Strange times

[Edcculus]

Also, even if people are buying organic for the sake of buying organic, isn't it a step forward? Isn't it good that hipsters are drinking craft beer, even if its for the wrong reasons?

I have a big problem with the "supermarket meat tastes just as good as grass fed, and is much cheaper" attitude. While its important to source your food from a reputable source, what is wrong with paying a little for good food? Go around and seek out great ingredients. Spend time in the kitchen preparing meals, connecting with the food, enjoying its many flavors. I think its a real shame that America has reduced food to a microwaveable highly processed burger that is prepared in less than a minute, handed to you in your car and consumed in such a thoughtless fashion on such a regular basis

 

[ndsgr]

Also, even if people are buying organic for the sake of buying organic, isn't it a step forward? Isn't it good that hipsters are drinking craft beer, even if its for the wrong reasons?

I have a big problem with the "supermarket meat tastes just as good as grass fed, and is much cheaper" attitude.

Nothing is wrong with it, if it makes you feel better about yourself. My informal, unscientific experiment at my house, for my guests was more than enough proof to me (and my wallet) that there is negligible difference. This "attitude" you speak of could just be experience. I have a serious problem with the "I eat organic, grass-fed, rainbow injected smug holier than thou" attitude that a lot of folks have. One more reason I'll never live in the SF Bay anymore, even if it is one of my favorite places. Not to mention the lack of any credible evidence of the horrible "toxins" in regular food. Ask a "natural" foodie why they eat what they do. The words "toxins" and "chemicals" will most likely enter the conversation. Unfortunately, they are usually unable to answer anything more specific than that. Once again though, if you feel better about yourself when you look in the mirror, then I guess it's worth it.

For clarification, I did NOT say my local supermarket. Their meat is horrible. When they advertise NY steaks for about $2 ea, you go buy it, and end up being disappointed to say the least. I have found Costco meats to be decent, although slightly more expensive than the local grocer.

 

[Pappers_]

also, even if people are buying organic for the sake of buying organic, isn't it a step forward? Isn't it good that hipsters are drinking craft beer, even if its for the wrong reasons?

I have a big problem with the "supermarket meat tastes just as good as grass fed, and is much cheaper" attitude. While its important to source your food from a reputable source, what is wrong with paying a little for good food? Go around and seek out great ingredients. Spend time in the kitchen preparing meals, connecting with the food, enjoying its many flavors. I think its a real shame that america has reduced food to a microwaveable highly processed burger that is prepared in less than a minute, handed to you in your car and consumed in such a thoughtless fashion on such a regular basis

+1

 

[Yooper]

Nothing is wrong with it, if it makes you feel better about yourself. My informal, unscientific experiment at my house, for my guests was more than enough proof to me (and my wallet) that there is negligible difference. This "attitude" you speak of could just be experience. I have a serious problem with the "I eat organic, grass-fed, rainbow injected smug holier than thou" attitude that a lot of folks have. One more reason I'll never live in the SF Bay anymore, even if it is one of my favorite places. Not to mention the lack of any credible evidence of the horrible "toxins" in regular food. Ask a "natural" foodie why they eat what they do. The words "toxins" and "chemicals" will most likely enter the conversation. Unfortunately, they are usually unable to answer anything more specific than that. Once again though, if you feel better about yourself when you look in the mirror, then I guess it's worth it.

For clarification, I did NOT say my local supermarket. Their meat is horrible. When they advertise NY steaks for about $2 ea, you go buy it, and end up being disappointed to say the least. I have found Costco meats to be decent, although slightly more expensive than the local grocer.

I think most natural foodies I know don't go into the "chemicals" and "toxins", but if you don't believe that is an issue with your food then you are naive. Industrialized farming has stripped nutrients out of our food, injected our meat with antibiotics, fed cows unnatural food for cows to eat in the name of "marbling", etc. You can eat whatever you'd like, of course, but please don't say because we eat real food that it only makes "you feel better about yourself in you look in the mirror".

One of the issues I have now with food is that we as Americans are pretty disconnected from the whole process of where our food comes from and what it IS. Many people don't want to think about that nicely packaged steak as a former living animal and the way it came to be on your plate. As a former farming nation, the US has really gotten away from awareness of food.

