Something is contaminating my brewery and I have a evidence but need help diagnosing

[Colbizle]

PLEASE READ!

For the past 3-4 months I have been experiencing the exact same issue this thread starter was having over in the BN forums.

All my beer regardless of the style, hop amounts (e.g. 6oz boil, 4-5 oz dry hop for 5gallon batch), yeast types, water chemistry ect, ect, came out incredibly bland tasting, stale, and lifeless. Like carbonated beer flavored water. Practically Zero malt character, hop aroma or flavor. Just tasted muddled and dirty.

This issue has started for me around April/May since that is the last time I brewed good beer and around the same time I brewed a beer that got a medal in a local competition.

I never once thought of infection because none of the beers exhibited classic infected symptoms. They never tasted tart, sour, or funk. I always hit my final gravity in relation to my mash temps and had strong fermentations and near perfect attenuation. The only other outlier was that I noticed my final beer PH taken from the fermentors were always pretty low, around 3.8 to 4.1. (I know yeast can have the biggest influence on final beer ph.) I've always been super anal about sanitation as well and never had an infected batch so I looked at other controllable fixes like recipe formulation and water chemistry ect..

After doing everything I possibly can from water chemistry and ph to trying different waters (RO vs Tap with filter and campden) and literally losing my mind and my soul, I came to the conclusion that I must have a contaminant of some kind.

So last Thursday (sept 3rd) I decided to see if I can pinpoint/recreate this issue by capturing this contaminant. I whipped up some DME with boiled distilled water and then sterilized 5 half-pint glass ball jars in boiling water for 15 minutes on the stove. Then I put the opened jars around some areas.. One jar near the sink where I immersion cool my wort, one in the fermentation chamber, one got aerated with an aeration stone (which was boiled the other day but not sanitized or sterilized today), one is on the stir plate with tin foil covering it, and the last one is the control that got a lid on it right away to avoid contamination. I let them sit out (except the control and aeration stone) for exactly 2 hours and then I recorded the brix and PH of each one. Then I capped and screwed them on with the jar lids.

Control:
PH: 5.95
Brix: 11
Taste/Aroma: tasted and smelled like DME

Near Washer:
PH: 5.96
Brix: 11
Taste/Aroma: tasted and smelled like DME

Aeration stone:
PH: 5.96
Brix: 11
Taste/Aroma: tasted and smelled like DME

Fermentation Chamber:
PH: 5.96
Brix: 11
Taste/Aroma: tasted and smelled like DME

Stir Plate with Tin foil:
PH: 5.96
Brix: 11
Taste/Aroma: tasted and smelled like DME

This morning (sept. 6th) I checked each one.

Control:
PH: 3.64
Brix: 11 (no change)
Taste/Aroma: smelled a little tart, stale bland aroma (very similar to my problem batches), no DME aroma, did not taste.

Near Washer:
PH: 3.64
Brix: 11 (no change)
Taste/Aroma: same as control ^

Aeration stone:
PH: 3.96
Brix: 10 (dropped a whole 1 Brix)
Taste/Aroma: smelled terrible, moldy sour cheesy, sour, tart. Defiantly infected. Did not taste.

Fermentation Chamber:
PH: 4.66
Brix: 9.6 (dropped 1.4 Brix)
Taste/Aroma: similar to aeration stone but way more apparent moldy sour cheese, musky. Sour. Did not taste. Def infected.

24hour Stir Plate with Tin foil:
PH: 3.60
Brix: 11 (no change)
Taste/Aroma: smelled kinda tart, a bit dme aroma, oxizided (which expected). Tasted a couple drops on the tongue. Slightly tart, slight dme taste, not funky, tasted like a finished starter with out yeast character.

So in conclusion:
-------------------
The control, near washer, and stir plate all had the ph drop below 4. BUT zero change in Brix! I don't know how the control got contaminated, I must have messed something up there but don't know what, I thought I closed it right away. Anyways the ph, tastes and smells are exactly my current issues.

The fermentation chamber and aeration stone both had higher finishing ph 4.66 and 3.96 respectively. They ALSO had a Brix change 1.4 and 1 Brix respectively. They also exhibited complete signs of infection given the ph, aromas and gravity change they are least likely correlate with the issues of my problem batches and here's why. 1.) The aeration stone was not sanitized or sterilized and I do that before aerating a batch. 2.) my fermenting beers get a airlock and are not exposed to the open air of the fridge.

