Sourcing whole grapes for distant shipment?

[Gadjobrinus]

Hi all,

Brand new to winemaking. Well, there was what I called "golden sauternes" as a kid, made from golden raisins and my memory is there was likely any number of ambient critters turning it into....nastiness.

Grew up in a wine family though, with one family member a California pro, and myself in the restaurant trade and loving wine as food, and with food. Background.

I have been spending my early hours (I'm brand new) reading books, but thinking on sourcing, living as I do in the middle of the country (Wisconsin). I'm trying to find a way to get good, whole grapes my way, grapes left at the crush stage at least and not pressed, sent free of their skins, in the varietals I love. I can add tannins, or as my local store said they do, get the frozen juice and buy local grapes, press them and add the skins in, but that just....bothers me.

I consider winemaking 90% growing, or more, and brewing, 90% alchemy, or more. So I'm really searching for a way to somehow get in whole fruit from a known area, even if it's more expensive. So far, I've come up empty.

I am primarily a pinot noir freak, and would love to work on that. Pinot Noir, tons of Burgundies as well as Willamette valley makers; after that, Mosel Riesling, Loire Sauvignon Blanc, Chablis (in steel). Nothing wrong with other areas at all, just indicates my palate preference in these varietals.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Many thanks.

 

[bruinbain]

I've gotten frozen grape must from winegrapesdirect.com . I ordered their 2017 Cab Sauv from Washington St. Shipping was expensive, but it arrived still frozen, well packaged and intact to my house in VA. They crush and then freeze, nothing else. They sell on Amazon as well as direct. Been pretty happy with the product so far, though the wine is still aging, so can't comment on the final end results yet.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The whole reason that Zinfandel took off in California was that it had tough skins that survived the railroad journey to New York - there was an exemption during Prohibition that allowed you to make x gallons of wine at home. In fact Zinfandel was coming home - it was originally grown on the East Coast as a table grape, thanks to its high sugar levels.

The cool-climate grapes are the complete opposite, Pinot in particular, all that delicate aromas are encased in thin skins and are very vulnerable to mistreatment during transport. I imagine that most growers think it's a lot easier to preserve those delicate aromas in a corked bottle with ~12% alcohol as a preservative, than it is to ship the grapes whole. I can imagine someone somewhere does it, but it will be a small business for them and a lot more work than just trucking them to a winery, so I imagine it will cost you. Probably better to find someone making wine locally - isn't there a winery of some kind in all 50 states these days - and scrounge grapes from them somehow.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks guys. Bruibain, thanks for the link, just checked them out. Will dive in to find out more. Thanks too, Northern.

What Northern is saying is true, just about everything with pinot indicates "handle gently; delicate," and spot on with the thin skins. Actually, just got and am reading The Heartbreak Grape, an account of a California Pinot Noir producer, the sea of troubles he faced in getting his estate going, and the beauty of this testy little bast&rd of a grape.

Unfortunately here in the Midwest, we only grow bizarre varietals (I'm talking anywhere close). Good Riesling, however, is grown in Michigan and I can attest at least one grower/vintner - L Mawby - has pulled off successfully growing pinot noir, Riesling, pinot meunier, chardonnay, Vignole, Regent, and pinot gris. He makes extraordinary sparkling wines, including at least two very much in classic Champagne styles (I first tasted his very beautiful Blanc to Blanc; another one with, I think, both Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunier, much darker and opulent both showed a skilled grower, a skilled touch).

Sparkling wines. When we had our restaurant, we made it our ethos to search out smaller, relatively unknown American producers of quality. One was Jolly Pumpkin, the other was L Mawby. The Upper Peninsula had seen neither, and we were proud and gratified to give them another market.

However, I'm screwed. I've got insane lust for Pinot Noir - French Burgundies, some Californians, many Willamette Valley, Oregonians. (One would hope, as the area hosts the annual International Pinot Noir Celebration.** I have found one source with a good reputation, Brehm. As you can see, if I want Pinot, truly expensive. At my capacity (20 gallons, 25% freespace gives me 15 lbs of must), I would need 3 pails and that comes out to about $627, for one of the areas or vineyard. Skin on, which is gratifying to me, nevertheless.....yikes, try explaining this one to my wife. Probably a hopeless cause, though my cousin, who used to head Jekel out of California and when that was bought out, moved to overseeing a sort of specialty red production for Mondavi, knows everything, including sourcing. Haven't been in touch much for years, so we'll see.