One of the things I will not do is eat "food" that isn't really food. After reading Michael Pollan's books, I recognize that some things served to US are actually, "food like substances".

We grow as much as our own food as we can, buy a local lamb (neighbor's), hunt, and fish. We spend about $45 a week at the grocery store for things we can't grow ourselves. I will not buy a "food like substance" out of a package, except for some whole grain pasta. Nothing with the words "A-roni", "helper", etc will come into my house. We decided to not eat anything that my grandparents wouldn't recognize as food.

Now, just because I choose a different diet than you doesn't mean that you have the right to call me "smug" or insult me. I don't do that to you. The worst thing I said to you is that you are naive. Hardly a big stinging insult.

 

[the_bird]

One of the issues I have now with food is that we as Americans are pretty disconnected from the whole process of where our food comes from and what it IS. Many people don't want to think about that nicely packaged steak as a former living animal and the way it came to be on your plate. As a former farming nation, the US has really gotten away from awareness of food.

I'm shocked that we even HAVE this conversation, given how connected we all are to our beer. I mean, we know every single part of the beermaking process. We literally touch every ingredient that goes into our favorite beverage. Many of us grow our own hops and read threads about our comrades who malt their own barley. We drink in pubs where the beer is made on-premises. 80% - 85% of the commercial beer I purchase has been produced within maybe a 500 mile radius.

How's that different than shopping in stores that go out of their way to bring in local produce, or going to restaurants where the head chef sources his meat from local farmers? Isn't that what WE, as homebrewers, are all about?

 

[Edcculus]

+1 to Pollan's books Yooper! I've read both Omnivore's Dilemma and In Defense of Food, which have really made me step back and evaluate how I eat. I try not to be smug about it. I don't talk, like some of the more crazy people about unknown "toxins". I do believe that food becomes incrementally better for you the shorter the food chain is. Its also better for the environment.

I've also become increasingly aware of even most restaurant food. I actually realized this about a year and a half ago. The company I worked for was a label printer. We printed a lot of industrial food labels for Stouffer's. Did you know that all of the entrees at Olive Garden are frozen dinners made by Stouffer's? That got me thinking. Sure enough, most of the food at the major restaurant chains are just frozen dinners. I can stay at home and make a MUCH better meal, with much better ingredients than that!!! There are some awesome local restaurants which we visit when money allows. They are rather expensive, but the food is just out of this world.

Call me a snob. Maybe I am. In reality I'm 24 and make $18/hr plus benefits and live in an apartment with my (soon to be - next week!) wife. Not the highest paying job in the world, so I skimp on some things. I opted to only have internet and no cable. That saves me $50 a month. We've decided great food is that important to us, and are willing to spend a little more on it. If that means eating a little less, so be it. Neither of us were near being overweight, but since we started eating how we do, we have both lost weight anyways..

Just like any movement, there are the annoying people who take it too far. Don't let the hipsters deter you from enjoying great food.

I'm shocked that we even HAVE this conversation,.......How's that different than shopping in stores that go out of their way to bring in local produce, or going to restaurants where the head chef sources his meat from local farmers? Isn't that what WE, as homebrewers, are all about?

I think that really shows the disconnect in American culture to their food as of late. Since beer is a pleasure, we can really focus on it, and geek out about it. To most Americans now, eating is just something we have to do so we don't die. Isn't it ironic that there are people bashing BMC, then turning around and eating at McDonalds?

 

[the_bird]

Call me a snob. Maybe I am. In reality I'm 24 and make $18/hr plus benefits and live in an apartment with my (soon to be - next week!) wife. Not the highest paying job in the world, so I skimp on some things. I opted to only have internet and no cable. That saves me $50 a month. We've decided great food is that important to us, and are willing to spend a little more on it. If that means eating a little less, so be it. Neither of us were near being overweight, but since we started eating how we do, we have both lost weight anyways..

Hey, congrats!

 

[ndsgr]

Meh, provide a reputable source that says nutrients are stripped out, or organic has more of them. Freshness is the key word. Until then, it's another religion. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but faith is not the same as fact. So, yes, whatever makes you like yourself more. Just don't down others as naive or dumb because they don't buy it.

