Stand
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I am at day 7, and I am cold crashing right now. WLP530 in a trappist single.
Just for giggles I dumped yeast to see what I would collect.
Just for giggles I dumped yeast to see what I would collect.
Spike Conical- observations and best practices
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logdrum
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Hey Mongoose, what size/type racking hose are you using? Getting ready to drop the hammer on CF-10 & appreciate as much info as possible!
It's just a piece of vinyl tubing attached to a camlock and a QD. The tubing I think is 1/4" ID, connected to a swivel nut to connect to the QD.
It doesn't matter a whole lot what the ID is--it still has to go through the small hole on the QD anyway. Here's a pic that shows the connections. The whole thing is about 18" long.
Cam D: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/camd.htm
The barb to fit the Cam D: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hosebarb14mx14.htm
@HB2 HughBHomeBrew Sorry - this is a late response! Before my Penguin, I just used a small (18 can?) Igloo cooler- just let the two hoses with insulation run out, and gently closed the lid on it. I found that about 2 gallons of water, and two frozen 1-gallon jugs kept it fine- I lagered at 50 for a pilsner for like 3 weeks this way. I would swap bottles 3x a day- 8am, 4pm, 10pm. Roughly.
When I went to crash, I would add loose ice cubes to the water, and have to swap bottles an extra 1 or 2 times a day. Best temp I got was maybe 41, but it would not hold. I was able to get to about 43 or so easily though.
Stand
Well-Known Member
I was using that exact setup, and I'm switching out the camlock for a TC to flare because I didn't like the threads: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15flare.htm
Probably just being paranoid, but it's fewer pieces.
ZmannR2
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Will this work in a non pressurized transfer?
Why not? It's just a drain. All you need is to have gravity working for you, and have the keg's PRV open.
I will say this: it'll be a lot slower.
One of the reasons I bought my CF10 was so I could do things under pressure. I will almost always close up the fermenter with about 7 points of gravity remaining; that will carbonate the beer in the fermenter, at least to about 13 psi. When the beer is crashed (in the fermenter, I have the temp control kit), the pressure will drop to about 7psi. So it ends up carbed about 2/3 of the way there.
When I transfer to keg, I'll put CO2 on the pressure manifold of the CF10 and keep the pressure up as it transfers. Using the transfer jumper in the last post, it takes about, oh, maybe 5-7 minutes to fill that keg. That's as opposed to probably 20-30 minutes using just gravity, no pressure.
I used to gravity drain (rack?
) from my Bigmouth Bubbler to a keg. It took a long time, at least to me. I'd go do something else and come back in 15 minutes to check progress. With the CF10 and pressurized transfers, I don't spend much time away from the setup, unless I want to risk overfilling the keg and beer coming out of the spunding valve.
Isn't the biggest benefit to doing it this way (under pressure) is that it keeps oxygen out? I thought that was a main point of pressureable fermenting vessels like the cf5 or the new ss uni's.Why not? It's just a drain. All you need is to have gravity working for you, and have the keg's PRV open.
I will say this: it'll be a lot slower.
One of the reasons I bought my CF10 was so I could do things under pressure. I will almost always close up the fermenter with about 7 points of gravity remaining; that will carbonate the beer in the fermenter, at least to about 13 psi. When the beer is crashed (in the fermenter, I have the temp control kit), the pressure will drop to about 7psi. So it ends up carbed about 2/3 of the way there.
When I transfer to keg, I'll put CO2 on the pressure manifold of the CF10 and keep the pressure up as it transfers. Using the transfer jumper in the last post, it takes about, oh, maybe 5-7 minutes to fill that keg. That's as opposed to probably 20-30 minutes using just gravity, no pressure.
I used to gravity drain (rack?
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
I'm just not in the business of refilling my CO2 tank so much, plus it's kinda busy being attached to my manifold in my keezer.
I've never heard of someone sealing the CF up with a few points to go on your gravity reading. Ever get scared it's gonna go crazy high pressure on you??
I got a 20#tank to do this and i have filled, purged, etc. So many times now, and it is still going strong! I highly suggest it!!
