Dry yeast with a starter?
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PCABrewing
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There is an additional video staring Brittney that discusses a lot of detail about the production of and use of dried yeast.
I found it interesting.
I found it interesting.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Posting for a friend
Back in #31/#32, you hint at some interest experiments. It will be interesting to see those ideas developed and crowd sourced in the Brewing Science forum.
BrewnWKopperKat
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30-is minutes long (at 1x). Easy to listen to at 1.5x. For those looking to upgrade their understanding of active dry yeast from the early 2010s (e.g. the book Yeast) to the early 2020s, this appears to be a good starting point.
Thanks!
brewbama
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I‘ve brewed exclusively with dry yeast for years. I have rehydrated, sprinkled on top, and I have pitching into the wort as the fermenter is filling. I’ve gone with and without Go-Ferm when I rehydrated and Fermax and WYeast nutrient as a co-pitch.
In all this, over the years I’ve found co-pitching with 2 tsp of Fermax as the fermenter fills seems to work the best.
‘Best’ to me is defined as 14 hrs lag +/- 2 hours as indicated by the first ‘blip’ from OG and/or temp on a Tilt hydrometer on a consistent basis with a robust active fermentation that finishes quickly and completely.
Just my .02.
In all this, over the years I’ve found co-pitching with 2 tsp of Fermax as the fermenter fills seems to work the best.
‘Best’ to me is defined as 14 hrs lag +/- 2 hours as indicated by the first ‘blip’ from OG and/or temp on a Tilt hydrometer on a consistent basis with a robust active fermentation that finishes quickly and completely.
Just my .02.
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If I buy say 3 pack of US-04 on Amazon I direct pitch first 2 packages. Third beer gets 1qt starter from the last package and second qt of starter goes to the yeast bank in the freezer. Collected yeast is mixed with water+glycerine as described in different thread on this forum.
Lager dry yeast always goes to 1qt starter first before pitching.
If I have a frozen yeast I would like to use I make 1qt starter for ales and 2qt starter for lagers.
What I think most people may not have forethought on this. They are looking at only THIS batch and not future batches (or Insurance)... I live in a small town and have no HB Shop within 80 miles and I often brew on the spur of the moment when time becomes available. I always use a starter for ALL yeast. There is a FACT that you do not need a starter for dry yeast but I always do it. The reason is about three years ago I was making a large beer and after 5 days of fermentation I realized that I had dead yeast (2) packets. I did not have time to drive 80 miles each way so it was dumped. Now, If I would have had so dry yeast on the stir plate I could see if the yeast was dead or not... Just my take.
I have been trying to learn more about the differences between dry yeast and liquid yeast production. That was one of the better ones on that topic. I believe that the continuous feeding of oxygen and food is common to both dry and liquid (interesting that they use molasses).
She then talked about a step where they "stress" the yeast to get it to produce Trehalose and the Trehalose was important to the long term storage of dry yeast. She also mentioned that the lack of Trehalose was a reason that some strains cannot be dried.
There was another video, I think from Fermentis, where they talked a bit about the drying and the "rotary vacuum filter".
I recall reading that high levels of Trehalose was one of the factors why Kveik strains have a long storage life and why they have reduced lag times.
The two highlighted sections are at odds with each other. My idea of "brew on the spur of the moment" means that at 6:30 AM I decide I have time to brew and at 7:00AM the strike water is starting to heat as I mill the grain. A starter needs some time to grow cells and even a vitality starter cannot show much activity in the 30 minutes between my decision to brew and the time the strike water is at temp. I always keep more than one packet of dry yeast in the refrigerator in case I need it...for this batch or the next. My LHBS is 90 miles away and since I live in northern Minnesota and brew in the winter, I don't make the trip unless I have to.
Not necessarily, we all have different situations. For me, spur of the moment is deciding on Friday evening that Sunday morning looks like a possible brewday. I'll start a SNS on Saturday afternoon to be at high krausen at pitch time on Sunday. Plenty of time for that, but a run to the LHBS ain't happening most Saturdays. The LHBS is very, extremely, local, but Saturday is family cleaning and chore day.