Bottom line, yep, Pinor Noir, either whole grapes transported via refrigeration, or sent frozen, with skins on. Also looking for Riesling, chardonnay, viognier, the thick-skinned Zin, Syrah, 6-7 more but the first 3 - Pinot Noir, Riesling, Chardonnay - will probably keep me busy till I leave the planet and become cosmic dust. Pinot Noir and quality, very much Mosel-style Riesling put me into paroxysms of Baccanalian ecstasy.


**I'll brag a bit. When we had our restaurant, my wife was selected as the National Fellow to attend the Celebration. Basically entailed drinking unlimited pinot, or sitting down with top-level growers and brokers from around the world. Sat next to Riedel and they shared several glasses. Wonderful.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Might be worth looking further north? There was a restaurant I used to go to where the sweet spot on the wine list was a Canadian chardonnay from one of the islands in the Great Lakes.

Have you done this before? Sounds like it would be no bad thing to have a trial run with something a bit more affordable before spending the $627?

My comment on New World viognier would be that it really benefits from being blended, it tends to get blowsy unless you have someone who really knows what they're doing in the vineyard (in which case you're paying $$$ for the privilege).

"Sharing glasses" with Riedels means something different to any other dining companion!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Northern. I don't have too much of a sense of much east and west of us, but we travel all the way up multiple times per year ("Upper Peninsula"; shores of Lake Superior) and nothing there but timber and maple, perhaps. I'm trying to think of the many years back and forth, and what we knew anecdotally having lived there (and ran a restaurant), but yeah, I don't believe there's any grape industry, particularly wine grape industry. I could be wrong and it's an interesting idea.

On the expensive foray into pinot noir, you're absolutely write. Does Panglossian come to mind? Extremist dreamer? One whose wife will have murdered him in his sleep?

Yeah, I finally discarded the idea. I'm not seeing much south of $200 per 5 gallon-ish pail, even for less popular varieties. But I need to keep looking, and no reason I always need to make 15 gallons or so of something, either. If my cousin would only send me lugs of cold-freighted pinot.....

Awesome comment on New World Viognier, had no idea. Actually, if I had one critique for most California-Oregon Pinots, it's the fear of acid. My palate, anyway. I like a very delicate hand, of course, and transparency, but yeah, appreciate the brightness that the right acid brings to this grape. I suspect it's probably just tough to grow them with this acidity in the warmth of California sun. I also wonder if New World makers are coming around to a bit more acid, whether added or grown?

Viognier is such an imp. Love it with shellfish, particularly spiny lobster and of course sea scallops. Thanks for that note as I wouldn't have known that (only had French).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

One whose wife will have murdered him in his sleep?

Why do I get the feeling it's not the first time she will have had that thought?

My apologies, I think it was Pelee Island chardonnay that I had, which is up the Detroit end of Lake Erie, so quite a way from you. But as affordable chardonnay goes, it wasn't bad (10 odd years ago!)

We see quite a lot of low-end viognier here, the South Americans tend to blend it with Sauv Blanc, the Aussies and southern French tend to add some chardonnay to stiffen it up a bit. I suspect it's one of those grapes that needs major reining back in the vineyard if it's to give of its best, and the numbers for industrial production favour a higher yield and then blend it. Really good French viognier though....

You could always take Mohammed to the mountain, take some buckets on holiday at harvest time....!!!!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Why do I get the feeling it's not the first time she will have had that thought?

My apologies, I think it was Pelee Island chardonnay that I had, which is up the Detroit end of Lake Erie, so quite a way from you. But as affordable chardonnay goes, it wasn't bad (10 odd years ago!)

We see quite a lot of low-end viognier here, the South Americans tend to blend it with Sauv Blanc, the Aussies and southern French tend to add some chardonnay to stiffen it up a bit. I suspect it's one of those grapes that needs major reining back in the vineyard if it's to give of its best, and the numbers for industrial production favour a higher yield and then blend it. Really good French viognier though....

You could always take Mohammed to the mountain, take some buckets on holiday at harvest time....!!!!

Hahahahah....yeah, butI'm a cagey bastard, lol.

I am so keyed you introduced me to Pelee Island wine! Just a brief foray through their website and it's a sojourn we have to take. And I wasn't aware you'd been to - don't know if that's actually Canada, or the US - but either way, this side of the Atlantic. Nice to know.

