Stop Putting Airlocks on Your Starters!

[AnOldUR]

Those puppies (the ones I use in the lab anyway) are designed for a one way air flow.

Not that the rest of your points are not correct, but not so sure about this. It's not like there's a check valve built in. As far as I know, the only reason that they have a direction arrow is so that you don't flip it in subsequent uses and put the contaminated side in. Anyone know for sure?

 

[BioBeing]

I think there is a prefilter on one side, but not the other. I might be wrong. But you are correct that they are not like an airlock (truly one way).

 

[Rhymenoceros]

So air locks can build some pressure, but what about blow off tubes? I s'pose I could put foil over the 2nd tube on the carboy cap though. Im convinced though, on my 6 gallon carboy I will now use foil instead. As for a starter, if I don't have a stir plate, should I just shake it, or do that soda bottle method?

 

[llazy_llama]

PseudoChef has been trying to sell us on tinfoil for a while.

Well, +1 for foil. Consider me signed up after I just shoved a stupid rubber stopper so far into my carboy I don't know how the heck I'm getting it out. I'm sold on tinfoil.

 

[flyangler18]

PseudoChef has been trying to sell us on tinfoil for a while.

It bears repeating now and then, especially with starters. Slapping an airlock on a starter is counterproductive.

 

[blindtiger]

I've never really considered the foil method until now. Consider me sold, especially since Ive been having trouble with my oxygenation.

 

[PseudoChef]

Yeah, I can be a crass jerk sometimes, but everyone's had that moment where you're staring at the airlock, or the grommet falls in, or there's suckback, or you're counting bubbles to measure fermentation, etc. As Charlie P. has reiterated ad naseum, I'm just wanting people to relax more and not worry.

The other thing is that Chris White has a big role in lots of people's beer. He does this stuff day in/day out to bring people the best yeast possible. If they're testing their flavor profiles and publishing their yeast statistics on fermentations done with lower pressure, then that's what I want to do to have similar results.

 

[OLB]

PseudoChef has been trying to sell us on tinfoil for a while.

Well, +1 for foil. Consider me signed up after I just shoved a stupid rubber stopper so far into my carboy I don't know how the heck I'm getting it out. I'm sold on tinfoil.

Check out this thread to get your rubber stopper, it worked for me.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Weird that just last night I made a second starter for a double-brew weekend and since I don't usually make two starters at once I had to improvise and used foil on the second one...first time ever that I didn't use an airlock on a starter.

Help with this apparent paradox though:
It has been mentioned that unless you are using a stir plate that there isn't much exchange of air/CO2. And if there is no exchange of air/CO2 then this doesn't really do anything for us.
But if there is an exchange of air/CO2 then there MUST be chance of infection shouldn't there? The ole 'you can't have it both ways'. Lotsa stuff is just 'airborne' whether it's bacteria/spores/etc. If you are pulling in unfiltered, untreated air then it seems you are pulling in contaminants (bacteria don't need to 'crawl' in...they float in like a hot air balloon, hitch a ride on a dust particle, etc.). I have a dog and I'm sure he stirs up some dirty, dog-hair contaminated air.

What they do in a lab and what we do in our homes are very, very different things. For one thing, most labs use 100% make-up air (i.e. 0% recirculated) whereas most homes are 0% make-up. Most labs don't have pets or kids running around. Etc. So imo regarding the 'they use foil in labs' arguement...that hat don't hold water imo.

EDIT: Maybe it's because we have Cleanrooms where I work and we have airborne particulate monitors and I've seen the monitors go berserk from all the dust/dirt in the air that we can't see. When we test a small room for particulate...you can't go in there and walk around...it would fail everytime because of all the dust you are stirring up (and it's not close...just watch the readout on the monitor when a person walks by...spike).

 

[springer]

By keeping the yeast on the stirplate, you're delaying fermentation. When the yeast switch from an aerobic to anaerobic phase, then fermentation starts.

I didn't know that by keeping it in motion it wouldn't switch to anaerobic.

I know a stirplate mixes the air and Co2 very well, just put some water in, get a 1L vortex and blow some smoke in the flask.

Not to be wiseass but wouldn't blowing smoke into the flask mix the air? Is it that the smoke now show's its swirling like the liquid? But What I am saying is without some other force the CO2 will sit on top and spin but not mix with the outside air .

In my house with force hot air, wood stove and 2 dogs I think the likely hood of contamination would be very high without something on top. I just use growlers and place the cap on it without twisting it on.

 

[nealf]

Well, +1 for foil. Consider me signed up after I just shoved a stupid rubber stopper so far into my carboy I don't know how the heck I'm getting it out. I'm sold on tinfoil.

I've used aluminum foil for about a month now... I'll never go back!!!

 

[Tonedef131]

I didn't know that by keeping it in motion it wouldn't switch to anaerobic.