My experience only here. And to boot, I have only brewed the same beer twice, so I can not say that doing it one way or the other makes a difference.
I have dry pitched on top and rehydrated, and the time seems to be excessive. I once had a US-04 take almost 72hrs to show krausen, may have been fermenting but nothing significant.
I have done starters, both with dry and liquid, generally 24 hrs before, and I see Krausen in as little as 10 hours.
Now we all know that sanitation and contamination are bad things. Two sides of a coin here. The more you do to the yeast whether a starter or rehydrate can introduce contamination (happened to me last batch…), but to get a fermtation to start faster or multiply quicker and produce alcohol quicker leads to prevention of negative bacteria growth. Catch 22? Doing a starter helps this happen in my experience.
Having said that, one day after work I was having a ‘snack’ and I watched a local brewer of a decent sized brewey near me (Wicks has big windows from the dining room to the brew room to see) pour two 500g packs of dry yeast (looked something FERMENTIS from a far), straight into the fermenter. Floor to ceiling (apx 18ft) fermenters so I guess they needed that much. And I have to say that their beer is one of the better ones in my area. So take that for what’s it’s worth.
There are pros and cons to everything. What do you want to do money/time wise, how good is your sanitation, what kind of beer you want to make, what kind of yeast, how good is your palate to differentiate the difference in potential flavor.
Don’t worry have a home brew (with mildly off flavor that was generated from your indecisiveness on how to start your yeast). It’s still beer.
I have dry pitched on top and rehydrated, and the time seems to be excessive. I once had a US-04 take almost 72hrs to show krausen, may have been fermenting but nothing significant.
I have done starters, both with dry and liquid, generally 24 hrs before, and I see Krausen in as little as 10 hours.
Now we all know that sanitation and contamination are bad things. Two sides of a coin here. The more you do to the yeast whether a starter or rehydrate can introduce contamination (happened to me last batch…), but to get a fermtation to start faster or multiply quicker and produce alcohol quicker leads to prevention of negative bacteria growth. Catch 22? Doing a starter helps this happen in my experience.
Having said that, one day after work I was having a ‘snack’ and I watched a local brewer of a decent sized brewey near me (Wicks has big windows from the dining room to the brew room to see) pour two 500g packs of dry yeast (looked something FERMENTIS from a far), straight into the fermenter. Floor to ceiling (apx 18ft) fermenters so I guess they needed that much. And I have to say that their beer is one of the better ones in my area. So take that for what’s it’s worth.
There are pros and cons to everything. What do you want to do money/time wise, how good is your sanitation, what kind of beer you want to make, what kind of yeast, how good is your palate to differentiate the difference in potential flavor.
Don’t worry have a home brew (with mildly off flavor that was generated from your indecisiveness on how to start your yeast). It’s still beer.
FWIW, I started out pitching dry straight onto cooled wort in the fermenter, sometimes even a White Labs pack with no starter. Beer was good.
Then I wanted to start harvesting yeast, and scooping off the bottom of the fermenter worked ok, but not when I dry-hopped.
Now I make a starter before every batch. Not that I am worried about the quality of the beer, but because it is easier for me to harvest the yeast before I pitch. I just save about 6 oz of my starter and pitch the rest.
When I do big beers or wines, I use a baking technique of tempering the yeast into the solution (similar to rehydrating in water). I take a small amount of the high gravity liquid and mix in the yeast to make sure it starts up before I pitch the whole thing into the fermenter.
When balancing lazy and cheap vs simply drinkable and freakin' awesome, "a man's got to know his limitations."
Then I wanted to start harvesting yeast, and scooping off the bottom of the fermenter worked ok, but not when I dry-hopped.
Now I make a starter before every batch. Not that I am worried about the quality of the beer, but because it is easier for me to harvest the yeast before I pitch. I just save about 6 oz of my starter and pitch the rest.
When I do big beers or wines, I use a baking technique of tempering the yeast into the solution (similar to rehydrating in water). I take a small amount of the high gravity liquid and mix in the yeast to make sure it starts up before I pitch the whole thing into the fermenter.