 

[Yooper]

Meh, provide a reputable source that says nutrients are stripped out, or organic has more of them. Freshness is the key word. Until then, it's another religion. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but faith is not the same as fact. So, yes, whatever makes you like yourself more. Just don't down others as naive or dumb because they don't buy it.

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of studies that describe this. Many books, and internet references. There are lots of places to read about nitrogen depletion of soil, etc. This isn't the place for it, but the information is available to anyone who wants to find it. A good place to start are the already mentioned Micheal Pollan books.

No one thinks anyone is dumb who doesn't believe the same way, but don't write it off just because you haven't researched it. Just like some people might think brewing beer is "dumb" because you can buy beer at the store, some people think eating better food is "dumb".

 

[beergears]

Thread slippage, yet related...

What the best material to make raised beds?

A friend suggested Trek or similar.

 

[the_bird]

Maybe we need to have a "gardening" sub-forum for next spring. Might motivate me to grow something other than six-foot-high weeds next summer. Yooper, maybe we'll need Bob to join after all (isn't he your resident expert on gardening matters?)

 

[Pappers_]

Wait a minute, a thread about organics, sustainable agriculture, et. al. and all I've posted is "+1" - what the hell?!?! Usually I'm the one being called a deluded snob

 

[BeerWars]

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of studies that describe this. Many books, and internet references. There are lots of places to read about nitrogen depletion of soil, etc.

?

Nitrogen is stripped by many plants. Why do you think corn farmers rotate with soybeans? Besides it is really easy to add nitrogen to the soil via a myriad of methods.

Besides I haven't heard of anyone that is anemic or deficient in nutrients because they grocery shop at Wal-Mart's produce section and NEVER eat "organic local grown produce." Show me evidence of this.

This is a case of "perception is reality" and some good ol fashioned Placebo Effect. And there are people that are raking in the cash - including your local farmers that were on the verge of bankruptcy before this latest marketing gimmick.

I don't care what you think you know (or what the guy at the market tells you) - unless you picked the fruit from the plant that you grew from seed - you have NO IDEA what you are buying.

 

[Yooper]

?


I don't care what you think you know (or what the guy at the market tells you) - unless you picked the fruit from the plant that you grew from seed - you have NO IDEA what you are buying.

I'm not going to get into an argument over this.

But I'll agree with you on this last point. That's why I grow my own fruits and veggies and harvest my own game.

 

[Airborneguy]

Restaurant chains are the worst places to eat in the world. You are better off exclusively eating out of the frozen aisle in the supermarket than eating at a chain. I rarely, if ever go to chains anymore, only local restaurants. We do occasionally go to Cheeseburger in Paradise, but very, very rarely.

 

[BeerWars]

I'm not going to get into an argument over this.

But I'll agree with you on this last point. That's why I grow my own fruits and veggies and harvest my own game.

Not asking for an argument. I just want to know where all the nutritionally deficient people in the US are. Show me the people with similar diets (commercial vs. local farming / grocery store vs. Whole Foods) that have significant differences in their blood panels that can be attributed to the source of the food.

Is there going to be a scurvy outbreak because people are buying oranges from the grocery store vs a local producer?

 

[RDWHAHB]

?

Nitrogen is stripped by many plants. Why do you think corn farmers rotate with soybeans? Besides it is really easy to add nitrogen to the soil via a myriad of methods.

Thats funny, crop rotation is an ORGANIC farming method. Petroleum based fertilizer is helping cause nutition depletion issues.

 

[RogerMcAllen]

Meh, provide a reputable source that says nutrients are stripped out, or organic has more of them. Freshness is the key word. Until then, it's another religion. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but faith is not the same as fact. So, yes, whatever makes you like yourself more. Just don't down others as naive or dumb because they don't buy it.

This.

While organic farming may be better for the soil, there is no evidence that organic produce has better nutritional value than commercially farmed produce.
Peer reviewed article discussing this

Also, the freshness point is a good one. Frozen vegetables often have better nutritional value than fresh vegetables. Why? Because the vitamins start breaking down as soon as the vegetable is picked, and frozen vegetables literally go from the field to the freezer in a matter of hours. Before freezing they are blanched to inactivate the enzymes responsible for the vitamin breakdown. You aren't buying anything at any grocery store that was picked hours ago. Even farmers market veggies are usually more than a few hours old before you get a chance to eat them.
Food science textbook discussing the positive effects of storing produce at lower temperatures, page 66 if the link gets wonky

 

[jpc]

The related aspect of this...

