anybody that commits suicide is mentally and emotionally drained, and it becomes there only end.
I'm not huge on any one or anther denominational faith. I was brought up Christian in a Presbeterian denomination. I'm not really a presby any more and rarely go to church. Would probably be better if I was. I think the Catholics are on to something though. Near immediate forgiveness. Confess and repent and all is good. But that's not my point. Believing in something good, having some basic rules enforced, and being surrounded by people who care makes a difference. That's my opinion and any one of them taken to an extreme could be damaging.
This post is not about religion.
I've pretty much lost my train of thought in this point of my ramblings. Suicide sucks. Any of us would stop another person from doing it, if we knew how.
All I can do as a person is try to be a good person to others and maybe recognize when they are having a hard time. Try to help them, be a friend, make tough calls if needed to drag them out of their tough times.
Smurf... if a person can't at least do that for their brother man/ sister. The world will fall apart faster than it is now.
rs4life
Well-Known Member
I can say that having been suicidal before it has made me have the mentality that i would try and save someones life with no regard for my own.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
I think most people who have posted in the thread agree with your stance. I don't feel that not having direct experience with what you've described disqualifies someone from posting though, since even posting in with an ignorant comment will subscribe you to the thread and expose inexperienced ones to other people who have experienced grief and loss. Overall I don't think many would disagree.saramc said:
Dan said:
This post is about religion.
but it's all good. It's more about thinking out loud.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
I think most people who have posted in the thread agree with your stance. I don't feel that not having direct experience with what you've described disqualifies someone from posting though, since even posting in with an ignorant comment will subscribe you to the thread and expose inexperienced ones to other people who have experienced grief and loss. Overall I don't think many would disagree.saramc said:
Dan said:
This post is about religion.
but it's all good. It's more about thinking out loud.
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the horrendously insensitive thread hijack, but what would be the community's thoughts if a child molester killed themself before taking part in an act of molestation? Or if Adam Lanza killed himself before doing what he did? How many suicides actually prevent harm to others?
Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.
Again, sorry for being morbid, but this is a serious question I've always thought about.
Double post.. BB. Dont know why that happens but it does.
I was with you on the first sentence. Second one have no idea who you are talking about.
So, I'll reply to the first sentence.
I hope he does. There are limits to forgiveness. Child molestation is not one of them. Only my opinion but it won't change.
I would prefer they got the help they needed. Reprehensible as it may seem even folks like this likely have family and maybe even friends that would be left behind.
As far as how many prevented harm to others? I think it's impossible to know, but I'd speculate not many.
Okay, Who...99, has a godly point. I'm not sure I"m that good of a person though.
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
The part that makes me wonder about this is: How many people are truly mentally unstable and have uncontrolled perverse desires but also know that their desires are wrong and unethical but they can't stop them? How does one receive treatment for innate desire that cannot be suppressed? It's like trying to teach a normal man to be celibate. I have to imagine that such people with simultaneous strong morals and desires see no end BUT suicide.
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Sorry for not being clear. My point was that often mass murderers kill people and end up ultimately killing themselves. Often times the community responds with comments like "I wish they would have just started their shooting spree with themself", meaning that if they did, everyone else would still be alive.
Suds, just wondering, are you a lawyer?
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
So your avatar is a real photo of you. Ride a bike?
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