Stuck or just go with it?

[LeeIII]

For my 3rd brew I went all-grain. On top of that, I brewed up a variation on a recipe for a 3 philosophers clone.

My OG was 1.100. Pitched 1 pack Wyeast Trappist HG yeast (yeah, should have gone with 2, live and learn). Good fermentation etc the first week or so. It has now been 3 weeks since it went in the carboy. I did a gravity reading one week ago and it came out at 1.040. Gravity reading yesterday comes out the same.

The main questions:
1. Do I pitch another dose of Wyeast Trappist HG?
2. Do I also include some yeast nutrients?
3. Do I just roll with it and move on to bottling?

I will include some more details on ingredients etc when I get home if that will help.

 

[JLW]

I had a similar problem with a High OG RIS. The mistake I made was transferring to soon to secondary. I let mine age in secondary for 3 months and went from 1.040 to 1.038. I repitched with champagne yeast checked 4 days later and was still at 1.038. So I botteled and I am letting it age until winter. The one I have drank to check cabination was a fantastic beer.

With a High Gravity beer like this you may want to let it age awhile longer in secondary maybe even a month or two. Then see what you get.

What did the recipe call for as OG and TG?

 

[edb23]

that's a really high gravity to bottle at. I would make a starter with the second pack of yeast as well as maybe add a tiny bit of corn sugar just to kick start the yeast. If you bottle that high sometimes bottle bombs can happen. what's you're target FG?

 

[jsweet]

I may wind up in a similar situation in a few weeks -- I brewed a 1.086 Grand Cru on Sunday and realized afterwards I had underpitched. I think I can answer one of the questions though:

(1) Everything I've heard, you can't just repitch. Otherwise I guess what happens is the same as what happened with JLW when he pitched the champagne yeast, you get a little more, but not much. My understanding is you have to either rack it onto an existing yeast cake, or create a starter that has a comparable SG to where your beer is at right now. Otherwise the yeast is not acclimated and it won't do well.

That's what I've heard anyway; I have zero experience with that. There is some thread somewhere where one of the more experienced brewers compared pitching directly into a partially fermented beer to taking a couch potato, helicoptering him up to a few hundred feet from the top of Mount Everest, and telling him to climb the rest of the way. Yeah, it's not very far to go, but since he hasn't yet been acclimated to the strenuous exercise and the high altitude, he ain't gonna make it anyway.

 

[LeeIII]

OG called for 1.100, so I was very happy when I measured that.

FG is supposed to be around 1.025. I will probably leave it go for awhile longer as you suggest and check it and then decide what to do.

I think that you may be onto something when you bring up transferring to secondary too soon, as I transferred at about day 10.

And, general opinion being what it is lately, I may abandon the secondary transfer in my future brewing.


Any recommendations on doing the starter? I guess I would need to get the starter close to 1.045 / 1.050 and let it work for a little bit and then pitch?

 

[edb23]

secondary transfer is still pretty neccasary for high gravity brews, but not till after a pretty solid amount of time sitting in the primary.

 

[jsweet]

Any recommendations on doing the starter? I guess I would need to get the starter close to 1.045 / 1.050 and let it work for a little bit and then pitch?

The post that I was referring to is here. Like I say, I have zero experience doing this. Hopefully I will still have zero experience doing this a few weeks from now, knock on wood But this is where I'm gonna start if I have to.

 

[Yooper]

My OG was 1.100. Pitched 1 pack Wyeast Trappist HG yeast (yeah, should have gone with 2, live and learn).

I will include some more details on ingredients etc when I get home if that will help.

Not to beat you up, but not one, not two, but more like FIVE yeast packages would be needed without a starter. You underpitched by a huge magnitude!


What are the ingredients, and the mash temp? That will help us figure out how to proceed now.

 

[JLW]

My lesson learned was to leave it in primary for at least a month and now that I leave all beers in primary for a month I may leave High OG beers for longer.

Your beer may just be finished. I would tip the carboy on edge and give it a good swirl and see if you can get more movement and then check again in a month. If it hasn't moved I would say your fermentation is just done. I don;t know what the attenuation is for that yeast but it may just be finished. If it is you wouldn't need to owrry about bottle bombs.