When balancing lazy and cheap vs simply drinkable and freakin' awesome, "a man's got to know his limitations."
If I'm doing a big (to me) beer at over 1.065, and using fresh dry yeast, I will usually do a vitality starter; pull off some of the first runnings, cool it down to 70°, and let the yeast sit in there until ready for pitching. Sometimes I forget that step and rehydrate in distilled water. And sometimes I forget THAT step and just sprinkle the yeast on top. All methods produce beer. Some start up fermentation faster than others. Just depends on my mood and forgetfulness, and beer consumption during the brewday. Beer yeast has been around for many many many hundreds of years, and will be here after we are all gone. Hardy little beasts, they are.
All good, except the distilled water. That definitely kills a portion of the yeast due to osmotic pressure. I've literally seen that happen. Place a piece of potato in distilled water over night and look what happened to it next day. Have a piece in tap water next to it for comparison.
ncbrewer
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The latest from Fermentis is that distilled water is fine. The rules change really fast. See this link in Tips and Tricks: Tips And Tricks - English (calameo.com)
Go to How to Use, then 2. Water or Hopped Wort.
Although it's hard to keep up, I give Fermentis a lot of credit for their ongoing testing of pitching parameters.
@McMullan I have come to a conclusion, I think we are being sold short regarding pitching rates for dry yeast. Brewed this brown ale saturday night, pitched around 10.30 in the evening and a bit before the 12 hr mark I saw signs things were happening, but it was not until about 36h post pitch that it was really going full speed. Pitched 1 12g pack and gave the bucket a good shake, 20L in FV OG 1.042.
In the future I will probably rehydrate 2 dry packs for my 20L batches, for my smaller 15L batches I can probably get away with one. Most my brews are 1.040-50.
What do you think? I am starting to believe there might be something to what you say about many calculators and the common wisdom on pitch rates being a bit on the low side...
In the future I will probably rehydrate 2 dry packs for my 20L batches, for my smaller 15L batches I can probably get away with one. Most my brews are 1.040-50.
What do you think? I am starting to believe there might be something to what you say about many calculators and the common wisdom on pitch rates being a bit on the low side...
McMullan
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I think the pitching rates practiced by home brewers are more driven by commercial interests rather than promoting a good fermentation. What it really says is, 'there is enough yeast in this pack for us to make a profit out of mediocre fermentations'. Whenever I've pitched straight from a pack, wet or dry, there's usually a delay much longer than a genuine lag phase and it seems fermentation scrapes through unpredictably. I definitely recommend pitching more yeast. One problem with dry yeast is viability being as low as 60% or even less. So it's probably better to consider a 12g pack as 7g and use 2 packs. What I like to do is make a half batch of beer as a big starter to get plenty of yeast for a proper fermentation. There's no substitute for repitching enough fresh yeast. Yeast like this can't be bought, it can only be prepped at home. If you can manage to brew once a week for a few weeks and repitch batch to batch you'll notice a big improvement in fermentation.
2 rehydrated packs it is then for my next brew, gonna be a premium bitter where I will also try a hopstand for the first time.
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to brew that often, I have thought about starting to harvest yeast though, wash it and keep it frozen in a glycerol solution.
The I will likely have to make a starter from that though.
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to brew that often, I have thought about starting to harvest yeast though, wash it and keep it frozen in a glycerol solution.
The I will likely have to make a starter from that though.
Do you think I am able to get away with 1 pack for my 15L batches?
McMullan
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I used one pack in 12L and it seemed to work better. Obvious signs of fermentation after 36 hours, instead of 72+.
I could do a small 1 pack 3dl SNS type vitality starter for my 15L batches on the morning of the day I brew, since I have started brewing at weekend nights in order to have the kitchen child free for myself...
McMullan
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I'd just try pitching the dry yeast, rehydrated or not into the FV wort. A SNS vitality starter has no real benefit here. Dry yeast don't need oxygen. And the high cell density (1 pack in 3dl) risks programming the yeast cells not to divide. The cells communicate chemically with each other, to respond to their environmental conditions, including population density outstripping available resources. At best they're just going to get a little feed.