I just moved a batch from my non-temp controlled fermenter into the spike. It had a few points left and i just purged a few pounds of c02 every day. Otherwise you could get a spunding valve.
No. That's why the fermenter has a PRV on it. And why I can't get it to go more than about 13 psi. The PRV releases at that point. I wish I could get it to 20psi, but the fermenter isn't rated for more than 15. I need to diddle with the PRV so it will be set at 15, not 13.
As far as CO2 goes....much of this depends on how much to refill CO2, how large a CO2 cylinder you have, space to put it, and so on.
My keezer is in my basement, and a 5# CO2 cylinder is enough to run that for a good long while. I have 5 faucets on it, plus a small keg for water for the glass rinser which is pushed by CO2. That cylinder has lasted about a year, but it's finally time for a refill.
In my garage, where I do brewing, fermentation, and so on, I have a second gas system, so I don't have the schlep the cylinder/regulator up and downstairs. It's a 10# CO2 cylinder attached to a 3-gauge regulator I picked up used. One line is used to carbonate beer in my large ferm chamber using a pass-through bulkhead shank in the side of the refrigerator.
The other splits to two lines for CO2. One is used to add pressure to my CF10, or to push star-san from keg to keg when I'm purging them.
The other line is used to push liquid through my hoses and the counterflow chiller.
****
I wouldn't buy any of this new. A friend gave me the 10# cylinder. It was out of certification, so between the pressure test to recertify and the refill, cost me $36. The regulator I paid something like $70 for.
If you are patient, fish on Craigslist and on HBT for good used items, it can be done in a fiscally-limited environment.
****
Now, you might argue this is overkill, and maybe it is. But I want something that works for me, not me work to make it all function. And yeah, there's an increased cost in CO2, though it's probably 25 cents per time I push out beer under pressure. Maybe 50 cents, I don't know, but it can't be a lot.
It's all simply how I want to run my system. It's taken me 3 years to get to this point where it's all functional for me in the way I want it.
Here are pics showing how I've set it up. Some of the way it's arranged is because I'm space-limited, so things are designed to fit in a small area.
The first pic is a wide angle of the whole thing--large ferm chamber on the left, the green thing (I bought it used that way, no comments on my aesthetic tastes, please.
)The second pic shows the gas setup, and you can see the line going into the refrigerator.
The third pic shows the gas lines. They're hung on magnetic paper towel holders that stick to the door of the small ferm chamber.
The fourth pic shows the inside of the large ferm chamber, with the CO2 line inside. I have it on a splitter so I can carb two kegs at a time. I have no room in my keezer so I have two more kegs on the gas, with picnic taps on them.
Once you have access to CO2, you might find you have all kinds of uses for it.
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Blazinlow86
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I also seal mine as mongoose described at the end of fermentation typically after adding dryhops. I use a stand up fridge/freezer so getting down to 32f is easy so I can also fully carbonate prior to racking to kegs with the carb stone quickly. Having a dedicated co2 tank for the fermentor makes things easier. Cheers
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I do the spunding valve also with good results. Once my tilt reads about 90% done with fermentation I throw on the spunding valve.
I’m looking into using the site glass and butterfly valve for throwing in hops after fermentation.
I’m looking into using the site glass and butterfly valve for throwing in hops after fermentation.
Stand
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I like my spunding valve, and I use it with about .005SG left. It gets me very close to a fully carbonated beer from the start, and I feel like it somewhat makes up for all the CO2 I waste purging the kegs and pressurizing the vessel to move it into my kegs. I just leave it on through cold-crash, so I avoid suckback as well.
I've also heard rumors that it makes your beer taste better because the CO2 isn't scrubbing so many volatiles, but that sounds like bro-science to me. Maybe it works with hoppier beers than I tend to make.
That's what the PRV is there to prevent. Or you could invest in an adjustable spunding valve and set pressure exactly where you want it to end up.
The amount of CO2 that is captured through spunding is negligible compared to the amount of CO2 that still escapes the vessel in the course of fermentation either way, so I totally agree that any effect on beer taste is just wishful thinking.