 

[jsweet]

Not to beat you up, but not one, not two, but more like FIVE yeast packages would be needed without a starter. You underpitched by a huge magnitude!

This is severely undermining my ability to RDWHAHB. I pitched a single smack pack, with no starter, of Wyeast 3394 into a 1.086 SG Grand Cru. I know better now, but it's a bit late for woulda coulda shoulda....

Won't know for at least a week or two whether it will get stuck, but I'm trying to tell myself it might still just take care of itself with no intervention, so I can worry about it less.

 

[JLW]

This is severely undermining my ability to RDWHAHB. I pitched a single smack pack, with no starter, of Wyeast 3394 into a 1.086 SG Grand Cru. I know better now, but it's a bit late for woulda coulda shoulda....

Won't know for at least a week or two whether it will get stuck, but I'm trying to tell myself it might still just take care of itself with no intervention, so I can worry about it less.

I wouldn't worry much. You did under pitch but I think as long as you are patient with it the beer should finish out fine. I under pitched pretty much every beer I made the first 10 batches or so and they all finished pretty close to FG if not dead on.

Just let it sit in primary for a few weeks. The Mr. malty yeast piching calculator is a handy tool to have.

 

[jsweet]

I wouldn't worry much. You did under pitch but I think as long as you are patient with it the beer should finish out fine. I under pitched pretty much every beer I made the first 10 batches or so and they all finished pretty close to FG if not dead on.

Just let it sit in primary for a few weeks. The Mr. malty yeast piching calculator is a handy tool to have.

Thanks. I was planning on 6-8 weeks in primary anyway, even before I discovered Mr. Malty's and realized I had done a stoopid. So that is no problem.

I'm planning on taking a SG sample (and tasting it!) once a week in order to keep a close eye on it. Too often?

 

[JLW]

I have gotten to the point to where I only check at transfer. If you were planning on a 6-8 week primary maybe check at week 4 to see how it is doing and then week 6 or 8 when you think it's done. The problem with opening up to test is each time you introduce the risk of contamination.

You definately want to taste it's a great way to learn the differnt stages and taste.

 

[JLW]

I have gotten to the point to where I only check at transfer. If you were planning on a 6-8 week primary maybe check at week 4 to see how it is doing and then week 6 or 8 when you think it's done. The problem with opening up to test is each time you introduce the risk of contamination.

You definately want to taste it's a great way to learn the differnt stages and taste.

 

[TTB-J]

Yeah, I'm interested to see your ingredients and what not, but it sounds like a re-pitch may be in your future!

 

[jsweet]

I have gotten to the point to where I only check at transfer. If you were planning on a 6-8 week primary maybe check at week 4 to see how it is doing and then week 6 or 8 when you think it's done. The problem with opening up to test is each time you introduce the risk of contamination.

You definately want to taste it's a great way to learn the differnt stages and taste.

Okay, you're probably right to dissuade me from such frequent sampling I may take a sample at 1 or 2 weeks just to see how things are going, but after that I will hold off and only do 4, 6, and 8.

Sometime way down the road I've thought about doing an experiment, do a small batch (in case it gets contaminated) of a relatively fast fermenting ale, and taking a hydrometer reading like every 12 hours or something to chart the SG. Might be cool to see. But that would just be idle curiosity; wouldn't help my brewing one bit. heh..

 

[LeeIII]

Not to beat you up, but not one, not two, but more like FIVE yeast packages would be needed without a starter. You underpitched by a huge magnitude!


What are the ingredients, and the mash temp? That will help us figure out how to proceed now.

Really? 5? I may be sounding stupid here, by why does the smack pack claim that it is enough for 5 gallons?

And, for more detail: here is what went into it.

12 lbs Pale Malt (2 row)
4 lbs Munich malt
1.3 lbs Flaked Wheat
.75 lb Special B
1 lb Caramunich
.5 lb Caravienne
1 lb Brown Sugar

Repitching some starter looks like what I will need to do. At this point the attenuation is only at around 60%. From what I am seeing it needs to be closer to 75%. Hopefully I can get it all figured out. Thank you everyone for your input. I will be taking it all into consideration.

