Steeping grains

[Scandixbrewer]

I've got an extract kit I thought I should experiment with by steeping some grains, so I've been reading up on how to do it but it has left me somewhat confused. I know that pH and water treatment come further down the line for me, but I've read some sources that say not to steep in too much water because it will (or might) cause harshness/astringency.

Just for fun I've been toying with Brewfather for a bit recently so I thought I would check what kind of pH it predicts my coming steeping attempt. I wasn't going to steep much grains, I was thinking about 100 gram of crystal 150 EBC and 50 gram of chocolate malt 500 EBC. But, however much, or little, water I use, Brewfather predicts a pH of less than 4.5, which I gather is much lower than wanted. I have entered the correct water information for my tap water into Brewfather, so I think it's using the correct data.

How should I handle this? Should I not bother and just go ahead steeping or is there something I can easily do to correct it? Or am I doing something wrong?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've been reading up on how to do it but it has left me somewhat confused.

What were you reading? Do you have a copy of How to Brew, 4e?

 

[Scandixbrewer]

Not sure if it was that one, but some general google results... like this one Extract Beer Brewing Tip - Don't Steep Grains with Too Much Water | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith™

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

From the article:

I ran a series of pH estimates based on some “worst case” alkaline drinking water and typical steeped grains such as crystal malt.

FWIW, many people who brew with DME/LME mineral free (RO, distilled) or low mineral water.

 

[Scandixbrewer]

Yes, but even with distilled water Brewfather predicts an pH of 4.37. Maybe it's just how it is, or maybe I have entered something wrong. I'll probably go ahead and steep and won't think more about it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Do you have a pH meter?

 

[Scandixbrewer]

No haven't invested in that yet, I haven't been giving water chemistry much thought at all until now really.

 

[RM-MN]

Astringency is caused by tannins extracted from the grain. To extract tannins in enough quantity to be noticeable requires two factors, high pH (over 6.0) and high temps (over 170F). Both factors have to be present so steeping in too much water so the grains can't keep the pH under 6.0 isn't a problem if the temperature is kept under 170F or if you keep the amount of water lower so the grains keep the pH under 6.0 you can use higher temperature than 170. There is no requirement for higher temps so just shoot for temps around 150-160. By practicing that you will be prepared for going to all grain if you choose to as that temperature range is needed for the mash where the starches in malted grain is converted to fermentable sugar by the enzyme activity.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

How should I handle this? Should I not bother and just go ahead steeping or is there something I can easily do to correct it? Or am I doing something wrong?

Ignore the software estimated pH value. It's not useful until you can confirm the estimate by using a pH meter.

Initially, just go ahead and steep as @RM-MN mentioned - this is a common approach for steeping. It's also common, with extract brewing, to use distilled or RO water - this helps prevent alkaline water related problems like those mentioned in the article in reply #4.

 

[RM-MN]

Ignore the software estimated pH value. It's not useful until you can confirm the estimate by using a pH meter.

Then when you have a pH meter (I wouldn't recommend that purchase yet) ignore the reading anyway. The pH doesn't stabilize until about 15 minutes into the steep at which time it is already too late to adjust. If you do use a pH meter, take your reading at the 15 minute time and make good notes. If you brew the same recipe again with the same water you can make adjustments prior to starting and then check how that worked out when you do the 15 minute pH reading. Then you can adjust again when you make that exact recipe again. Changing recipes means starting over as the grains in the recipe will change the pH.

 

[Scandixbrewer]

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I will just steep as planned for now and see what the outcome will be, if it's good then I know I don't have to bother much about it in the future.

 

[dwhite60]

Don't put too much thought into this. Just steep them. It'll be fine.

You'll make great beer.

I think in a way there is too much information available out there a lot of it being more opinion than fact. Compared to the info available now I was pretty much flying blind when I started doing this in 1989. I still made good beer per my friends at the time.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What's interesting about brewing with DME/LME is that "water chemistry" is frequently "built-in" to the brewing process (either in a quality kit or in books like How to Brew chapter 1).

Three parts to water: 1) initial quality, 2) setup for proper mash, 3) additional salts to season to taste.

Part 1 is covered by using distilled / RO (or other low mineral) water. This type of water also helps setup a proper steep (vs “worst case” alkaline drinking water when purposefully looking for tannins).

2) is covered as the mash has already been done.

3) is discussed in a couple of books (Brewing Engineering, How to Brew) as well as in some topics here at Homebrew Talk. Pro tip: "Extract will contain a certain level of minerality" (link) and each brand likely contains an different level.

As an example. You read about a person adding a little NaCl to an extract based recipe to make it better. Someone claims it didn't work for them. Neither says which brand of extract was used. At this point both can be correct - if they were using different brands of extract.

 

[Pappers_]

. . . but I've read some sources that say not to steep in too much water because it will (or might) cause harshness/astringency.

I've not heard/read that. Steeping in water that is too hot can definitely cause astringency/harshness/tannic mouthfeel. Standard wisdom is to keep it 150F to 160F.

 

[VikeMan]

but I've read some sources that say not to steep in too much water because it will (or might) cause harshness/astringency.

I've not heard/read that.

If the water has significant alkalinity, then the more water, the higher the pH of the steep. And high pH is a factor in tannin extraction.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I have heard/read of it. I have done full volume steeps with my specialty grains at 150F and haven't experienced any notable tannic/astringent flavors in any of my brews. I don't use tap water, I use Kroger Spring Water for all of my 5-5.5 gallon batches. YMMV

 

[RM-MN]

I've not heard/read that. Steeping in water that is too hot can definitely cause astringency/harshness/tannic mouthfeel. Standard wisdom is to keep it 150F to 160F.

If the water has significant alkalinity, then the more water, the higher the pH of the steep. And high pH is a factor in tannin extraction.

Both of you are correct but it takes both factors at the same time to extract a significant amount of tannins. Use cooler water and you avoid the tannin extraction regardless of the pH. Acidify the water to keep it below a pH of about 6.0 and you can boil the grains.

 

[VikeMan]

Both of you are correct but it takes both factors at the same time to extract a significant amount of tannins.

Of course, that would depend on what we mean by a significant amount. Every wort/beer contains tannins from malt. It's part of what makes beer taste and feel like beer. Higher steep/mash/sparge temps extract more than lower. And higher pH extracts more than lower. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the combined extraction curves for temp and pH would look much like a step function. i.e. there's not a "no tannin" zone that jumps to a "tannin bomb" zone.

O Tannenbaum...