BrewnWKopperKat
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This is mostly a counter-ancedotal for future readers, but it may also lead to interesting data points.
FWIW, over the last five years, I've pitched a lot of yeast dry using a number of common strains (US-05, Nottingham, S-04). Across a range of SG (40 - 70) and temperature (63 - 67), I see obvious signs of fermentation within 24 hours.
Can you describe the situation(s) where you didn't see obvious signs of fermentation after 48 hours?
FWIW, over the last five years, I've pitched a lot of yeast dry using a number of common strains (US-05, Nottingham, S-04). Across a range of SG (40 - 70) and temperature (63 - 67), I see obvious signs of fermentation within 24 hours.
Same. With 1qt starter even in 4-6 hours for ales and 12 hours for lagers.
McMullan
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I don't use dry yeast generally, but I have been experimenting with dry lager yeast fermenting under pressure lately. Pitching at 12°C. Activity assessed by gravity dropping and pressure building up. Using higher pitching rates promotes a better fermentation. More viable cells/ml basically. That's my main observation so far and suggests 1 pack of dry yeast isn't quite enough for a standard (23L) batch of wort. With liquid yeast my lager fermentations are done after about 5 days, which is what I'd expect. I've got some dry Verdant IPA yeast to play with over Easter, but I don't expect much difference at ale temperature, tbh. I'll probably do a half batch, harvest and repitch into the same recipe, just to demonstrate the obvious.
McMullan
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4-6 hours is about the length of a genuine lag phase (switching on required suites of genes and translating proteins/enzymes to multiply and ferment) and what we should be observing when pitching enough healthy yeast cells.
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BrewnWKopperKat
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Good to know -- how you are using the dry lager yeast may be meaningfully different from how I am using dry ale yeast.
I'm looking forward to seeing the ancedotal report.
I brewed today. I did a starter with Windsor dry yeast 24hrs in advance (and the pack expired 5/21!) and I have activity in my blow off just after 3 hrs. Probably started 1/2-1 hrs ago by the look of it. I have never had a beer start that quickly, especially dry yeast. Starters work.
Update, it was humming 2-3 bubbles a second this morning. 4 hrs later has slowed to to 1 a second. Could it be winding down already? By 24hrs it may be mostly done.
Update, it was humming 2-3 bubbles a second this morning. 4 hrs later has slowed to to 1 a second. Could it be winding down already? By 24hrs it may be mostly done.
McMullan
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I'm just sprinkling on top of the wort. Rehydrating in water didn't seem to make any noticeable difference.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Windsor : I've used it a couple of times, sprinkling it on top of the wort. When measuring visual activity, it appeared to start and finish quicker than the strains I commonly use (US-05, S-04, Nottingham). I'm not convinced it gets to FG any faster, but I haven't brewed with it for a while (Windsor doesn't ferment maltotriose - so for me, it doesn't work well with many of the worts I want to ferment).
Northern_Brewer
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Since we're in the beginners forum here (cough!), just a note on expiry dates :
I think it's safe to say that best-before dates on yeast are solely for the convenience of retailers but they're either too short or too long for brewers. Yeast doesn't suddenly "die" on the expiry date, nor does it have 100% vitality on (expiry date)-1, it is a long decline from the moment it is packaged.
Dry yeast "goes off" at <10% per year if you don't do anything stupid with it so the half-life is measured in decades. I found some dry bread yeast at the back of a cupboard that had been at ambient temperature for 20 years and it still made bread, albeit with perhaps 40% of the activity of fresh.
Whereas there's a good argument that the best-before on 100bn-cell liquid yeast packs should be 3 months rather than 6, if they're to be used in the way that they are advertised, without a starter. But then retailers wouldn't stock them. However, those packs still have viable cells years after their expiry dates and they can be rescued if you baby them. I've revived a White Labs pack that was nearly 5 years old, and I've currently got a Wyeast pack starting in the airing cupboard that is nearly 4 years old. It's not ideal, but it's doable.