On the viognier, I wasn't thinking because my mind was stuck in "they'd never blend that one....." Same as the presumption of pinot in Burgundy. Except for those late nights under cover, heading south, pour un <<peu de graisse.>>

Another one, Vouvray. Shellfish, asian inflections....

Fantastic idea about the harvest, Northern, thanks. Doubt we could get all the way west this vendange, but there's still a lot within shooting distance. Long Island pinot, perhaps?

Certainly Riesling, grown in our neighbor state. Next to good pinot, a somewhat sturdy, washed-stone Riesling is as beautiful as it gets for me.

Lots of good ideas. Thanks buddy.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oh, I've not been there, although I did do a bit of a tour back in the day which included a train from the East Coast to Chicago, then up through Niagara and across Canada. This was just one of our regular bottles in a nondescript restaurant in the London suburbs. The mismatch between British thirst for wine and our domestic production means that we're the centre of the international wine trade, so we get wine from all over the world in a way that just doesn't happen in countries with major domestic production. Admittedly Canadian table wine is still unusual, even more unusual for it to be hitting the right price/quality point.

 

[bucketnative]

Ohio is considered in the "Pinot Belt" according to Wine Enthusiast's blurb here: https://www.winemag.com/2018/05/24/ohio-wine/

Perhaps through contacting a vineyard (or better yet visiting in person) you could arrange to ship some whole fruit north or maybe pick it up yourself.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Oh, I've not been there, although I did do a bit of a tour back in the day which included a train from the East Coast to Chicago, then up through Niagara and across Canada. This was just one of our regular bottles in a nondescript restaurant in the London suburbs. The mismatch between British thirst for wine and our domestic production means that we're the centre of the international wine trade, so we get wine from all over the world in a way that just doesn't happen in countries with major domestic production. Admittedly Canadian table wine is still unusual, even more unusual for it to be hitting the right price/quality point.

Gotcha. Today's claret!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Ohio is considered in the "Pinot Belt" according to Wine Enthusiast's blurb here: https://www.winemag.com/2018/05/24/ohio-wine/

Perhaps through contacting a vineyard (or better yet visiting in person) you could arrange to ship some whole fruit north or maybe pick it up yourself.

Fantastic! Many thanks, Bucket!

 

[madscientist451]