Seeing so many more restaurants these days that are focused on locally-sourced product, seasonal product. Such a positive development. Environmental issues (better to ship a turnip twenty miles instead of three thousand). Fresher. Places we go like that... the chefs seem very respectful of the food they're preparing.

Couple dining experiences we've had in the Finger Lakes recently. Red Newt Bistro; expensive, but everything was outstanding. Seasonal, fresh. Not over-complicated. Another place we went a few years back, Madderlake Cafe (since shut down, owners went back to NoCal, it seems). Same deal; great, local food, you know the chef is talking directly to the farmers and that he's getting the farmer's absolute best product.

We also went out to a steak/seafood joint with the in-laws, that felt like I was going back in time twenty years. Nothing fresh. Everything was bland. Nothing seemed to be local, not just no local fish but nothing really "Finger-Lakey" about the whole menu.

And, it sucked. And - was just as goddamn expensive!

If it is a trend, I love that trend, I hope it continues forever. To hell with bland food! To hell with "seafood" that tastes no different than if you were eating out in Des Moines.

Should I assume that in northern areas, where there is a limited growing season, that such places close up shop in the winter time? How do they get local produce in winter?

 

[beergears]

Oddly, on another forum I hang out, there is a thread also titled "Stange Times"

It is about remembering Jimi Hendrix' passing, 40 years ago.

 

[jpc]

Thats funny, crop rotation is an ORGANIC farming method. Petroleum based fertilizer is helping cause nutition depletion issues.

Crop rotation is a farming method. It has nothing to do with organic or non-organic. While organic farmers might do this, ALL farmers have been doing this since Jethro Tull invented the seed drill.

 

[BeerWars]

Thats funny, crop rotation is an ORGANIC farming method. Petroleum based fertilizer is helping cause nutition depletion issues.

Just because a product says organic does not mean it was grown in nutrient rich soil. Plants deplete soil - that is the nature of a plant; that is how they grow by sucking nutrients out of the ground. To feed the world (including the crowd at Whole Foods) we need to use fertilizers.

Organic produce for the most part (there are a few examples of "permaculture" but we both know that is the exception to the rule) is grown in the exact manner as chemical fertilizer produce; the difference being the treatments that are sprayed are "organic." "Organic" DOES NOT mean safer / more environmentally friendly / less toxic.

Remember, cyanide is organic.

 

[ndsgr]

A good place to start are the already mentioned Micheal Pollan books.

Ok, a professor of JOURNALISM is a reputable source in biochemistry, chemistry and/or medicine now? I guess I should start selling books! I would probably consult your doctor before you start following his diet advice. They have actual research and science behind their claims... not creative writing.

I have no problem with folks eating organic. Whatever floats your boat. I choose to spend money on other things. I suppose all religions call for a tithe though.

 

[RDWHAHB]

Just because a product says organic does not mean it was grown in nutrient rich soil. Plants deplete soil - that is the nature of a plant; that is how they grow by sucking nutrients out of the ground. To feed the world (including the crowd at Whole Foods) we need to use fertilizers.

Organic produce for the most part (there are a few examples of "permaculture" but we both know that is the exception to the rule) is grown in the exact manner as chemical fertilizer produce; the difference being the treatments that are sprayed are "organic." "Organic" DOES NOT mean safer / more environmentally friendly / less toxic.

Remember, cyanide is organic.

I think that a lot of words were put in my mouth. I was merely pointing out that the crop rotation you mention is an organic principle. Maybe it wasn't directed at me. I will leave organic vs non-organic health/nutrients statements to others; I know little about that. I do know that regardless of how they are grown, or where they are bought, America ought to eat more veggies. Ecologically, I think we need to do a lot better. Nitrogen fertilizer is so cheap it gets overused. The Gulf's dead zone is crazy. Shipping "organic" produce half around the globe doesn't help that though.

