Stuck sparge, grain in boil, had a BS brew day!

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DeadGuyNick

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Decided to go for an American oatmeal stout. The grain bill was about 18.5 lbs (inlcuding 2 lb 7 oz of oats). I added rice hulls as well to aid the flow.

Everything started ok. Got 3 gallons off the first run before it started to slow a bit. Decided to transfer to my kettle, stir up the mash a bit, and let it re settle. Bad idea! Never got it going again. Tried everything.

Eventually just tried my best to strain the wort, but a ton of little bits of pieces got through. Didn't have anything on hand (cheese cloth, fine mesh, whatever) to help. Said screw it, we'll see what happens.

Boil went ok, but then running through my wort chiller into fermenter, tons of bits still. Whatever. Threw away my brew day sheet, gonna pitch the yeast and see what happens. I'm expecting it to not turn out well, we'll see.

It was one of those brew days that makes me want to just give up the whole damn hobby.

Edit: Ok, went down, measured, and got 1.090! Better than my estimate! I did add 1/2 gallon of distilled water, and about 1/3 gallon of a starter. I'd rather have the extra volume, and a lower ABV, so I'm happy with that decision. I'm guessing that knocked me down to 1.075-1.080. Either way, this is all starting to turn around, and I'm stoked.
 
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18.5 lbs for how many gallons? Sounds like a bad day with the stuck mash. Could have been worse though, like burning tons of sugar into your stove top...
Also, supposedly clean wort is totally overrated; pretty sure I read that here somewhere.
 
Tobor_8thMan said:
Why not run the chilled wort thru a paint strainer to catch the bits?
Click to expand...

I haven't pitched the yeast yet. Would that make much of a difference at this point? From what I understand the damage is done so far as tannins being extracted during the boil. I don't have any on hand, so I'd have to go get some tomorrow, but that's possible if it's going to make a significant difference.
 
DeadGuyNick said:
I haven't pitched the yeast yet. Would that make much of a difference at this point? From what I understand the damage is done so far as tannins being extracted during the boil. I don't have any on hand, so I'd have to go get some tomorrow, but that's possible if it's going to make a significant difference.
Click to expand...
If your pH was where it should be (and you would have had to do something really radical to mess up the pH enough), you won't have extracted significant tannins in the boil. Decoction mashes boil grain on purpose. They wouldn't do this if tannins were a problem. Don't worry about any bits in your fermenter, they will settle out.

Brew on :mug:
 
DeadGuyNick said:
I haven't pitched the yeast yet. Would that make much of a difference at this point? From what I understand the damage is done so far as tannins being extracted during the boil. I don't have any on hand, so I'd have to go get some tomorrow, but that's possible if it's going to make a significant difference.
Click to expand...

When I brewed stove top more than once I had a few bits in the wort while boiling. I didn't notice any degradation in the final outcome.
 
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Stuck mashes are a real bummer. What kind of oats were you using? If they were the slow cooking (5 minute) they need to be pre cooked before adding to the mash, the 1 minute oats do ok.

I got a brew bag for my mash tun about 30 batches ago and really love it for both ease of mash tun clean up and for safeguard against stuck mashes. I had one or two mashes (I think it was a hefeweizen with 50-60% wheat) that really wanted to stick but having the bag in there let me actually gve it a good stir, then pull the whole mash off my false bottom and and remix it up before dropping it back in place and slowly restarting recirculation this time no sticking at all. I also don't get any grain in my kettle with it but as previous posters have said I never noticed an issue with a bit of grain in the kettle before I added the bag either.
 
DeadGuyNick said:
I haven't pitched the yeast yet. Would that make much of a difference at this point? From what I understand the damage is done so far as tannins being extracted during the boil. I don't have any on hand, so I'd have to go get some tomorrow, but that's possible if it's going to make a significant difference.
Click to expand...
There are quite a few discussion out there that challenge the traditional thought on tannins. Not sure what I believe, but if the Germans can boil a mash, grain and all for a decoction and make a great pilsner, I am guessing your stout will be just fine with a few grains in the boil.