It's not keeping them in motion that does it, it's the constant exposure to oxygen. When yeast have oxygen available they use that and the maltose to create water, CO2, and more yeast cells...obviously this is the reproductive stage. But once the oxygen is used up (or they have created enough cells) they will switch to creating alcohol and CO2. Keeping them in motion just allows them to have easy access to the sugars and nutrients they need to work.

 

[flyangler18]

I didn't know that by keeping it in motion it wouldn't switch to anaerobic

It's not simply keep them in suspension that does it, it's the presence of oxygen. If you are continuously agitating, as on a stirplate, with a separation medium that allows for gaseous transfer, the yeast are in a reproductive phase. Once oxygen is no longer absent (and this is me trying to synthesize what I've been reading), the yeast switch to an anaerobic phase, consuming the sugars present in the wort. If you don't have fermentation, then you're not getting a CO2 blanket.

Of course, there is a practical limit. 36 hours on the stirplate and it's done.

 

[PseudoChef]

Here's a link that has been mentioned before, but is worth repeating: MB Raines, Ph.D. - Guide to Yeast Culturing for Homebrewers - Maltose Falcons Home Brewing Society (Los Angeles Homebrewing)

 

[Medo]

Ahoy hoy,
Interesting thread indeed. I like the concept but would try a different implementation. If I were to try this, I would still use an airlock, but, would leave it empty. The airlocks I have are the type that you can remove the cover, and lift the floaty cap off of the tube going into the cork. And the cover is vented. Ive noticed the floaty, due to its rounded top, will not plug the tube when it is sitting all the way down on it, like you would have with no liquid in it. Surely this would allow unrestricted breathing of the primary. And I would think it would be even more complicated for a bug that cant figure out how to circumvent tin foil, to works it way through an empty airlock.
Besides, think of all the aluminum trees that would be saved if we used less foil
Just a thought....
I bid you all a great day!

 

[delboy]

Just like to add that i've been using the tin foil method since i started but then again i work with bugs etc and i understood the purpose of a starter and gas exchange and the effectiveness of a simple cover on a flask.
Mentioned it a couple of times on a couple of threads but it never seemed to register.
Anyway i digress, +1 on the fact that labs use foil on flasks and they don't get infections and nether will you

 

[dontman]

I've always used a starsan moistened paper towel as my "airlock" on my starters.

The primers I have read on starters all mention not to use an airlock so I never considered using one.

For my bigger starters I use a 96 oz apple juice pitcher and encourage air exchange by squeezing and releasing it several times prior to shaking it.

 

[BierMuncher]

Just in time for my 1.075 dubbel I'm doing tonight.

But I'm still going to rig a blowoff on the 6.5 carboy. But maybe I'll drape the hose into an empty bucket.

 

[user 22118]

I got tired of not knowing my fermentation temperature so I started doing this. Put the thermo into the hole in the bung and it rests easily and lets gas escape.

The pics below show before, from side and from top. I just pitched this IPA at 1.075 in the pics.

 

[dontman]

My probe would have to be a foot long to reach that far enough into the wort to be accurate. Mine would only reach the krausen at best.

I wish I had a longer probe.

 

[truckmann]

Good info here. I think I will keep using my airlock and just forget to put the liquid in it. Only because it's easier to do on my fermentation vessel than foil since I'm not using a carboy.

I have been using foil on my starters since I started doing starters.

 

[Jolly McStanson]

Stupid question. How come if you wrap cooked meat in foil and keep it on the counter, it still goes bad / bacteria?

 

[truckmann]

Unless your in a very sterile environment I'm sure the steak ends up getting some wild bacteria on the surface after it's cooked before it's put in the foil. Also the foil may likely have some on it as well. Given a little time it grows and spoils the meat.

The difference with the beer during fermentation you have an active process that will fight off almost any trace amounts of bacteria or wild yeast that may and do get into your wort or starter for that matter. All the brewer really needs to be concerned with is keeping a large contamination of bacteria or wild yeast from taking hold before the good yeast takes hold.

 

[mosquitocontrol]

What if you have kitties that may jump on the counter while the starter is there? Let alone all their dust flying around? Airlock to be safe? or am I just listening to my noobie "knowledge" I assumeed to be true

 

[PseudoChef]

This is not a "to be safe" endeavor. If you are making a starter, it is to replicate yeast. The best way to replicated the cells is to provide oxygen and put it on a stir plate. It you put an airlock on it, then you are hindering the former. Put it somewhere your cat can't get to it.

 

[conpewter]

Co2 is not that much heavier than air. If you have a bucket that blocks any drafts or movement of the air it will form a layer, if you have a moving liquid it is going to continuously mix with the air above it and not form a layer.

 

[RonRock]

Do you sanitize the foil? Foil on both Starter and Primary? I'd like to see a vote, just out of curiosity how the majority goes.

I'm leaning toward foil on both after reading this post.

 

[PseudoChef]

Yes, I sanitize the foil.

 

[flyangler18]

NOT sanitizing the foil is just beggin' for infection.