I shop at whole foods, but do no seek out (or avoid) organic. If it looks delicious I buy it. I do not think that Doritos look delicious, so I don't buy them. We'll go back to Safeway to buy some cheap staples now and again and I am amazed at the processed foods. More than half the store is sodium and sugar packaged up in a crinkly plastic.

One thing I do get snobby about is my cheese. Some of those WF cheeses are amazing. Keep that Kraft business away from me.

Switching gears, I am amazed at the disconnect between food and its origins. Many people have commented to me that I will get deseases from eating hunted elk. Um, OK??? Some folks seem to think that an elk walking through the woods is more diseased than a cow standing on top of a 12' pile of sh*t in a feedlot. Seriously? I guess a USDA stamp fixes everything. That blows my mind.

I need to look into Pollan's books.

 

[Pappers_]

Ok, a professor of JOURNALISM is a reputable source in biochemistry, chemistry and/or medicine now? I guess I should start selling books! I would probably consult your doctor before you start following his diet advice. They have actual research and science behind their claims... not creative writing.

I have no problem with folks eating organic. Whatever floats your boat. I choose to spend money on other things. I suppose all religions call for a tithe though.

Yes, journalists write reputable, authoritative books on a variety of subjects. Including science.

And, really, chill friend. You are getting caught up in an argument and your tone is getting carried away. You've stated your opinion, it's enough, in my opinion.

 

[ndsgr]

Yes, journalists write reputable, authoritative books on a variety of subjects. Including science.

And, really, chill friend. You are getting caught up in an argument and your tone is getting carried away. You've stated your opinion, it's enough, in my opinion.

No worries dude, no hate or emotions from this side. I am not great at writing, so perhaps I communicated my tone incorrectly. I thought I was actually being friendly. I do take offense to you saying I am done since I disagree with your side though.

In the case of a journalist writing an authoritative book in science, well, I guess there is no arguing with that. All I can say is that you can expect my astro-physics book coming out next year... no I don't have a degree in astro-physics.

 

[RogerMcAllen]

No worries dude, no hate or emotions from this side. I am not great at writing, so perhaps I communicated my tone incorrectly. I thought I was actually being friendly. I do take offense to you saying I am done since I disagree with your side though.

In the case of a journalist writing an authoritative book in science, well, I guess there is no arguing with that. All I can say is that you can expect my astro-physics book coming out next year... no I don't have a degree in astro-physics.

I think you are tying to say real science comes from peer reviewed literature, pop science comes from the NY Times best sellers list.

Scientists publish in journals, Dr. Phil writes books and is on Oprah.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I'll reference my dad again. He always brings us steaks from his local "custom meat" store where he lives. All their meat is grass fed, organic, local (to him) and is massaged with rainbows and lives with unicorns. I can't tell the difference. In fact, Costco meat tasted the same or better and is about 1/3 the price. We even did a blind taste test at an spontaneous BBQ we had. None of the guests could tell.

He simply talks about the "hormones" and antibiotics, but all his "research" ends up with a "nutritionist" (read: internet degree) spewing their religion all over. His best argument is always something about girls going into puberty faster. But the same phenomenon is happening in the UK and they don't use those "toxins".

If I am going to pay 3x what I would otherwise, I need something better than "toxins" in the argument.

I agree for the most part, but with all due respect,you don't have daughters...

I have just the opposite experience with our local beef. We have been buying from a local guy for the last few years. I can tell right away the difference with grocery store meat. I used to always marinate my steaks there is no need with the meat we get now.

My experience too.

Now that we have hijacked to talk about yuppie meat, I figure I should chime in about now. I buy sides of bison. BEST MEAT AROUND. Have to cook it medium rare and carefully not to overdo it, but in tacos, fajitas, a porterhouse, lasagna, chili, etc, you just cannot beat it. Lower in fat and cholesterol than boneless skinless chicken breast, higher in omega fats and iron than any of the major commercial meats. It is the perfect meat, IMO.

Got a side of bison (225 pounds) for $3 a pound butchered, packaged, and flash frozen.

Your taco meat is medium rare?

Randar do you ground your own Bison or is part of that butchering grounding? Also how many cuft of a freezer does that 225 lbs take up?