Just my 2 cents, but filtration of the wort at this point may introduce a risk of contamination that could be more of a problem then the particles in the wort.
 
DeadGuyNick said:
Everything started ok. Got 3 gallons off the first run before it started to slow a bit. Decided to transfer to my kettle, stir up the mash a bit, and let it re settle. Bad idea! Never got it going again. Tried everything.
Click to expand...
This often happens to me in my cooler with false bottom mashtun. I think what happens is that small particulates settle to the top of the grain bed and slow/stop the wort from flowing, which would explain why it happens after a few gallons are collected.

When this happens, I use my mash paddle (a thin plastic one), turn it so it is like a blade, and make 10-20 scores to the top of the grain bed about a half inch to 1 inch deep. This cuts through the barrier at the top and enables the wort to flow again without disturbing the majority of the grain bed. This usually has to be repeated every gallon or so as the particles resettle into the scores. This trick has saved my day many times with no apparent impact to efficiency or wort clarity.
 
Holden Caulfield said:
This often happens to me in my cooler with false bottom mashtun. I think what happens is that small particulates settle to the top of the grain bed and slow/stop the wort from flowing, which would explain why it happens after a few gallons are collected.

When this happens, I use my mash paddle (a thin plastic one), turn it so it is like a blade, and make 10-20 scores to the top of the grain bed about a half inch to 1 inch deep. This cuts through the barrier at the top and enables the wort to flow again without disturbing the majority of the grain bed. This usually has to be repeated every gallon or so as the particles resettle into the scores. This trick has saved my day many times with no apparent impact to efficiency or wort clarity.
Click to expand...
Many commercial mash tuns have built in rakes that do this automatically. There is a word for the sludge that builds up on top of the grain mass, but I can't remember what it is.

Brew on :mug:
 
Wow! Thank you ALL for your comments, I've learned a lot already!

I'm gonna go ahead and pitch the yeast, and not worry about the tannins. I'm also going to remember raking the teig next time, see if that does the trick.


eric19312 said:
What kind of oats were you using?...

...I got a brew bag for my mash tun about 30 batches ago and really love it for both ease of mash tun clean up and for safeguard against stuck mashes. ...
Click to expand...

I was using quick, rolled oats. I'm thinking the guminess of oats is what got me, that with a big grain bill. The oats came out to only about 12% of the bill, though. Either way, I'm definitely going to consider that bagged mash idea in the future, especially with these bigger brews. Maybe do 2 or 3 5 gallon mesh bags for larger grain bills? I use a big cooler with a braided SS toilet line for a filter. Maybe I can also finally get some slotted copper pipes in there, too.
 
Gruel said:
18.5 lbs for how many gallons? Sounds like a bad day with the stuck mash. Could have been worse though, like burning tons of sugar into your stove top...
Also, supposedly clean wort is totally overrated; pretty sure I read that here somewhere.
Click to expand...

I ended up with just about 4 gallons after boil. I know a lot of wort got left behind in the grains (no mesh bag on hand to try and squeeze grains out, or whatever), and I spilled a lot trying to find ways to get the flow going again! I'll take a gravity reading, and see if I'm ok with adding some water to bump up volume, otherwise it is what it is!
 
Really, 'Teig' is the word? That just means 'dough'. 4 gallons out of 18.5 lbs of grain, that will make a very sturdy beer - even if you were aiming for 5gallons... I guess that's what stout means.
If it were a lager, it would probably be a double or triple bock, and you could give it one of those -ator names, like 'Nickanator'. Happened to one of my Pilsners this year (didn't correct volume after boiling); it's fun to drink, but you have to stop earlier...
 
Gruel said:
Really, 'Teig' is the word? That just means 'dough'. 4 gallons out of 18.5 lbs of grain, that will make a very sturdy beer - even if you were aiming for 5gallons... I guess that's what stout means.
Click to expand...

If all went to plan this would've had an OG of 1.086 and come out to 9.3% ABV! If I get close to that, or even lower at 7.5-8%, I'll still be happy! I did add more water after the batch sparge to try and fix the mash, so we'll see what I get on my readings.