The foil is just another barrier from dust-ridin' bugs, same as a carboy cap or rubber stopper fitted with an airlock.

 

[RonRock]

I'm surprised in that response. When I was learning about doing Starters I read that Foil is considered sanitized as is. Sanitizing not necessary.

Glad I asked.

 

[enderwig]

You know, if everyone switches to the foil on the primary method, there will be a whole slew of new threads titled: "I haven't seen any activity in my foil since yesterday, is fermentation over?"
And another thing, what will noobs have to stare at on their first batch, watching foil do nothing at all, is quite boring

/sarcasm

 

[dontman]

Maybe they won't worry at all anymore because they won't expect to see bubbles.

Oh no! If there are no more noobie "I'm Worried" posts then activity on this site will dry up to next to nothing.

Fly could have single-handedly brought down HBT by starting this thread!

Or am I worrying needlessly. I guess we'll still have the drunken ramblings section.

 

[flyangler18]

I'm surprised in that response. When I was learning about doing Starters I read that Foil is considered sanitized as is. Sanitizing not necessary.

Glad I asked.

Well, think about it, you're pulling a piece of foil off a roll in your kitchen. You touch it with your bare hands, maybe scratching your nose along the way. You've got the overhead fan going, blowing bits of skin cells and dust laden with wild yeast and bacteria all over the place. A quick spray of StarSan and the problem is solved.

 

[fratermus]

You know, if everyone switches to the foil on the primary method...

Honest question for those that advocate foil on starters and foil on primary: why would foil allow oxygen exchange in a starter when you want oxygen, and not allow oxygen exhange in a carboy when you do not want oxygen exhange? Are we thinking that the increased volume of C02 production during fermentation makes the difference?




[thinking out loud follows]

I am agnostic about the foil v. airlock issue.

I'll be more convinced when I see experiments that show that foil actually allows significant gas exchange, and the metrics that show how much pressure an airlock provides and to what degree that pressure affects yeast function. I want to see numbers and predictable, repeatable results.

I go back and forth using foil and airlocks on top of stirplated starters and I have noticed no pattern in the results.

BN: I sterilize my foil in the pressure cooker on the flasks, and I bought a glass airlock so I could can that too. So the foil v. airlock decision for me so far has been a product of whether or not I remember to put the glass airlock in the canner with the other gear. It's fragile so I put it away safely and do not always remember to get it back out.

 

[llazy_llama]

Check out this thread to get your rubber stopper, it worked for me.

You sir, are awesome. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[RonRock]

Well, think about it, you're pulling a piece of foil off a roll in your kitchen. You touch it with your bare hands, maybe scratching your nose along the way. You've got the overhead fan going, blowing bits of skin cells and dust laden with wild yeast and bacteria all over the place. A quick spray of StarSan and the problem is solved.

Thank You, I have thought about it. That is why I asked. As I said, in my studying up on doing starters I DID read that foil was sanitized (well enough) for our purpose's in homebrewing. I did not make that up. But also have my doubts.

I spent way to much time trying to find the reference yesterday and was unable to locate it. But none the less that is what I read. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet I guess.

Thanks

 

[flyangler18]

Honest question for those that advocate foil on starters and foil on primary: why would foil allow oxygen exchange in a starter when you want oxygen, and not allow oxygen exhange in a carboy when you do not want oxygen exhange? Are we thinking that the increased volume of C02 production during fermentation makes the difference?

The constant agitation via stirplate is what really encourages the oxygen exchange, in the same way that an aquarium bubbler does the same. It's a question of surface area. Further, positive pressure created during fermentation eliminates any risk, in my mind, of oxidation.

 

[llazy_llama]

Just heard PseudoChef asking the White Labs guys about foil on TBN's Podcast. You're practically famous now!

 

[remilard]

Thank You, I have thought about it. That is why I asked. As I said, in my studying up on doing starters I DID read that foil was sanitized (well enough) for our purpose's in homebrewing. I did not make that up. But also have my doubts.

I spent way to much time trying to find the reference yesterday and was unable to locate it. But none the less that is what I read. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet I guess.

Thanks

I've read that too and I do think the foil on the roll is probably sanitary but nothing that has been exposed in your kitchen (where most of us keep foil) can be considered sanitary. The kitchen is a microbiological nightmare, particularly lactobacillus which is beer spoiling.

I cringe every time I see a photo of someone bottling from an open bucket in the kitchen, usually accompanied by a question of whether to sanitize the bottle caps or rinse the bottles with water.

Missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Superman3278]

So far this has been intersting to say the least. Keep the info exchange going, and hopefully we can get past preferance to a "new standard" way of home brewing. I am always for the ability to achieve maximum efficiancy "repeatable" from begining to end. It is just the culinary regement speaking but it is worth it if the results are predictable. Good work getting the nurons a work out, every now and then we need to check ourselves from the bottom of a pint glass and up.