Starting cell count for L plantarum starter?

[shanecb]

Hi everyone - I'll be doing my first L plantarum 299v starter (from GoodBelly capsules) either today or tomorrow.

I have been reading a lot about cell growth rates for lacto starters and the different ranges you can expect. I am planning to do a 500mL starter to kettle sour 5-6gal of wort for making a gose.

The only thing I am unsure of is how many approximate cells of lacto I should pitch into the starter to start with. Each GoodBelly capsule estimates 10billion cells of 299v (which I'm going to assume is accurate for the starter even though it's probably less by now). Does it matter much, e.g., if I start with 10billion cells versus 50billion cells (1 capsule versus 5 capsules)?

I'm also unsure if 500mL would get me to an appropriate pitching rate of lacto as cell counts, growth rates, appropriate pitching rates, etc. differ some depending on what source you are reading.

Basically, any good advice on using a starter to reach an appropriate pitching rate of lacto for 5-6gal of beer would be appreciated! I know the pitching rate is pretty forgiving overall, however.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you've read these resources you should be set.
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

500mL should be fine if you've properly made the starter (buffered with calcium carbonate).
1 opened capsule per starter is fine, or pitch 2 for good luck.
No hops before souring

 

[shanecb]

If you've read these resources you should be set.
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

500mL should be fine if you've properly made the starter (buffered with calcium carbonate).
1 opened capsule per starter is fine, or pitch 2 for good luck.
No hops before souring

Thanks for the reply! Yep, I used a chalk buffer and have the plantarum stable at 85F. I decided to err on the side of caution and used 3 capsules for the starter, to get a good head start

 

[shanecb]

Throwing this up there for anyone who finds this thread in the future when looking for an answer. Starting with the above 3 capsules into a 500mL lacto starter got me plenty of cells to work with. My kettle sour beer has dropped from 4.68 pH (pre-acidifying before pitching the lacto) to 3.60 in less than 12 hours. Really quick kettle souring method!

 

[Andre3000]

To add to the above as an FYI, I got the Digestive Care from Jamieson (Canadian, available at Shoppers) in which the active ingredient is L. Plantarum 299v, 10B CFUs per capsule. I put 5 of those into 2.5 gallons, no starter, and in under 24 hours at 90°F this thing was SOUR. I was blown away. Could probably get away with 3 or maybe even 2 capsules. I tried to get a measure on a pH strip even though they're pretty useless at this resolution though it appeared to be close to 3. I imagine it's at mid to low 3s for sure.

It'll be interesting to see how sour it is after it ferments out with 1056. I'll be honest I'm kind of nervous.

 

[Andre3000]

My kettle sour beer has dropped from 4.68 pH (pre-acidifying before pitching the lacto)

Did you pre-acidify with lactic acid? If so how much did you use and how big was your batch? I added 7.5 mL 88% lactic to 2.5 gallons. May have been too much... Gonna need a pH meter if I continue down the sours road for sure.

 

[newtobrew1981]

You can't introduce too much lactobacillus. So don't worry about it

 

[RPh_Guy]

....I added 7.5 mL 88% lactic to 2.5 gallons. May have been too much... Gonna need a pH meter if I continue down the sours road for sure.

It's probably fine.
Since there's not an accurate way to predict how much to add, I'd suggest you skip pre-acidification until you get a pH meter.

Bonus! A pH meter is also needed for adjusting water chemistry in all-grain brewing.

 

[newtobrew1981]

I soured my wort without pre acidifying just do a short boil. And be diligent with your cleaning

 

[shanecb]

Did you pre-acidify with lactic acid? If so how much did you use and how big was your batch? I added 7.5 mL 88% lactic to 2.5 gallons. May have been too much... Gonna need a pH meter if I continue down the sours road for sure.

Yep I did! A good starting point (depends entirely on your water chemistry of course) is 1mL of 88% lactic acid for every 0.1 you want to lower the pH of 5 gallons of wort. So I used 10mL of acid to drop pH of 5 gallons about 1.0 from ~5.6 (I don't remember exactly what I started at). Turned out to be a pretty good guesstimate in my case! Definitely worth investing in a pH meter if you think you'll continue with sours. I found it incredibly useful.

 

[Andre3000]

It's probably fine.
Since there's not an accurate way to predict how much to add, I'd suggest you skip pre-acidification until you get a pH meter.

Bonus! A pH meter is also needed for adjusting water chemistry in all-grain brewing.

I was trying to save my head retention, haphazardly.

Yes, I'm probably on my 20th all grain batch since I started in October. I have gotten away without it fairly well up until now. I've got a fair amount of bicarbonate in my water, and per Bru'n water it appears I have a pretty large window for most brews in terms of acid additions and how easy it is to land in an acceptable mash pH range.

 

[newtobrew1981]

How do you know where your landing without a ph meter

 

[Andre3000]

How do you know where your landing without a ph meter

Using the Bru'n water spreadsheet.

 

[newtobrew1981]

So its just an assumption then

 

[Andre3000]

So its just an assumption then

It's a calculation based on water chemistry, grain bill, mash volume, added brewing salts and acids, among other inputs.

It's not exact, but it's widely regarded as being fairly accurate.

Have you used it?

 

[millsbrew]

Perhaps my math is bad, but I read the following from SourBeerBlog lacto 2.0....

"When calculating the amount of Lactobacillus to pitch, about 10 million Lactobacillus cells per mL of wort are required to sour a beer within 24 to 48 hours depending on the species or strains being used."