Do you find that you have any issues transferring beer once it is carbonated? I have experimented with it, but found that there is so much in the lines and the keg that it wasn't worth it to carb in the unitank.
None. The key is that the beer, in the fermenter, is below 40 degrees and it's carbed to about 7.5psi. I put a spunding valve on the keg set to higher than 7.5, but lower than the pressure I'm pushing into the fermenter. That keeps the foam down in the keg, much like how a counterpressure bottle filler works.
I don't follow what you mean by "there is so much in the lines and the keg." What's in the lines and keg? Foam?
You have to do this with some sort of spunding valve to keep pressure up in the keg.
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
Ya I know about the valve I thought he was saying he just straight seals it up without the valve
I guess a connection for my spunding valve to go on my keg is the next piece of equipment then!
Lord I hope not, that would be suicidal!
So you did mean foam then. I couldn't figure out either what you had too much of in the keg. My first thought was "beer" but that can't be...
The keys to a successful foamless pressure transfer are:
-low temperature, it's advisable to also pre-cool the empty keg if possible
-lines as short as possible
-pressure slightly higher than equilibrium pressure at all times
-never be in a hurry, the slower the beer flows the less upset and prone to foaming it will be
HB2 HughBHomeBrew
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Right now I have my 20# C02 tank inside my fridge. Can you tell me how you did/what you used for the gas lines going through the fridge?
(Speaking of 20# tank - a bonus I found was same price to refill, about $22, as it is for a 5# tank.)
I transfer carbonated beer from my unitank into my 3 gal kegs without a spunding valve.
I crash the beer to 33F or so, put 12 PSI in the conical, and the same 12 PSI on the keg, connect racking arm of the conical to the "OUT" post of the keg, and then bleed pressure off the keg via the PRV to control the flow rate into the keg. I look at the condensation line moving up the keg to judge flow rate.
I've done three 10 gal batches this way, works great.
I crash the beer to 33F or so, put 12 PSI in the conical, and the same 12 PSI on the keg, connect racking arm of the conical to the "OUT" post of the keg, and then bleed pressure off the keg via the PRV to control the flow rate into the keg. I look at the condensation line moving up the keg to judge flow rate.
I've done three 10 gal batches this way, works great.
I use what's called a bulkhead shank. You install it through the refrigerator and then use swivel nuts to attach the gas lines to it.
http://www.chicompany.net/other-sha...3.html?zenid=602105b520bc9fc9789a436b9fa073cf
or
http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/843430.htm
I think they're the same sizes; on mine, I removed the rubber washers to give me a little more length.
The trick is you don't want to puncture a cooling line in the sidewall of the fridge. Some have the cooling coils on the bottom in the back, other refrigerators/freezers have them in the sidewalls. I drilled a 1/8" hole just through the skin on the fridge, then used a piece of coat hanger to probe inside that to ensure I wasn't going to hit a line. No lines.
These are such an elegant solution to this problem. On my fridge I have two bulkhead shanks: one to allow CO2 inside for force carbing, or maintaining CO2 pressure on kegs sitting inside.
I have a second one that I use to move gas from inside to outside the fridge. The fridge is also a ferm chamber when I use a Bigmouth Bubbler. I use a piece of rigid tubing through a drilled stopper on the BMB. I attach a piece of tubing to that, run it through the bulkhead shank, and outside the fridge. I terminate that in a blowoff jar so I can see what's going on in terms of fermentation without having to open the fridge to check.
I've also used these bulkhead shanks to move CO2 inside my keezer. The secondary regulators and the CO2 tank are outside the keezer; the shanks allow me to save the space that normally would be taken up by the regulators and tank.
Here are a few pics showing, again, how I use the bulkhead shanks. In the first pic, you can see the silicone tubing coming out of the fridge. It's not connected to anything here, but you can see the blowoff jars I'm using with the other ferm chamber I have.
An earlier version from inside the fridge, showing both the in and out lines:
Using bulkhead shanks on my keezer:
So it's kind of a poor-man's spunding valve!