WOW!!, I'm so happy (I'm not crazy! lol) that I was able to capture some great results! but at the same time super confused and little scared on what to do. So the control, near washer, and stir plate all are reflecting my exact problem with all my recent problem batches and is definitely what is contaminating my batches. Low ph but no brix/gravity change, dull flavors and aromas. What kind of airborne containment can cause this?!

As for the other stuff, I'll be throwing away my aeration stone and buying a New fridge for fermentation.

Please help!!!

 

[greenacarina]

I'm certainly no expert, but if this were me I would scrub that whole room down with bleach and try to eliminate any air movement (drafts, heater vents, etc...)
By the time your beer is going into the ferm chamber, it should already have the airlock on, so I can't imagine that would be your problem.
After your beer reaches pitching temp, how long til you pitch your yeast?
How large of a yeast starter do you pitch?

The way I have always understood is - Cool your beer quickly, do your best to keep the cooties out, pitch a big yeast starter ASAP.
Not sure what else could cause the infection....

Good luck!!
Chris

 

[Colbizle]

I'm certainly no expert, but if this were me I would scrub that whole room down with bleach and try to eliminate any air movement (drafts, heater vents, etc...)
By the time your beer is going into the ferm chamber, it should already have the airlock on, so I can't imagine that would be your problem.
After your beer reaches pitching temp, how long til you pitch your yeast?
How large of a yeast starter do you pitch?

The way I have always understood is - Cool your beer quickly, do your best to keep the cooties out, pitch a big yeast starter ASAP.
Not sure what else could cause the infection....

Good luck!!
Chris

I always make an appropriate sized starter using Mr. Malty. I pitch the yeast anywhere from immediately to I think the longest I've ever waited was an hour. I pbw and sany the starter jar before adding cooled dme and yeast.

Given my experimentations I've concluded that I believe this is an airborne contamination mostly likely being inoculated from the air into the starter while on the stir plate. It seems like the most logical explanation.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what kind of contaminant can cause ph to drop but not gravity.

 

[Cyclman]

Do one with a direct pitch, no starter. I would try to break down each step in your process, and where possible, eliminate that step. Aerate manually, ice bath to chill, etc. Do small batches, you'll figure it out.

 

[Colbizle]

Do one with a direct pitch, no starter. I would try to break down each step in your process, and where possible, eliminate that step. Aerate manually, ice bath to chill, etc. Do small batches, you'll figure it out.

Ya I was at my friend's brewery this weekend helping him brew and he gave me some fresh wyeast 2572 straight from the conical. So I can direct pitch with that.

My plan tmrw is do everything in the garage tmrw and not expose any wort in my house and basement where this airborne contaminant is coming from.

I guess I just want to know what kinda of bacteria drops ph. It's not wild yeast since gravity/Brix was unaffected.

 

[MichaelBD]

Where do you mill your grains?

 

[madscientist451]

I agree that you are probably getting the contaminant into the beer when you make the starter. Most people use a loose foil lid when they make a starter, if you are doing that you could switch to an airlock. The starter will grow slower but that really doesn't matter that much vs/an infection. Or you could make the starter somewhere else. The post right before this asked where are you milling your grain?
The milling process should be moved out of your brewery area.

 

[joshesmusica]

Ok, so just to be sure I'm understanding correctly, none of these experiments had yeast pitched in them right? They were all simply wort?

If that's the case, then I have to disagree that you're necessarily infecting your beer from the starter, because two of these worts got this "infection" that were not on the stir plate. The three that got a real infection were because of their location. The three that got your "infection" all have two things in common:
1) They all came from the same pot/kettle.
2) None of them got a full-on infection.

One of my other hobbies is as a sound technician. Problem solving is a huge aspect of that. So if I put your scenario into a sound board analogy, it would go something like this:

I've got all my sound coming through one main snake, which has a stage box at the end with 6 channels. Three channels have just been completely destroyed, I'm not getting any kind of frequencies out of them (your three full-on infections). The other three seem to have this slight buzz to them. I'm still getting plenty of sound through them, but this small buzz is just ruining any output. I would first try different mics, instruments, etc. on each channel to make sure that it's for sure the channels that have the problem, and not the items being plugged into them. Once I conclude that the channels are the problem, I would then completely switch out the snake and attached stage box (your pot/bk).

