Starter for a Pilsner (lager) Question

[g-star]

So you're saying that nobody has ever made award-winning or commercial-quality beer after underpitching?

That is not prove-able, but highly unlikely. Years of collective experience and brew science have proven the benefits of a correct pitch rate time and again.

Look, under-pitching is generally bad brewing practice. End of story. If you're happy with the way your under-pitched beers are turning out, great. That doesn't mean it is the best possible practice, or that those beers can't be better.

 

[Brulosopher]

I'm brewing this beer on Sunday and was wondering what others thought about how I should approach the water issue. I've got pretty great water in my city, though I'm willing to manipulate it (I've got Gypsum, Epsom, Calcium Chloride, and Chalk). Here's my standard water:

Ca: 4.0
Mg: 0.9
Na: 10
SO4: 6.0
Cl: 2.0
HCO3: 27

Using an online calculator, that puts my residual alkalinity at 14... not the greatest for a Pilsner, right? According to the calculator, if I add 2 grams each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride to my mash, my RA will be -175. Is that okay? Since my sulfate is higher than my chloride naturally, which lends to a more bitter beer, I'm thinking I should add similar amounts of the 2 salts to keep the ratio the same.

Anyone's thoughts are very much appreciated!

 

[Brulosopher]

Alrighty...

 

[SpeedYellow]

Some gypsum and calcium chloride would help get your Ca to a more typical brewing range, but I wouldn't add it for RA reasons. An RA of 14 is fine... even 50-80 will do fine for this style IMHO.

You didn't post your resulting profile, but I'd think 0.1 tsp per gal, or about 1gram CaCl / 0.6 gram gypsum would be a safer starting point. Don't overdo it here, especially if you're just trying to lower the RA (which, again, you don't need to do).

 

[Brulosopher]

Some gypsum and calcium chloride would help get your Ca to a more typical brewing range, but I wouldn't add it for RA reasons. An RA of 14 is fine... even 50-80 will do fine for this style IMHO.

You didn't post your resulting profile, but I'd think 0.1 tsp per gal, or about 1gram CaCl / 0.6 gram gypsum would be a safer starting point. Don't overdo it here, especially if you're just trying to lower the RA (which, again, you don't need to do).

Right on, thanks! I'll leave the water alone this round.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Right on, thanks! I'll leave the water alone this round.

But keep in mind that your water has practically no Calcium. I've read that you need some calcium for a few reasons (mash, yeast, boil). I've never brewed with such soft water, but you should investigate.

I'd probably lean toward a little CaCl and Chalk myself (since chalk will help offset the ph shift of CaCl, plus chalk doesn't add SO4). Just enough to get Calcium around 50ppm, which doesn't take much.

Just my 2c. YMMV.

 

[Yooper]

I use 100% RO water for Bohemian pilsners, which is very typical for that type of beer. There is some calcium in malt, so even though 50 ppm of Ca is a recommended amount, you're fine without adding any CaCl2 or CaSO4 for a pilsner. And you most certainly do NOT want to add chalk. I'd leave the water alone.

 

[Brulosopher]

I use 100% RO water for Bohemian pilsners, which is very typical for that type of beer. There is some calcium in malt, so even though 50 ppm of Ca is a recommended amount, you're fine without adding any CaCl2 or CaSO4 for a pilsner. And you most certainly do NOT want to add chalk. I'd leave the water alone.

When I brew a new style, I usually like to leave the water alone just to see how things go, then I can play from there. I was just a little anxious given my low Ca, but I'll take your word that it should be fine. 24 more hours....

 

[Yooper]

When I brew a new style, I usually like to leave the water alone just to see how things go, then I can play from there. I was just a little anxious given my low Ca, but I'll take your word that it should be fine. 24 more hours....

You can trust me on this! I'm not really much of a water expert at all, but I've been working on perfecting Bohemian pilsner, and taking advice from AJ deLange on this and the pilsners have been perfect.

 

[makomachine]

You can trust me on this! I'm not really much of a water expert at all, but I've been working on perfecting Bohemian pilsner, and taking advice from AJ deLange on this and the pilsners have been perfect.

AJ's water primer is the difference between good beer and excellent beer in my experience. Listen to Yoop, she's spot on with her recommendation from my experience. I do insure I add some Wyeast nutrient for my pure RO water beers as well.

 

[Brulosopher]

You can trust me on this! I'm not really much of a water expert at all, but I've been working on perfecting Bohemian pilsner, and taking advice from AJ deLange on this and the pilsners have been perfect.