 

[TTB-J]

Really? 5? I may be sounding stupid here, by why does the smack pack claim that it is enough for 5 gallons?

And, for more detail: here is what went into it.

12 lbs Pale Malt (2 row)
4 lbs Munich malt
1.3 lbs Flaked Wheat
.75 lb Special B
1 lb Caramunich
.5 lb Caravienne
1 lb Brown Sugar

Repitching some starter looks like what I will need to do. At this point the attenuation is only at around 60%. From what I am seeing it needs to be closer to 75%. Hopefully I can get it all figured out. Thank you everyone for your input. I will be taking it all into consideration.

Did you read this?

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_makingastarter.cfm

A smack pack is arguably enough to inoculate a 5 gallon batch of average wort ale, meaning <1.060 OG. But for a high gravity ale, a single smack pack isn't going to be enough. Check out the Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator:

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

It says that a 1.100 OG ale will need around 350 billion cells of yeast, a single smack pack has around 100 billion. So while Yooper may have been speaking a bit in hyperbole, 5 smack packs isn't that far off!

I would just find yourself a neutral yeast, make a starter that will match your current gravity (for 1.040, the rule of thumb is 10:1 ratio of milliliters of water to grams of DME) and pitch the slurry once it is ready. Should help you knock off at least a few more points and get yourself close to 75% attenuation. I've only re-pitched once though, so someone with more experience on this may have a different opinion! Good luck!

 

[JLW]

If you re-pitch please post your process and results. I had no luck when I repitched.

Good luck!

 

[janivar123]

you could pull a sample- add sugar and let sit a while to see if the yeast is active or not

 

[LeeIII]

Did you read this?

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_makingastarter.cfm

A smack pack is arguably enough to inoculate a 5 gallon batch of average wort ale, meaning <1.060 OG. But for a high gravity ale, a single smack pack isn't going to be enough. Check out the Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator:

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

It says that a 1.100 OG ale will need around 350 billion cells of yeast, a single smack pack has around 100 billion. So while Yooper may have been speaking a bit in hyperbole, 5 smack packs isn't that far off!

I would just find yourself a neutral yeast, make a starter that will match your current gravity (for 1.040, the rule of thumb is 10:1 ratio of milliliters of water to grams of DME) and pitch the slurry once it is ready. Should help you knock off at least a few more points and get yourself close to 75% attenuation. I've only re-pitched once though, so someone with more experience on this may have a different opinion! Good luck!

Thanks, that is very helpful. I will definitely try this.

 

[LeeIII]

If you re-pitch please post your process and results. I had no luck when I repitched.

Good luck!

I'll definitely let you all know the results. Yeasties should be arriving today, then I will be making the starter per suggestions and repitching.

 

[LeeIII]

The verdict, sort of:

On saturday, a new pack of trappist HG arrived. I broke out my 1000 ml flask, boiled up 1 quart of water with 1/2 cup of breiss Golden light DME and a smidge of yeast nutrient, and let sit until temperature was about 70 degrees.

I then pitched the Trappist yeast, which I had smacked about 2 hours beforehand, into the start flask.

Over the next 24 hours I shook up the contents each time I walked by.

Right before pitching I took a gravity measurement of the starter and it was right around 1.010.

I pitched into the carboy at this point. This was on Sunday. Today there is a fairly steady output of CO2 (I understand that this is not the sole indicator of fermentation, but since it is actually pushing CO2 I am making the assumption at this point that some sort of fermentation has resumed).

I will let it go a couple of weeks and then do a 3 day stretch of checking the gravity at that time.

Thanks again everyone one for all of your input during this slightly frustrating time

 

[LeeIII]

One week later and my gravity reading is down to 1.030 from 1.040.
Still fermenting...


Thanks everyone!

 

[TTB-J]

One week later and my gravity reading is down to 1.030 from 1.040.
Still fermenting...

Thanks everyone!

Nice! Good work.