I think it's safe to say that best-before dates on yeast are solely for the convenience of retailers but they're either too short or too long for brewers. Yeast doesn't suddenly "die" on the expiry date, nor does it have 100% vitality on (expiry date)-1, it is a long decline from the moment it is packaged.
Dry yeast "goes off" at <10% per year if you don't do anything stupid with it so the half-life is measured in decades. I found some dry bread yeast at the back of a cupboard that had been at ambient temperature for 20 years and it still made bread, albeit with perhaps 40% of the activity of fresh.
Whereas there's a good argument that the best-before on 100bn-cell liquid yeast packs should be 3 months rather than 6, if they're to be used in the way that they are advertised, without a starter. But then retailers wouldn't stock them. However, those packs still have viable cells years after their expiry dates and they can be rescued if you baby them. I've revived a White Labs pack that was nearly 5 years old, and I've currently got a Wyeast pack starting in the airing cupboard that is nearly 4 years old. It's not ideal, but it's doable.
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I use "old" yeast all the time.
I also make overpitch starters all the time.
I definitely see a relation between age and how long for a starter to get going and finish nice and creamy, but when subsequently used in a batch, things begin reliably quickly.
I will typically only make starters with dry yeast when I want a huge pitch and don't want to buy more dry packs of yeast.
I also make overpitch starters all the time.
I definitely see a relation between age and how long for a starter to get going and finish nice and creamy, but when subsequently used in a batch, things begin reliably quickly.
I will typically only make starters with dry yeast when I want a huge pitch and don't want to buy more dry packs of yeast.
rtstrider
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Yeasts behave differently. From my experience the only dry yeast that has benefitted from a starter is Lallemand Koln. That yeast is absolutely dog slow when coming from a dried state. It can take up to 4 days to start showing signs of activity regardless of pitch rate. Now in this instance I tossed a dry pack into 1L 1.040 wort on the stir plate about 1 1/2 years ago. It took 4-5 days to begin dropping gravity. Once this was finished I stepped it up to 2L 1.040 for giggles and same...Was DOG slow. I figured what the hey and banked it up in the freezer via water/glycerin in a 15ml test tube. About 2 weeks ago I decided it was time to wake up that bugger and see what happens. The yeast was a bit slower than most on the multi stepped starter. By the time it got to the final step it acted like any other yeast from a smack pack. I cold crashed for 24 hours, decanted, poured the slurry into 60F wort, within 4 hours there was signs of fermentation and at 17 hours there was a full krausen. Yes this is a tad overkill for dried yeast but so is a recommendation of 3 packs for a normal OG batch (per Lallemands pitch rate calculator) with a lag time of 3-4 days (both from experience and Lallemand's own website).
Now with that said I've done the same with w34/70 with no difference in fermentation between dry pitching, rehydration, and starter. The only time a starter, or stepped starter, would be worth it with dry yeast is if you're banking it, the yeast is pretty expensive per pack where multiple packs are needed (looks at the lager strains), or the yeast has a known long lag time. These are just my own experiences so hopefully it helps!
Now with that said I've done the same with w34/70 with no difference in fermentation between dry pitching, rehydration, and starter. The only time a starter, or stepped starter, would be worth it with dry yeast is if you're banking it, the yeast is pretty expensive per pack where multiple packs are needed (looks at the lager strains), or the yeast has a known long lag time. These are just my own experiences so hopefully it helps!
rtstrider
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Per Lallemand
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/
- Lag phase can be longer compared to other ale strains, ranging from 24-36 hours
McMullan
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That's not a genuine lag phase, regardless what Lallemand's marketing claims. Most brewer's yeast don't respond well to being dried in commercially driven processes. Clearly 'Köln' is one of them, clinging on by its teeth.
rtstrider
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Mind schooling me on what you mean by not a genuine lag phase? I don't mean that in a negative tone at all. I'm genuinely curious
McMullan
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It's simply the time it takes to remodel the proteome to respond to the new environment. The time taken to express genes and translate proteins. It takes hours not days.
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