EDIT: Just measured. As is, I hit 1.090! I'm gonna add my starter with that wort, just under a gallon. That'll mellow it out but also add some volume, and I'm ok with that. Might add a tad water, but I'll measure again after mixing it up.
 
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Gruel said:
Really, 'Teig' is the word? That just means 'dough'.
Click to expand...

just had to look up vorlauf, it means "leader".....but like my italian handle, it sounds cool to an english speaker......lol

(like how the french want all things cooking said in french, all things beer must be spoken in german!)
 
Holden Caulfield said:
This often happens to me in my cooler with false bottom mashtun. I think what happens is that small particulates settle to the top of the grain bed and slow/stop the wort from flowing, which would explain why it happens after a few gallons are collected.

When this happens, I use my mash paddle (a thin plastic one), turn it so it is like a blade, and make 10-20 scores to the top of the grain bed about a half inch to 1 inch deep. This cuts through the barrier at the top and enables the wort to flow again without disturbing the majority of the grain bed. This usually has to be repeated every gallon or so as the particles resettle into the scores. This trick has saved my day many times with no apparent impact to efficiency or wort clarity.
Click to expand...
I have fixed the stuck mash problem! It's easy, use a brew bag, use a pump to under let the strike water, then recirculate the wort WITHOUT ever stirring the mash tun. That's right, don't stir the mash! Yep, throw out that mash paddle. And don't worry, brewing is still fun. Under letting really does prevent dough balls. Where as stirring the mash causes the grist to settle out in layers. Think about yeast cleaning in how the fine particles suspend then settle on top, same thing happens in the mash tun. I crush my grist directly into the mash tun alternating bowl fulls of the malts into the mill as a means of mixing, though it's not really necessary. I also use a flowmeter on the output of my pump for consistency and proof that my mash never even slows down. I under let the mash tun at 2 gallons per minute and then recirculate the wort at 3 gallons per minute, 10 gallon batch.

The brew bag is essential for clear wort to the kettle, just as leaving the hops, and the cold and hot break material in the kettle is important for clear wort to the fermenter. I whirlpool my NEIPA hops at 160 F and then let the wort settle in the kettle overnight. I get all the hop flavor without dry hopping and as a nice side effect the fermenter never erupts krausen out the airlock, even with a hefeweizen. The theory being the yeast cling to the solids causing greater movement which leads to faster fermentation and the eruption. My beers have improved dramatically since I started clear wort brewing. It is right up there with oxygen free brewing techniques. Try it.
 
BarryBrews said:
I have fixed the stuck mash problem! It's easy, use a brew bag, use a pump to under let the strike water, then recirculate the wort WITHOUT ever stirring the mash tun. That's right, don't stir the mash! Yep, throw out that mash paddle. And don't worry, brewing is still fun. Under letting really does prevent dough balls. Where as stirring the mash causes the grist to settle out in layers. Think about yeast cleaning in how the fine particles suspend then settle on top, same thing happens in the mash tun. I crush my grist directly into the mash tun alternating bowl fulls of the malts into the mill as a means of mixing, though it's not really necessary. I also use a flowmeter on the output of my pump for consistency and proof that my mash never even slows down. I under let the mash tun at 2 gallons per minute and then recirculate the wort at 3 gallons per minute, 10 gallon batch.

The brew bag is essential for clear wort to the kettle, just as leaving the hops, and the cold and hot break material in the kettle is important for clear wort to the fermenter. I whirlpool my NEIPA hops at 160 F and then let the wort settle in the kettle overnight. I get all the hop flavor without dry hopping and as a nice side effect the fermenter never erupts krausen out the airlock, even with a hefeweizen. The theory being the yeast cling to the solids causing greater movement which leads to faster fermentation and the eruption. My beers have improved dramatically since I started clear wort brewing. It is right up there with oxygen free brewing techniques. Try it.
Click to expand...
Great process, just a little more technologically advanced for my setup which is pumpless, so raking the teig will just have to suffice for now:)
 
BarryBrews said:
...The theory being the yeast cling to the solids causing greater movement which leads to faster fermentation and the eruption. My beers have improved dramatically since I started clear wort brewing. It is right up there with oxygen free brewing techniques. Try it.
Click to expand...