Do you ground? Not without a time machine.

Your dad is really drinking the hippie Kool-Aid. Keep him away from the China Study.

The reason that girls go into puberty sooner has nothing to do with hormones in food; is because they are FATTER and exercise less than ever before. Both are key factors in the onset of puberty in females.

Has he ever see a Olympic gymnast? Many of them do not enter puberty until adulthood due to the factors of low body fat and physical activity.

Extreme physical activity will forestall the the onset of puberty.
The opposite is not true. FAT does not speed up puberty. Growth hormones are used in europe, and are the apparent reason for early menstruation.

 

[Pappers_]

I think you are tying to say real science comes from peer reviewed literature, pop science comes from the NY Times best sellers list.

Scientists publish in journals, Dr. Phil writes books and is on Oprah.

There is an awful lot of room between scientific journals and Dr. Phil. That is really shoddy thinking. Ever read Brian Greene? This thread is worse than the debate forum.

 

[BeerWars]

Extreme physical activity will forestall the the onset of puberty.
The opposite is not true. FAT does not speed up puberty. Growth hormones are used in europe, and are the apparent reason for early menstruation.

Really?

Diet (amount of excess calories) is the single most influential factor in determining the onset of puberty in females.

There is a percentage of fat that is required to enter puberty in females. If more girls have more fat in a population (which also strongly indicates a lack of extreme physical activity) - there are a greater number of girls that have the required fat stores to enter puberty. The age they enter puberty decreases because when the body is doing its self "check" they have the necessary amount of fat to start puberty so it starts the process.

Correlation does NOT imply causation.

 

[RogerMcAllen]

There is an awful lot of room between scientific journals and Dr. Phil. That is really shoddy thinking. Ever read Brian Greene? This thread is worse than the debate forum.

Brian Greene the physicist with over 85 peer reviewed journal articles in the same field, yes.

Micheal Pollan and some of the author/journalist/activists with 0 peer reviewed journal articles I could find, no.

 

[ndsgr]

I agree for the most part, but with all due respect,you don't have daughters...

Actually I have 1 and 1 on the way...

I think you are tying to say real science comes from peer reviewed literature, pop science comes from the NY Times best sellers list.

Scientists publish in journals, Dr. Phil writes books and is on Oprah.

HEY! Dr. Phil had wrote a weight loss book... with his picture on it!!! Nothing says credible scientific source like that! By the way, you just crushed my hopes of not actually having to finish the reference footnotes on my next paper. After this I was going to just write in "Google", "Wikipedia", and "Micheal Pollan". It's about secondary electron emission from conductive surfaces, but I am sure the reviewers or the publication won't mind.

 

[Pappers_]

Brian Greene the physicist with over 85 peer reviewed journal articles in the same field, yes.

Micheal Pollan and some of the author/journalist/activists with 0 peer reviewed journal articles I could find, no.

Yes, Brian Greene is both competent and a popular author - that is precisely the point. Many popular authors and journalists are - check out Jared Diamond and Donald McNeil for two other top notch science authors/journalists that I appreciate. Diamond both writes popular science books and teaches in geography. McNeill writes for the NY Times on many science topics.

The earlier snarky comment that the work of popular authors or journalists can't be reputable or authoritative is wrong.

 

[Edcculus]

I guess I'm going to trash all of my Basic Brewing Radio podcasts. That James Spencer just can't be trusted!

 

[ndsgr]

I guess I'm going to trash all of my Basic Brewing Radio podcasts. That James Spencer just can't be trusted!

I guess you missed the point. You are taking medical advice from someone who isn't a medical professional. Not to mention, he had a book to sell you.

Just remember, when you get the email, there isn't a prince in Nigeria that wants to give you his money.

 

[Airborneguy]

Just remember, when you get the email, there isn't a prince in Nigeria that wants to give you his money.

You're going a little far here with this comparison.

Ignoring wacko writers of course, when an investigative journalist/writer researches a book, they turn to professionals, scientists and peer reviewed journals for their sources. Pick up any work of non-fiction and you will find a very extensive list of sources. In fact, a book such as The Omnivores Dilemma (I have not read this book) may actually be a better source of information because it certainly was based on more than one research source.