You're talking about leaving the water alone, eh? Great!!

 

[Brulosopher]

Changed it up... 100% Pilsner malt and moved the 10 min Mt. Hood addition to 20, with all the others. Here goes nothing!!

 

[Brulosopher]

Just finished brewing this baby- cooled it to about 80F and threw it in the ferment freezer at 48F. Plan to decant and pitch yeast tomorrow morning.

 

[Brulosopher]

Decanted about 4L and pitched with wort at 50F. Fingers crossed!

 

[Brulosopher]

11 hours after pitching, first check, and it's bubbling...

 

[OldWorld]

I had very good results with Safale S23 and I didn't even make a starter but my gravity was low. Good luck.

 

[SpaceJunk]

I know what the calculations say, but I'm perfectly happy with 2L starters. Yes, I'm a heretic, and you may call me ignorant and nuts, but 2L starters work fine for my lagers, typically around 1.050. I can't even fathom how anyone could suggest your beer will be crap because you used a 4.5L starter.

I am with you, it blows my mind someone would recommend a gallon starter for five gallons of beer decanted or not. I have brewed half a dozen black lagers with two liter starters and the fermenter started bubbling within twelve hours every time Course the only lager yeast I have used so far is WLP830 which might be a more vigorous strain but I am still only starting with that small vial.

 

[solavirtus]

There's more to a good fermentation than just starting to bubble quickly. I would argue that how a fermentation ends is just as important, and affected by the pitching rate. But if you're happy with the beers you get at your pitching rates, then cheers!

 

[Brulosopher]

There's more to a good fermentation than just starting to bubble quickly. I would argue that how a fermentation ends is just as important, and affected by the pitching rate. But if you're happy with the beers you get at your pitching rates, then cheers!

This is my first lager beer. I usually pitch 1-2L starters for my ales. I am ease with those beers, have been for 10 years. I won't lie about this one if it blows

 

[Chefencore]

I am with you, it blows my mind someone would recommend a gallon starter for five gallons of beer decanted or not. I have brewed half a dozen black lagers with two liter starters and the fermenter started bubbling within twelve hours every time Course the only lager yeast I have used so far is WLP830 which might be a more vigorous strain but I am still only starting with that small vial.

If you reads the earlier posts, you'll see that the size of the starter was based upon not just the beer that was being brewed, but the viability of the yeast as well. Since the yeast was 4 months past production, the larger stater was needed to get the right cell count (which is of the utmost importance to a successful fermentation - did my sarcasm show through?). The cell count could have been achieved with a smaller starter, though. A 2L starter fully fermented, chilled, decanted and restarted at 2L again could have also produced nearly the same results.

It's just how people brew. Some people don't ever use starters. Some people still use funnel to transfer cooled wort to fermenter. Some people still use ice baths to chill their wort. Is this for you? Maybe, maybe not. I lift 5+ gallons of near-boing water over my head each time I brew. Some people think that is absurd. That's just how I roll.

 

[Brulosopher]

So here's what happens from this point... your thoughts are much appreciated.

The beer is fermenting, slowly but surely. I leave town for a week next Sunday, so I am going to leave the beer at 50F until I return from the east coast. By the time I return, it will have been in primary for just over 2 weeks. As soon as I get home, I plan on raising the temp to 62F for a d-rest, then after 2 days or so, crash the beer to about 36F, keg, carb, and lager for a few weeks... while sampling, of course.

Decent plan?

 

[osagedr]

I'd d-rest it before you head out. You want to do it during active fermentation. Better to do it too early than too late.

 

[Darwin18]

I'd d-rest it before you head out. You want to do it during active fermentation. Better to do it too early than too late.

I don't necessarily think that this is the best advice. If you pitched the proper amount of yeast at fermentation temperature, and held your temperatures within the correct range, you don't necessarily need to do a D-rest. The two lagers I made last year (Bock and Vienna) both scored well in separate BJCP competitions and I didn't d-rest either of them. You're more likely to incur off-flavors by letting it ferment at warmer temperatures especially during active fermentation. The point of a D-rest is to help eliminate potential off-flavors; if you're fermenting it correctly (right # of yeast and right temperatures) then you don't need a D-Rest. Taste it to be sure though.