I think I can attest to this! Lots of grain bits in my fermenter. Pitched last night, this afternoon the blow off tube was going insane! Bubbles constantly, no break! Luckily no overflow, either.

I'll have to consider your method! I don't have a pump. Also not able to leave the kettle out overnight, I brew outside and everything gets stored in the basement. A real PITA when I do a brew day. Waiting on the day I get some space and a garage to work in!
 
DeadGuyNick said:
I'll have to consider your method! I don't have a pump. Also not able to leave the kettle out overnight, I brew outside and everything gets stored in the basement. A real PITA when I do a brew day. Waiting on the day I get some space and a garage to work in!
Click to expand...
Basements can have 240 volt circuits, basement windows can have a exhaust fan installed, and brewing equipment mounted on a wheeled cart makes setup a breeze. BTW a pump will add great joy to your brew day!
Electric Brew Cart.jpeg

The cart is 4 x 2.5 feet and stores away with a BBQ cover between brew days. Features 5500 watt kettle, 1650 watt RIMS, direct to mash grain crushing, both kettle tables tip to minimize dead volumes and aid in cleaning, flow meter for reproducibility and flow confirmation, dual wireless BBQ temperature probes on RIMS input and output(only temperature monitoring needed), pump / CFC mounted on sliding stand, Tubular CFC handles hops and trub without issue, and the heating elements are controlled with SCR voltage regulators(simple & direct control).
 
Woah that's a nice set up! Unfortunately my basement doesn't have any windows, so no exhaust. And the wiring in this house is already a little wonky. I'm just renting a room, so it's really up to the owner to want to do something about that. I doubt getting 240v down there would be top of the list!

I'm brewing with a propane burner now, eventually I'd love to get to an electric set up. I really don't have an excuse, except that I'd still need to drag it all outside, or at least up to the washing machine room, and I'd rather just wait until I get some space. Either way you've inspired me to start doing some real research and making a planned set up for when the time does come! I hate running out of propane mid boil!
 
bracconiere said:
just had to look up vorlauf, it means "leader".....but like my italian handle, it sounds cool to an english speaker......lol

(like how the french want all things cooking said in french, all things beer must be spoken in german!)
Click to expand...
In this context Vorlauf means "what comes first". You know, like the part you're supposed to throw away when distilling. Which is also what "leader" literally means. He/she who leads i.e. comes first. Hence the English term "first runnings". 'cause in English apparently it comes out "running"... :p

As to your Italian handle, to an Italian speaker it only sounds highly illegal... :p;)
 
I think your beer will be fine. Tannin extraction is not something to concern yourself with much. It may even be a myth. Decoction brewing INTENTIONALLY boils grain.

I had a very slow sparge once where I had already used rice hulls. I added another couple of handfuls, stirred them in then continued. The rest of the sparge was easy peasy.
 
kh54s10 said:
I think your beer will be fine. Tannin extraction is not something to concern yourself with much. It may even be a myth. Decoction brewing INTENTIONALLY boils grain.
Click to expand...

I would bet a paycheck that any decoction mash would contain more tannins than the "same" step mash achieved through infusions. It's part of the "malty" decoction flavor.

Every mash extracts tannins. Higher temps extract more. Higher pH extracts more. pH seems to have the bigger impact. What saves decoctions from being tannin bombs is low pH.
 
VikeMan said:
I would bet a paycheck that any decoction mash would contain more tannins than the "same" step mash achieved through infusions. It's part of the "malty" decoction flavor.

Every mash extracts tannins. Higher temps extract more. Higher pH extracts more. pH seems to have the bigger impact. What saves decoctions from being tannin bombs is low pH.
Click to expand...

Mentioning that because Tannin extraction should not be considered a big problem. And unless something is very amiss, you are unlikely to have a pH level that will produce any problems.
 

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