Sour Saison concerns

[TommyTbar]

So I brewed this saison today and was originality intended to be clean but after I tasted one of my Belgians that had been sitting in a 5 gallon 3rd use whiskey barrel for a couple of months I knew it was time to bottle, then I decided with the barrel having basically lost all of its whiskey flavor I felt it was time to turn the barrel over to souring, so I racked my red saison over to the barrel.

I almost dumped the yeast cake but thought I could take half of the 11 gallon batch of saison I was brewing today and pitch it on the cake not to waste a perfectly healthy roselare blend.

So here's the recipe and my concerns

11 gallons

17lbs a avangard Pilsen
2 lbs German white wheat
1 lbs Vienna
1 lbs acid malt ( for ph adjustment)

3 oz east kent goldings 60min
1oz Czech saaz 5 min

5.5 gallons with wyeast French saison

5.5 pitched on top of wyeast roselare blend

Mashed for 75 mins @ 150*

I feel the low mash temp\ no oats or any other adjuncts sour will end up way too dry, thin, lackluster

Also with the ibus being decently high around 30 if I remember correctly I was curious how that would effect the lacto.

Can I maybe add maltodextrin later down the road? Or will the brett and such just end up eating that, not super worried about it, just trying to plan accordingly.

Was also thinking of brewing another sour soon with the sole purpose to blend it with this batch.

Thoughts?





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[dantheman13]

I've never tried to sour a high IBU wort, but the conventional wisdom is that it isn't a good idea.

You can definitely add maltodextrin, but eventually the Brett will eat through that too (6-9 months IMO). Another option, and one that I have been playing with, is blending a sour beer with a clean beer at bottling time. In the clean beer you can go heavy with the oats (say 1 pound for 5 gallons). I think that blending with a clean beer requires that the sour beer be fairly potent and sour. For example, I've found that my sour Solera blends well in with a clean saison that I brewed with 2 parts sour 1 part clean saison.

You have a lot of options, and eventually, as your sour matures, you will find something that works.

 

[smokinghole]

The 3711 makes lots of glycerol which gives a slick mouthfeel. That should bolster it from getting too thin however the glycerol can be ultimately metabolized by the bacteria. It likely will get dry and it will get sour but you might be surprised by it not being thin. I made a 1.040 saison 70% pils and 30% spelt and soured it, not thin at all and it's at 1.001. The IBUs won't do anything to the roselare that has pediococcus in it and IBUs around 30 will not hinder souring. I make a 20-30 ibu beer regularly and sour it, I do mix in aged hops for the flavor contribution they contribute (they do have a flavor contribution).

Conventional wisdom on this board can be perpetuated opinions that people repeat over and over because they read it in a book from Papazaian or a statement from Zainasheff 10 years ago. I do not have specific examples but there is plenty of BS repeated in the homebrewing world with no personal experience concerning what they're talking about. It doesn't take a year for brett to finish a beer in secondary, not all sours will end at 1.000, IBUs don't stop souring unless it's a lactobacillus sensitive to hops, not all lactobacillus are sensitive to hops (the yeast company strains are though), and brett can be sanitized away just like saccharomyces. I can probably keep going but I feel like dispelling homebrew myths and conventional wisdom is a waste of time because no one believes the one poster saying "that isn't so". Making beer isn't some ancient form of alchemy or magic. It's big on science, microbiology, and chemistry, with an element of artistry/craft like a chef in combining ingredients to make a pleasurable beverage. I stop short of considering a brewer an artist that is just flat out pretentious, if your product is a piece of art then put it in a gallery for display not in a bottle or keg for drinking.....rant over.

 

[sweetcell]

Also with the ibus being decently high around 30 if I remember correctly I was curious how that would effect the lacto.

Can I maybe add maltodextrin later down the road? Or will the brett and such just end up eating that, not super worried about it, just trying to plan accordingly.

Was also thinking of brewing another sour soon with the sole purpose to blend it with this batch.

IBUs and lacto: depends on the strain. if it's from Wl or WY, chances are the lacto will be inhibited. strains from breweries (dregs) or wild lacto: maybe yes, maybe no.

brett and bugs will chew through maltodextrin.

brewing another batch to blend can be a great idea... need to know more before we can provide an opinion. what is your goal in blending?

I've never tried to sour a high IBU wort, but the conventional wisdom is that it isn't a good idea.

Another option, and one that I have been playing with, is blending a sour beer with a clean beer at bottling time. In the clean beer you can go heavy with the oats (say 1 pound for 5 gallons).

one issue with sour + bitter is that the tastes can clash. pedio and some lacto can deal with higher IBUs, but you might not like the result.

an issue to keep in mind when blending clean & sour beer is that the clean beer might have some residual sugars that the bugs in the sour can ferment. bottle priming could be complicated - hard to know what the CO2 contribution from the clean beer will be. mixing with a super dry beer like a saison will help minimize this potential issue.

 

[Jebediahscooter]

Sorry to threadjack, but I too am making some Saison plans. Going to brew 11 gal. with pils, wheat, munich, hop to about 20-25 ibu, and split the batch. Half will get wlp670 and half will get ecy03. So two farmhouse brett blends. Plan is to let them ride for 3 months.

I've never brewed a sour beer, but say I decide to add blackberries and bugs to one of the batches...can that be done 3 months in if I decide on a whim to do it? Or would I just need to go ahead and pitch bugs with one of the farmhouse blends? Not looking for super sour...think a Hill Farmstead or Crooked Stave barrel aged Saison with some nice tartness. I've had bottles of Fantome Printemps that are just the ticket. Something like that.

 

[sweetcell]

say I decide to add blackberries and bugs to one of the batches...can that be done 3 months in if I decide on a whim to do it? Or would I just need to go ahead and pitch bugs with one of the farmhouse blends? Not looking for super sour...

if you're not looking for super sour, i'd say you're right on target. by holding off on the bugs, you'll ensure that the sacch and brett munch through virtually all of the sugars. by the time you add the bugs, they won't have much to ferment - other than contributions from the berries - so that should keep them in check.

 

[40watt]

Rather than something like maltodextrin, you could just throw some uncooked pasta in the barrel. It may or may not help with mouthfeel as it is broken down, but at the very least it will add starches that should add complexity.

Don't forget that the barrel itself probably still has some structural tannins to offer, which will add mouthfeel.