So my logical conclusion is that the entire snake has the problem. I would not conclude that one of the channels is messing up all the other channels, because they don't touch each other. I mean your control got this problem as well. So what was your method of getting the wort into each jar from the BK? That's where I would personally conclude the problem is coming from.

BTW have you read this?:
http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

 

[Colbizle]

Ok, so just to be sure I'm understanding correctly, none of these experiments had yeast pitched in them right? They were all simply wort?

If that's the case, then I have to disagree that you're necessarily infecting your beer from the starter, because two of these worts got this "infection" that were not on the stir plate. The three that got a real infection were because of their location. The three that got your "infection" all have two things in common:
1) They all came from the same pot/kettle.
2) None of them got a full-on infection.

One of my other hobbies is as a sound technician. Problem solving is a huge aspect of that. So if I put your scenario into a sound board analogy, it would go something like this:

I've got all my sound coming through one main snake, which has a stage box at the end with 6 channels. Three channels have just been completely destroyed, I'm not getting any kind of frequencies out of them (your three full-on infections). The other three seem to have this slight buzz to them. I'm still getting plenty of sound through them, but this small buzz is just ruining any output. I would first try different mics, instruments, etc. on each channel to make sure that it's for sure the channels that have the problem, and not the items being plugged into them. Once I conclude that the channels are the problem, I would then completely switch out the snake and attached stage box (your pot/bk).

So my logical conclusion is that the entire snake has the problem. I would not conclude that one of the channels is messing up all the other channels, because they don't touch each other. I mean your control got this problem as well. So what was your method of getting the wort into each jar from the BK? That's where I would personally conclude the problem is coming from.

BTW have you read this?:
http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

First, thanks for the help! What a great link, my situation is very similar to what the guys is, thank you for sharing that.

As for the experiment. I sterilized 5 jars with their caps in a pot of boiling water for 15 minutes and then filled each jar with cooled DME that I made (just like a starter but without adding yeast.). I then poured the DME into each jar and a put one by the sink/washer where I cool my wort and one in the fermentation chamber where they sat open for 2 hours before I capped them. As for the other three, one was capped right away which was the control, one was aerated with a dry but un-sanitized aeration stone, and the last one was put on the stir plate for 24-36 hours.

The aeration stone and fermentation chamber both got fully infected since not only did the PH dropped but the Brix/gravity dropped as well.

The stir plate, control, and sink/washer jars both had a PH drop down to 3.65~ but the brix/gravity did NOT change at all. This tells me that this is NOT wild yeast but is some type of lactic acid producing bacteria? that is airborne and it is the same strain that contaminated each of the three jars and what has been contaminating my brewery for the last 6 months.

The reason why the PH and Brix are such important clues is because all my beers never had a problem hitting their targeted final gravity.

Thoughts?

 

[Colbizle]

Reached out to white labs. They said they would test my wort for a bacterial analysis for 150$ bucks. Ouch.

 

[Colbizle]

Where do you mill your grains?

At northernbrewer by my house. I'm too cheap to throw some cash down on a mill.

 

[Colbizle]

I agree that you are probably getting the contaminant into the beer when you make the starter. Most people use a loose foil lid when they make a starter, if you are doing that you could switch to an airlock. The starter will grow slower but that really doesn't matter that much vs/an infection. Or you could make the starter somewhere else. The post right before this asked where are you milling your grain?
The milling process should be moved out of your brewery area.

Ya I mill at northernbrewer, that's not my issue.

I'm pretty sure my contaminant is coming from the starter as well.
I just decided to check the PH of the starter that I had going that just finished spinning on the stir plate for 24 hrs. The final ph at room temp was 3.8 which does NOT seem right.. It's been in the fridge for 6 days and it's still hazy too.. I've noticed all my starters since this problem began were not flocculating by crash cooling...

 

[d3track]

NB Minneapolis? You're close to me then

 

[madscientist451]

At northernbrewer by my house. I'm too cheap to throw some cash down on a mill.

Reached out to white labs. They said they would test my wort for a bacterial analysis for 150$ bucks. Ouch.

I'm sure they could identify what is in the sample, but I agree its not cost effective. What are you using to sanitize your brewing equipment?

 

[Colbizle]

NB Minneapolis? You're close to me then

Yep, I live in armatage neighborhood!