 

[Brulosopher]

I don't necessarily think that this is the best advice. If you pitched the proper amount of yeast at fermentation temperature, and held your temperatures within the correct range, you don't necessarily need to do a D-rest. The two lagers I made last year (Bock and Vienna) both scored well in separate BJCP competitions and I didn't d-rest either of them. You're more likely to incur off-flavors by letting it ferment at warmer temperatures especially during active fermentation. The point of a D-rest is to help eliminate potential off-flavors; if you're fermenting it correctly (right # of yeast and right temperatures) then you don't need a D-Rest. Taste it to be sure though.

Hmm... If you read this entire thread, you'd see there's some speculation as to whether I pitched enough or not. I've heard a d-rest isn't really necessary, just a safety precaution, of you will. Now I'm thinking I'll raise the temp next Friday/Saturday, then cold crash before leaving on Sunday.

 

[Darwin18]

Hmm... If you read this entire thread, you'd see there's some speculation as to whether I pitched enough or not. I've heard a d-rest isn't really necessary, just a safety precaution, of you will. Now I'm thinking I'll raise the temp next Friday/Saturday, then cold crash before leaving on Sunday.

That's why I said IF you pitched enough yeast and IF you held it in the correct temperature ranges.

 

[Brulosopher]

That's why I said IF you pitched enough yeast and IF you held it in the correct temperature ranges.

I think I did pitch enough yeast, and it's right at 50F Cheers!

 

[SpeedYellow]

There's more to a good fermentation than just starting to bubble quickly. I would argue that how a fermentation ends is just as important, and affected by the pitching rate. But if you're happy with the beers you get at your pitching rates, then cheers!

Then what exactly are the proper measures of a good lager fermentation and "healthy" yeast? Because I bet you could match them, or come close, even by "underpitching" by half.

 

[SpeedYellow]

[deleted double-post]

 

[SpeedYellow]

Hmm... If you read this entire thread, you'd see there's some speculation as to whether I pitched enough or not. I've heard a d-rest isn't really necessary, just a safety precaution, of you will. Now I'm thinking I'll raise the temp next Friday/Saturday, then cold crash before leaving on Sunday.

I assume you know there's a proper point to d-rest... so why don't you just take a hydrometer reading, and do it if fermentation has reached that point? It beats guessing.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But I'd prefer no d-rest versus doing it way too early. I haven't noticed a difference when I do a d-rest.

 

[SpaceJunk]

There's more to a good fermentation than just starting to bubble quickly. I would argue that how a fermentation ends is just as important, and affected by the pitching rate. But if you're happy with the beers you get at your pitching rates, then cheers!

I hear you and you are right, there are more aspects to a good fermentation like a healthy krausen for instance. So far though my Schwarzbiers have turned out crisp and clean with only a two liter starter. Brewing a pilsner where there is no place to hide for off flavors may be a different story though.

 

[Brulosopher]

I assume you know there's a proper point to d-rest... so why don't you just take a hydrometer reading, and do it if fermentation has reached that point? It beats guessing.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it. But I'd prefer no d-rest versus doing it way too early. I haven't noticed a difference when I do a d-rest.

I'll be outta town... meh.

 

[Brulosopher]

3 day into fermentation and no sulfur smell, which I expected to be very strong. I've read this could be an indicator that an adequate amount of yeast was indeed pitched. Anyone have anything to offer on this?

 

[Yooper]

3 day into fermentation and no sulfur smell, which I expected to be very strong. I've read this could be an indicator that an adequate amount of yeast was indeed pitched. Anyone have anything to offer on this?

The only time I've got a strong sulfur smell was when I had stressed yeast, although it's possible that some strains are notorious for producing sulfur smells and I just haven't used those strains.

A "clean" smelling fermentation is probably a much better indicator of yeast health than sulfur, so I think you've got a good thing!

 

[SpeedYellow]

I'll be outta town... meh.

Sorry if it was unclear. Take a hyrometer reading Fri/Sat. If it's ready for a d-rest, do it. If not, then don't. Much better than simply doing a d-rest based on the calendar. My suspicion is that you'll nail it, or even be a little late, for a d-rest.

3 day into fermentation and no sulfur smell, which I expected to be very strong. I've read this could be an indicator that an adequate amount of yeast was indeed pitched. Anyone have anything to offer on this?

Like Yooper said, that's a good thing! But it doesn't tell you much. Even if you dramatically underpitched (which you did not!), you still may not get a sulphur smell. I've mixed up and screwed up my lager procedures but never noticed suphur smells.

More importantly, how vigorous is the fermentation? How does it look? Nice head of foam?