I hate moving beer into kegs in the winter in my garage; hard to get a condensation line!
@mongoose33 do you have an opinion or preference on the CO2 tank inside or outside the fridge/keezer? Or is yours ourside just for space.
And i happen to like your fridge design. No matter what thread i am on- i know it's your setup at a glance!!
Thanks.
I prefer it outside both the freezer and keezer. More room inside without it. I can understand, though, that there may be brewers whose space limitations require it to be inside, but if I have my druthers, outside is where i want it.
The same goes for those secondary regulators. I used to have them inside my old keezer (RIP, old keezer). That made it more difficult to move things around, lift kegs in and out. In my setup, I think they look cooler outside than inside.
For sure. I hung a 4-tap secondary on the inside of the door of my uprigjt keezer... looks bad azz, but a pain in the azz for cable management.
ZmannR2
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Cold crashed over the past few days and went to harvest yeast today and I’m short a 2” tri clamp (to connect a 2” hose barb in order to funnel that yeast sludge much more easily than just straight outta the butterfly valve)
Well I have one on order but my question is, can I go ahead and rack off the beer to kegs then do the yeast collection on Wednesday? Or will there be not enough pressure to push it out?
Well I have one on order but my question is, can I go ahead and rack off the beer to kegs then do the yeast collection on Wednesday? Or will there be not enough pressure to push it out?
That's what I'd do. Do you have a pressure manifold so you could add a little pressure to the conical to do that?
HB2 HughBHomeBrew
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Awesome. Very nice and thanks for all the detail. I think that’s the next project for me - getting the CO2 tank out of the fridge.
Can you keep cooling the fermenter once it's emptied of the beer? If not then it's not a good idea to keep the yeast without refrigeration for any amount of time so it would be better to wait.
ZmannR2
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I really like the inline sight glas from brewhardware.....as I rotate the racking arm I can see when it begins to pick up trub and I just leave it just above that
ZmannR2
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Also my yeast harvest was full of hops residue, I'll do it next time before the dry hopping.
Is the jars I collected useless now?
Is the jars I collected useless now?
ZmannR2
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So it has settled out wel...these are pint sized jars....would this be enough yeast to pitch into my next 10 gal batch?
It looks to me like there's a lot of hop trub in there.
ZmannR2
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ya there is....if I'm doing another IPA would that affect flavor?
Not really. My comment was more about whether you had enough yeast. It's hard to tell with all the hop trub in there.
I’m still waiting on my job situation to settle so haven’t pulled trigger on the conical yet. But that yeast looks fine to me based on my experience reusing yeast from my Spiedel fermentor.
I use a pint of sloppy trub in 16 gallons. Frequently I keg on brew day. After kegging there is probably a half gallon of beer on top of my trub, yeast cake and dry hops. I swirl the whole mess up and collect a quart in a mason jar. I’ll shake that jar up and use about half in my batch. More if I keg one or two weeks before brewing.
The point of this post is that without a conical there is no way to dump trub and no way to dump yeast before dry hopping. And the beer is still good. The carryover hops have largely given their oils to the previous batch and I’m only pitching 10-20% of them anyway, into another well hopped beer. They just don’t seem impact the final product at all. Now if I was trying to brew a light lager-ish beer using my regular ipa yeast (Re harvested US-05) I might be worried about carry over dry hop material but not into an IPA or APA.
I use a pint of sloppy trub in 16 gallons. Frequently I keg on brew day. After kegging there is probably a half gallon of beer on top of my trub, yeast cake and dry hops. I swirl the whole mess up and collect a quart in a mason jar. I’ll shake that jar up and use about half in my batch. More if I keg one or two weeks before brewing.
The point of this post is that without a conical there is no way to dump trub and no way to dump yeast before dry hopping. And the beer is still good. The carryover hops have largely given their oils to the previous batch and I’m only pitching 10-20% of them anyway, into another well hopped beer. They just don’t seem impact the final product at all. Now if I was trying to brew a light lager-ish beer using my regular ipa yeast (Re harvested US-05) I might be worried about carry over dry hop material but not into an IPA or APA.
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