 

[Colbizle]

I'm sure they could identify what is in the sample, but I agree its not cost effective. What are you using to sanitize your brewing equipment?

PBW, then flush multiple times with HOT ASS tap water, then Sany with Star San.

 

[madscientist451]

How long is your contact time with the star san?

 

[madscientist451]

Also, how are you packaging your beer? Bottling or kegging?

 

[Colbizle]

How long is your contact time with the star san?

At least 30 seconds if I'm just dipping stuff like tools, but for carboys and kegs few minutes usually.

Also, how are you packaging your beer? Bottling or kegging?

Kegging only. Kegging isn't the issue because I'm seeing this problem before even transferring to keg with the low PH readings.

 

[d3track]

Yep, I live in armatage neighborhood!

Sweet, Kenny neighborhood. Last year i was washing yeast, and it was this time of year I had jars get a mold infection. Wonder if the seasonal pollen change makes it more susceptible.

 

[Gavin C]

If you're concerned about your starter being the vector, here is what I believe to be the most sanitary way to make them, eliminating pretty much any risk of infection.

I'm not convinced the starter is your problem though although it certainly may be.

 

[joshesmusica]

If you're concerned about your starter being the vector, here is what I believe to be the most sanitary way to make them, eliminating pretty much any risk of infection.

I'm not convinced the starter is your problem though although it certainly may be.

yeah i'm not convinced either.

OP, you seem to be more concerned with what particular strain of bacteria might be affecting this. haha i mean i understand, it's a mystery, but i'd be much more concerned about the cause than what it actually is. you didn't really answer me about your bk. what did you make these test batches in? a normal pot, or a kettle with a spigot? how did you transfer the wort into the jars? was it the same or different than you do with your normal batches?

i don't really know much about brix, but i believe it's still just measuring how much sugar is left in the liquid correct? and in that case, lacto strains still consume sugars for metabolism.

 

[DU99]

starsan recommends 0ver 2mins

 

[Trail]

I wonder if this could be bacteria on your hands? That's another factor common to every batch. Getting the analysis done by White Labs could be helpful in confirming both a bacterial origin for the problem, and the possible sources for the bacteria.

And while $150 is expensive, it's not more expensive than replacing your gear one piece at a time, or more expensive than three more fouled batches...

 

[andrewmaixner]

I keep my steel aeration stone/rod in starsan when not in use. I have a long skinny plastic tray ( http://www.biyhomebrewsupply.com/products/sanitizingtray?variant=480616429 ) that holds 2 gallons of starsan, and it stores my thief+hydrometer, aeration thingy, autosiphon, and anything else that might be long and skinny and infect-able.

 

[Colbizle]

I wonder if this could be bacteria on your hands? That's another factor common to every batch. Getting the analysis done by White Labs could be helpful in confirming both a bacterial origin for the problem, and the possible sources for the bacteria.

And while $150 is expensive, it's not more expensive than replacing your gear one piece at a time, or more expensive than three more fouled batches...

That bacteria hand theory is a really good point! Thanks!

 

[joshesmusica]

can someone confirm or not that lacto bacteria would have eaten up sugars as well and therefore affected the brix reading?

 

[Colbizle]

yeah i'm not convinced either.

OP, you seem to be more concerned with what particular strain of bacteria might be affecting this. haha i mean i understand, it's a mystery, but i'd be much more concerned about the cause than what it actually is. you didn't really answer me about your bk. what did you make these test batches in? a normal pot, or a kettle with a spigot? how did you transfer the wort into the jars? was it the same or different than you do with your normal batches?

i don't really know much about brix, but i believe it's still just measuring how much sugar is left in the liquid correct? and in that case, lacto strains still consume sugars for metabolism.

The test wort was made in a steel 4qt cooking pot and I boiled the DME in it for 10 minutes. I then cooled the pot in an ice bath and poured the cooled DME into each of the jars.

Brix is just another way to measure sugar concentration but you only need a few drops instead of in a hydrometer where you need a few ounces.

 

[joshesmusica]

The test wort was made in a steel 4qt cooking pot and I boiled the DME in it for 10 minutes. I then cooled the pot in an ice bath and poured the cooled DME into each of the jars.