 

[Edcculus]

Man, I really didn't want to get roped into this argument, but nobody here is taking medical advice from people like Pollan. At least I'm not. Maybe the science isn't the most accurate. I'm not quoting that stuff. In the end, what is wrong with eating local, avoiding highly processed foods and eating products from farm or pasteur raised livestock (meat, eggs, cheese, milk etc).

I know people focus on the fact that Pollan advocates organic foods, but they fail to realize that he demonizes the Industrial Organic agriculture at the same time. I don't think he ever advocates buying an apple that was grown organically in China versus an apple that may or may not be organic in your Supermarket that is from the US just for the sake of buying organic. What I really take away from his writing is how much processed foods are being marketed to us that just aren't good for you. Just because Frito Lays are fried in the right kind of oil, they have an American Heart Association logo on the bag. Potato chips good for your heart...since when?

 

[Pappers_]

I guess you missed the point. You are taking medical advice from someone who isn't a medical professional. Not to mention, he had a book to sell you.

Just remember, when you get the email, there isn't a prince in Nigeria that wants to give you his money.

I read articles about medical science from non-doctors all the time - the Tuesday science section of the New York Times is full of great, authoritative articles written by journalists and other writers. I also read Scientific America, which has articles written by both scientists and science journalists alike.

And as I mentioned before, outside of the debate forum, in my opinion, the snarky attitude is not appropriate. Your last sentence is uncalled for on this forum, in my opinion.

 

[blizzard]

I got sucked in and had to add my two cents.

First - Is it really so bad to eat food that hasn't been treated with hormones, antibiotics, and pesticides? If you don't want to pay for it, fine, but the point is not to fit into the hipster/yuppy crowd or that it is better for you. Rather, it is better for the environment. As one example, stormwater runoff from farms and CAFOs can be a major contributor of pesticides, nitrates, BOD, fecal coliform, etc. to surface waters. A few seconds of google searching will provide a slew of peer-reviewed articles published in respected journals to elaborate that point. The point of buying responsibly grown (local, organic, or otherwise) is not to feel smug - it is to support a grower that is practicing sustainability. As stated above, I'm surprised that point is lost on so many here, who give support to their chosen breweries because of how they craft their product. As the saying goes, money talks.

Second - I find it amusing that there are so many people jumping forward to say: "People don't care about what they eat, except for me." It's an interesting slice.

 

[ndsgr]

"The environment" argument is debunked simply because organic farming is LESS sustainable than regular farming. If there were only organic farms, there wouldn't be enough food for the population. Using more land = more "harm" to the environment. Also, to assume that organic farming uses ZERO pesticides is wrong. Organic farming utilizes 50 year old pesticides in much larger numbers than the synthetic pesticides used in regular farming. Fertilizer-wise, cow crap is a great organic fertilizer. Not so good for the "clean water" argument though or environment. Odds are if you buy into "organic saves the planet" then you also buy into the fact that cows are contributing to "climate change" or whatever they call it now. Also, "google" is NOT a source. People keep saying they have all these sources but have yet to produce a single REPUTABLE one. Instead, we were presented with a journalist who wanted to sell a book and "millions on the intardnet".

I would also like to apologize for coming off as "snarky". I truly don't mean to be disrespectful. My profession involves a lot of reading research and gathering information. It also means that I am extremely critical of everything I read because you would be amazed by the amount of BS floating around out there. Natural foodies and organic adovocates rarely provide anything other than faith. When they do produce anything that could pass as research, it usually takes about 10 minutes to find the terminal flaws in the research or study. Hint: find out who funded the research first, it is usually the first red flag.

Here is an article by a Ph.D in Plant Pathology. This would constitute a "credible" source on plants. If he was writing about neurosurgery, this would NOT be a credible author on the subject. Just for clarification.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14079717/The-Seven-Most-Dangerous-Myths-About-Organic

I have not reviewed his studies, so cannot comment. I would take more stock in this than a journalist though simply because of his credentials. This is an example of a non-journal credible source. I used a non-journal, because, face it, journals are boring. I know, I have been published in a couple and I don't even want to read them. I sometimes have to though.