I get my winemaking grapes and juice from Keystone Homebrew in the Philadelphia area. They carry both whole grapes and buckets of juice from California, Washington State and Chile. You can get pretty much any variety you want, whole grapes cost $1-2 per pound, juice runs $55 to $70 for a 6 gallon bucket.
Whites usually arrive here on the east coast starting in August and the Season for Reds runs through October. The grapes from Chile are usually available in May.
I can also get grapes and juice in either Pittsburgh or Baltimore, but the Philly location works better for me. I know there is a large grape wholesaler in Cleveland.
You can get lower prices if you buy it by the ton, but then you run the risk of spending lots of cash for what not be the best grapes.
You'll need a crusher/de-stemmer and a wine press if you buy grapes.
Just starting out, you may want to get buckets of juice, its just easier.
Add campden tablets/sulfite to bucket (or don't), wait 24 hrs. Then put a funnel in a big carboy and dump the juice in. Rehydrate the yeast and toss that in and you are making wine. Its amazingly simple. You can do all kinds of tests and add all kinds of chemicals but I skip all that and do some blending if the the wine needs some help.
If you want to make only Pinot noir, maybe get grapes/juice from different sources so you can do some blending if you have to.
I make red and white wine every year and for the whites, I'll use single varieties.
For the reds, I'll make Merlot, Cab Franc and Cab Sauv and then do some blending after they've aged a couple of years.
I drink the whites starting the summer after the grapes were harvested, so about 9 months. Reds I'll let sit 1-2 years or longer.
I used to use some local grapes but the vineyard owner retired and I can't get anything local anymore. The local white grapes were good but the reds were inferior to what I can get from the west coast.
Check the homebrew/wine shops in your area, there's got to be someone doing the same thing. If not, look a little farther out, maybe towards the Chicago area?
It takes about 20lbs of grapes to make a gallon of wine, and you get 5 , 750ML bottles per gallon, so your cost is going to be $4 to $8/bottle if you buy grapes.
Buying the juice by the bucket is cheaper and easier, you can get your cost below $3/bottle.
A little secret about all the small wineries that are popping up: Some use west coast juice and fruit and blend with what they can get locally. When the polar vortex hit a few years back, upper midwest vineyards suffered and of course the wineries all turned to bringing in grapes from wherever they could get them. They don't have to disclose that and many would rather keep that part of their business to themselves.
So get your carboys together, call around and get ready for August, it will be soon.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I get my winemaking grapes and juice from Keystone Homebrew in the Philadelphia area. They carry both whole grapes and buckets of juice from California, Washington State and Chile. You can get pretty much any variety you want, whole grapes cost $1-2 per pound, juice runs $55 to $70 for a 6 gallon bucket.
Whites usually arrive here on the east coast starting in August and the Season for Reds runs through October. The grapes from Chile are usually available in May.
I can also get grapes and juice in either Pittsburgh or Baltimore, but the Philly location works better for me. I know there is a large grape wholesaler in Cleveland.
You can get lower prices if you buy it by the ton, but then you run the risk of spending lots of cash for what not be the best grapes.
You'll need a crusher/de-stemmer and a wine press if you buy grapes.
Just starting out, you may want to get buckets of juice, its just easier.
Add campden tablets/sulfite to bucket (or don't), wait 24 hrs. Then put a funnel in a big carboy and dump the juice in. Rehydrate the yeast and toss that in and you are making wine. Its amazingly simple. You can do all kinds of tests and add all kinds of chemicals but I skip all that and do some blending if the the wine needs some help.
If you want to make only Pinot noir, maybe get grapes/juice from different sources so you can do some blending if you have to.
I make red and white wine every year and for the whites, I'll use single varieties.
For the reds, I'll make Merlot, Cab Franc and Cab Sauv and then do some blending after they've aged a couple of years.
I drink the whites starting the summer after the grapes were harvested, so about 9 months. Reds I'll let sit 1-2 years or longer.
I used to use some local grapes but the vineyard owner retired and I can't get anything local anymore. The local white grapes were good but the reds were inferior to what I can get from the west coast.
Check the homebrew/wine shops in your area, there's got to be someone doing the same thing. If not, look a little farther out, maybe towards the Chicago area?
It takes about 20lbs of grapes to make a gallon of wine, and you get 5 , 750ML bottles per gallon, so your cost is going to be $4 to $8/bottle if you buy grapes.
Buying the juice by the bucket is cheaper and easier, you can get your cost below $3/bottle.
A little secret about all the small wineries that are popping up: Some use west coast juice and fruit and blend with what they can get locally. When the polar vortex hit a few years back, upper midwest vineyards suffered and of course the wineries all turned to bringing in grapes from wherever they could get them. They don't have to disclose that and many would rather keep that part of their business to themselves.
So get your carboys together, call around and get ready for August, it will be soon.

Fantastic, rich with ideas, madscientist, thank you. I know this will change - it always does - but my heart lies in Pinot, Riesling, steely chardonnay, Sancerre. Crap, well, Gigondas, sauternes, vouvray, viognier, Gruner Veltliner...

Working out thoughts on oak, and sourcing there, too - if on the home level we can move in and out of 3-4 year old barrels, to blend in new, older, etc. Sure know I don't want to drop several hundred every year in wood alone. I don't know if I'm going to be around long enough to wait out the patience required. Maybe I'll put the onus off on my son, much like boutique balsamico over 80 years...

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I'll poke around the winemakingtalk site too, guys, and not related directly to this thread, but in addition to my Spike 20 gallon with a ball valve, I have a simple open fermentation square with TC. It's 10 gallons on the nose.

I presume I could plan on 7.5 gallons of red grapes?

Assuming pinot, any suggestions on oak? I doubt I'll invest in it immediately, but if I sell off some stuff, I'm very interested in working with it. I know that brand new oak is something to be watched out for, and oak blending is often pursued when dealing with 1-3 or 4 year old oak, but I've no time-guidelines if all you have is a 1st year barrel - when to transfer to glass or a closed ss vessel. Any thoughts, or any sources, to think about this?

Many thanks.

 

[madscientist451]

I use the 6 gallon plastic buckets the wine juice comes in for initial fermentation of whole grapes. After its pressed, I use glass or plastic carboys.
I'd skip the barrel and use oak spirals or something similar in part of the wine, and leave a portion un-oaked. You can then do some blending if you get too much oak character.
Here's a place in Chicago that sells wine grapes every September through October. The article says they sell 25 truck loads of grapes every year.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/201...g-some-of-californias-best-grapes-this-month/