Brix is just another way to measure sugar concentration but you only need a few drops instead of in a hydrometer where you need a few ounces.

gotcha, and what is your normal method of getting wort into fermenters, kettle with a spigot? have you taken that thing apart and cleaned it?

as far as the experiment wort, where was the ice bath? did you dry off the bottom and sides of the pot before pouring into the jars?

 

[actionjackson905]

Wonder if the seasonal pollen change makes it more susceptible.

Along with the above, a couple of things strike me as off. But first, is your brewery and work area in your basement? And how old is your home? Airborne mould could be your culprit. In my work/brew area I have an exhaust vent running 24/7, plus a dehumidifier and an air cleaner to eliminate any dust that escapes the vent. With regards to your stir plate, the vortex will cause a constant draw of air, that is how something might be entering your test wort at that test site. The other thing that I notice is you said that you let your DME wort cool in the pot before pouring it into to your erlemyer flask. If you poured the wort in there boiling hot you avoid picking anything up during transfer and also sanitize the flask in the process. Make sure you flask is made from borosilicate glass to avoid shattering when quick heating/cooling.

Good luck with this one. Following with interest.

AJ

 

[cannman]

I've attributed the rare infection to poor starter car....

BUT the one issue that gets overlook IMHO is line care. Line is cheap. Just dump it. All transfer and bottle lines should be discarded and replaced. I seem to replace my lines once in the spring and again in the fall. I keg and even though I use LLC, I still replace. I'll never lose beer to bad lines again.......

 

[Colbizle]

Along with the above, a couple of things strike me as off. But first, is your brewery and work area in your basement? And how old is your home? Airborne mould could be your culprit. In my work/brew area I have an exhaust vent running 24/7, plus a dehumidifier and an air cleaner to eliminate any dust that escapes the vent. With regards to your stir plate, the vortex will cause a constant draw of air, that is how something might be entering your test wort at that test site. The other thing that I notice is you said that you let your DME wort cool in the pot before pouring it into to your erlemyer flask. If you poured the wort in there boiling hot you avoid picking anything up during transfer and also sanitize the flask in the process. Make sure you flask is made from borosilicate glass to avoid shattering when quick heating/cooling.

Good luck with this one. Following with interest.

AJ

is your brewery and work area in your basement?

Actually what I do is brew outside, then on flameout I put the lid on and carry the pot downstairs to my basement where I chill with my immersion wort chiller in the basement sink, then I rack into to a bigmouth bubbler, then move it into the fermentation chamber. So post boil is all in the basement in an area that is not fully finished.

How old is your home? Airborne mould could be your culprit. In my work/brew area I have an exhaust vent running 24/7, plus a dehumidifier and an air cleaner to eliminate any dust that escapes the vent.

I live in a home that was built in 1950s (as with 90% of homes in this area), I agree, I suspect airborne mould as well.. Although I've lived in this home for 2+ years now, this issue just started about 6 months ago and nothing really hasn't changed much in my brewing process and techniques. Although with this new problem, I'm looking into purchasing some air purifiers to put around my home and basement.

With regards to your stir plate, the vortex will cause a constant draw of air, that is how something might be entering your test wort at that test site. The other thing that I notice is you said that you let your DME wort cool in the pot before pouring it into to your erlemyer flask. If you poured the wort in there boiling hot you avoid picking anything up during transfer

Actually I use a big 1 gallon glass jar with tinfoil on the top. (I've always made my starters with these jars.) but I suspect, maybe, with this increase in "airborne mould", that with the such large opening of the jar, I'm drawing in too much air for the tinfoil to block out the nasties. For normal starters, I already do what you suggested, I pour the hot dme into the thick glass jar, cap it, and then put in the freezer or in a ice water bath until cooled. However, for the sake of this experiment, I cooled it in the pot first then poured it into the 1/2 pint jars since they were so small.

 

[Colbizle]

Solved the issue. First my wife and I went on a cleaning rampage and cleaned the entire home lol. Then I threw away everything plastic including fermentors, lines, thiefs, spoons, ect, that I've had for a few years. I swapped my HLT to my mash tun and got new parts for it, and I switched to glass carboys. I also switched my sany from star-san to iodophor.

Just checked a recent batch from the fermentor and the PH came in at a 4.37 which also used the same yeast I've been using since this problem started.

I know I changed many variables but I mentally couldn't bare another failed batch so I just said f-it and switched as much things as I could without breaking the bank.

MAN, It feels really good to finally overcome this issue that has plagued me for far far too long.