As an example, I also brewed a lager Friday. 10 hours after pitching (50F), just 2 bubbles per minute out of the one-piece bubbler airlock. Another 4 hours later = full on fermentation, like 50 big bubbles per minute. Here on day 3, it slowed to around 22 bubbles/min but many are double-bubbles. About 3/4" of foam on top. Smells good. Overall, proceeding very well. Probably done by 6-9 days. And yet I only pitched 40% of the yeast cells that mrmalty says I "needed". lol.

On the other hand, if you're never seeing above 10 bubbles/minute, you're going to have a slow fermentation. Far from optimal yes, but I still wouldn't worry.

 

[osagedr]

I don't necessarily think that this is the best advice. If you pitched the proper amount of yeast at fermentation temperature, and held your temperatures within the correct range, you don't necessarily need to do a D-rest. The two lagers I made last year (Bock and Vienna) both scored well in separate BJCP competitions and I didn't d-rest either of them. You're more likely to incur off-flavors by letting it ferment at warmer temperatures especially during active fermentation. The point of a D-rest is to help eliminate potential off-flavors; if you're fermenting it correctly (right # of yeast and right temperatures) then you don't need a D-Rest. Taste it to be sure though.

(1) better to do one unnecessarily than to have yet another thread about a d-bomb, or "why is my lager stuck at 1.020?"

(2) no off flavours will result from a d-rest at as high as 1.025; maybe even higher in my experience

(3) most new lager brewers don't know what diacetyl tastes like so it can be difficult for them to even detect it

You are absolutely correct in observing that a d-rest is not always necessary. How experienced lager brewers approach this and how novice lager brewers approach it will not and should not be the same. But in my experience, a d-rest can't hurt anything and can save a lot of heartache.

 

[g-star]

As an example, I also brewed a lager Friday. 10 hours after pitching (50F), just 2 bubbles per minute out of the one-piece bubbler airlock. Another 4 hours later = full on fermentation, like 50 big bubbles per minute. Here on day 3, it slowed to around 22 bubbles/min but many are double-bubbles. About 3/4" of foam on top. Smells good. Overall, proceeding very well. Probably done by 6-9 days. And yet I only pitched 33% of the yeast cells that mrmalty says I "needed". lol.

On the other hand, if you're never seeing above 10 bubbles/minute, you're going to have a slow fermentation. Far from optimal yes, but I still wouldn't worry.

So you're judging the health of fermentation by the rate of your "bubbler". It all makes sense now.

 

[Brulosopher]

So you're judging the health of fermentation by the rate of your "bubbler". It all makes sense now.

Whew! I'm glad you mentioned this, as I'm getting about 30 bubbles per minute. Thankfully I've never judged my beers by the rate of bubbling... still hopeful it turns out great, despite my measly bubble rate and mere 4.5 liter starter

 

[SpeedYellow]

So you're judging the health of fermentation by the rate of your "bubbler". It all makes sense now.

Just like you and every homebrewer, I use the bubbler to help understand the rate of fermentation. And as we all know, it's one factor in yeast health. E.g. zero fermentation = unhappy yeast. You're even denying that? Wow, you do need to read more.

I could ask a 3rd time for the objective metrics on how to judge a "healthy" fermentation, but it's pretty clear that nobody knows. I guess slavish obedience to a yeast calculator is simpler.

 

[Brulosopher]

Just like you and every homebrewer, I use the bubbler to help understand the rate of fermentation. And as we all know, it's one factor in yeast health. E.g. zero fermentation = unhappy yeast. You're even denying that? Wow, you do need to read more.

I could ask a 3rd time for the objective metrics on how to judge a "healthy" fermentation, but it's pretty clear that nobody knows. I guess slavish obedience to a yeast calculator is simpler.

The most objective metric I've discovered, even more effective than the bubbler-check, is to dip my head into my fermentation freezer, getting my face as close to the fermenter as possible, then vigorously inhaling through my nose. If I feel like death has gripped me by the throat and my eyes start running like a river, I pretty much assume beer is being made :cross:

 

[g-star]

Just like you and every homebrewer, I use the bubbler to help understand the rate of fermentation. And as we all know, it's one factor in yeast health. E.g. zero fermentation = unhappy yeast. You're even denying that? Wow, you do need to read more.

What I'm saying is that under-pitching, then judging fermentation a success by the rate of bubbling is a naive approach. But you don't seemed to be swayed by well-established facts, so I'm done trying to educate you.

Best of luck with your beers.