So I have a 6.5gal batch (1 hour boil will get me to 5.25gal), that would be 24,605mL of wort. Now multiply that times 10mm cells gets me to 246.05Bil cells required. GoodBelly shots have 20Bil each, and a carton has 80Bil. Wouldn't this mean I'd need 10 shots (or 3 cartons) for a 6.5gal batch (pre-boil). How would your 3 capsules at 10Bil each get you anywhere close to the amount required? Even if you did a 3gal bathc, you'd need 120Bil or 12 capsules.

Asking because I just pitched a carton and 2 shots into my 6.5gal batch 6 hours ago and planned on leaving it alone for at least 2 days since I grossly underpitched per Sour Beer Blog.

 

[newtobrew1981]

It's a calculation based on water chemistry, grain bill, mash volume, added brewing salts and acids, among other inputs.

It's not exact, but it's widely regarded as being fairly accurate.

Have you used it?

Yes it's what I use. But I've also test my ph as well for good measure.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@millsbrew to whom are you talking? The OP used a starter to increase cell count.

@Andre3000 not checking mash pH is akin to not checking gravity. Sure, there are calculators for OG and FG but who knows how accurate that is unless you measure it yourself... Similarly you don't NEED to measure it, but it does provide potentially useful information.

 

[shanecb]

Perhaps my math is bad, but I read the following from SourBeerBlog lacto 2.0....

"When calculating the amount of Lactobacillus to pitch, about 10 million Lactobacillus cells per mL of wort are required to sour a beer within 24 to 48 hours depending on the species or strains being used."

So I have a 6.5gal batch (1 hour boil will get me to 5.25gal), that would be 24,605mL of wort. Now multiply that times 10mm cells gets me to 246.05Bil cells required. GoodBelly shots have 20Bil each, and a carton has 80Bil. Wouldn't this mean I'd need 10 shots (or 3 cartons) for a 6.5gal batch (pre-boil). How would your 3 capsules at 10Bil each get you anywhere close to the amount required? Even if you did a 3gal bathc, you'd need 120Bil or 12 capsules.

Asking because I just pitched a carton and 2 shots into my 6.5gal batch 6 hours ago and planned on leaving it alone for at least 2 days since I grossly underpitched per Sour Beer Blog.

I used that to make a starter, not directly into the wort. It's anyone's guess how many I actually pitched as I don't have a microscope for a cell count, but it soured to a pH of 3.35 in ~21 hours.

 

[Andre3000]

I just tasted a sample I pulled off the keg and damn is it sour, a bit almost bordering on puckering like lemon juice... Does the sourness subside with fermenting / cooling / carbing? I imagine it may get worse once the yeast consumes the sugar!

This may be the straw that broke the camel's back to get a pH meter after all .

 

[Andre3000]

Perhaps my math is bad, but I read the following from SourBeerBlog lacto 2.0....

"When calculating the amount of Lactobacillus to pitch, about 10 million Lactobacillus cells per mL of wort are required to sour a beer within 24 to 48 hours depending on the species or strains being used."

So I have a 6.5gal batch (1 hour boil will get me to 5.25gal), that would be 24,605mL of wort. Now multiply that times 10mm cells gets me to 246.05Bil cells required. GoodBelly shots have 20Bil each, and a carton has 80Bil. Wouldn't this mean I'd need 10 shots (or 3 cartons) for a 6.5gal batch (pre-boil). How would your 3 capsules at 10Bil each get you anywhere close to the amount required? Even if you did a 3gal bathc, you'd need 120Bil or 12 capsules.

Asking because I just pitched a carton and 2 shots into my 6.5gal batch 6 hours ago and planned on leaving it alone for at least 2 days since I grossly underpitched per Sour Beer Blog.

I'm completely new to the sour game but I used the guidelines from Milk the Funk:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Starters_and_Pitching_Rate :

"A good pitching rate for Lactobacillus is 100-125 billion cells per 5 gallons of wort, although pitching rates for Lactobacillus are more forgiving than they are for yeast."

Which works out to a lot less at 130-162B. Like I said mine soured so friggin' fast at the low end of that. Others can chime in...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Does the sourness subside with fermenting / cooling / carbing?

Sorry, it will become more sour.
Consider blending it with a similar but non-soured beer.
Since you're using brun water I figure you might have some calcium chloride on hand, consider adding about 30-50ppm chloride.
Also ... In Germany Berliner Weisse is served with a shot of syrup to tame the acidity. Matt Miller (sour beer blog) has a couple recipes on his "brewing a berliner" post.
Just some ideas

........
Regarding pitching rate
........
The dependent variable is simply how long it takes to sour. Could be 12 hours; could be 4 days; could be never.
Your actual pH target obviously makes a big difference.
Temperature makes a huge difference.
Species and strain make a huge difference.
Hopping rate makes a huge difference.
Wort factors and nutrients probably make a significant difference.
My suggestion is to try not to overthink pitching rate. Pitching rate plays only a moderate role and differences in these other independent variables are why sources offer different recommendations.
You can adjust any of the factors if it is souring too slow or too fast for your liking.

 

[millsbrew]

I may have gone overboard as well as it got down to 3.29 in about 44 hours. Last time I did just 2 good belly shots and it took almost 5 days to get to 3.5. Seems I’ll need to clear room in the kegerator sooner than anticipated.