So what score in a contest would you consider disappointing?

[Braufessor]

Thanks, They were 14B & 14C, I usually only enter one IPA.

My wife is about to kill me, I have my calendar full of brew dates,dry hop dates, Kegging dates,shipping date to keep onto of these competitions.

Ha.... I can relate to the calendar I do the exact same thing and it can get a bit overwhelming trying to coordinate it all. My wife is the delivery person for UPS.... and gave me an eye-roll when she saw the box sitting by the door last night.

I may have to pick your brain sometime in regard to IPA's...... I love IPA's, but I just don't brew them that much and rarely enter them in comps. I do have one I brewed recently that I really like, but can't say I have been overly successful making them over the years. Two medals at midwinter in that category is great. I tend to primarily enter british ordinary bitter, British Mild, Dortmunder, helles, pilsner, american amber and brown......Those are more in my wheel house.

 

[JPrather]

Sure. And lots of people think McDonald's makes a great burger. It wouldn't win any competitions though.

So, objectively, is a Quarter Pounder with Cheese "good" burger? Or filler-laden, mass-produced, sodium-rich crap? Lots of people like them, so they must be "good," right?

This analogy is awful and backfires if applied properly. The correct analogy to beer would be to create a burger making competition that attempts to emulate known popular burger styles from around the globe. Category 1a would be "American Fast Food Burger", and Category 1b would be the slightly higher gravity "American Quarter Pounder".

And you'd have people on forums sharing clone recipes for McDonald's Quarter Pounders, debating whether or not you should use real cheese to get that optional "cheese" flavor or if letting the burger sit out for a week is the proper method.

So, yes, if you believe that BJCP-beer styles are objectively "good" beer, you are concluding so based on the assumption that because people liked those beers historically, that means they're good.

 

[Homercidal]

Oh, man I used to make an awesome Big Mac clone when I was a kid. I cheated and took the extract route though: Frozen Patties.

Damn I want a Big Mac now.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Oh, man I used to make an awesome Big Mac clone when I was a kid. I cheated and took the extract route though: Frozen Patties.

Damn I want a Big Mac now.

Dang it! Big Mac attack now!

 

[IL1kebeer]

Awards ceremony tonight for America's Finest City homebrew competition with 500+ entries IICR. I have 2 beers entered and a score under 40 would be disappointing for me if it didn't place, but I guess I set the bar too high. I'm sure I'll have a bit of disappointment to pass around. We shall see soon...


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Phunhog]

Well I just bottled a truly awful BoPils for a comp. I figured I want to see if I can destroy the judges taste buds....forever. I would be excited to receive a score in the low 20's....it really deserves a 13 at best. At least the other beers I am entering are decent.

So here is an important lesson!! That "awful" BoPils just won first place in a BJCP comp! However when I bottled it I was sick and my palate must have been destroyed because it tasted truly awful. Bad enough that I thought I was going to have to dump the keg. Good thing I held off because it tastes great now:rockin:

 

[IL1kebeer]

Awards ceremony tonight for America's Finest City homebrew competition with 500+ entries IICR. I have 2 beers entered and a score under 40 would be disappointing for me if it didn't place, but I guess I set the bar too high. I'm sure I'll have a bit of disappointment to pass around. We shall see soon...


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

Well I got silver with my Imperial IPA with a lowly 32. I was disappointed in the score but happy that I got a medal. I wasn't expecting too much because I seriously rushed this beer by bottling it from my keg before it had a chance to really clear. I got knocked points for appearance across the board and I'd imagine I lost a some for flavor since it was a bit rough still.

Good news is that I got a gold against 21 other beers with my American Stout. I got a score of 37 and the judges noted that it could have been more roasty/chocolaty. They really hit it right on the head because I used some restraint with the roasted malts as to not overdo it. A couple of tweaks and I might be able to break 40 with this one.

 

[TopherM]

Must have been a very small competition that 32 was the second best in category 14. In the competition I judged a couple weeks ago, we had 9 flights of 6 beers, so 54 IPAs in Category 14. 32 would have been about the median score in our data.

 

[IL1kebeer]

Must have been a very small competition that 32 was the second best in category 14. In the competition I judged a couple weeks ago, we had 9 flights of 6 beers, so 54 IPAs in Category 14. 32 would have been about the median score in our data.

It had 11 or 12 beers for Cat 14c. They split imperial ipa from the rest of cat 14. 555 total entries in the comp.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Must have been a very small competition that 32 was the second best in category 14. In the competition I judged a couple weeks ago, we had 9 flights of 6 beers, so 54 IPAs in Category 14. 32 would have been about the median score in our data.

I got a silver with a 28 in 16 before (entered 16E), and it was a decent sized competition too. I think there were 20-25 entries in the category.

When that happens, I look at it either that my beer was better than a 28, and these were just very harsh judges all around (which I think was the case) or just every other entry in the category was really bad. The beer that beat me for 1st took best in show at that comp. So it's hard to tell.

Point being, there may be something at play other than the number of entries.

 

[Darwin18]

Your score of 28 likely meant nothing when it came to determining placing for that category. With 20 - 25 entries in that category, you most likely had a mini-BOS and your score was good enough to get you there where it went heads up against the others that qualified. You likely had tough judges though with that score and that placing with that many entries.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Your score of 28 likely meant nothing when it came to determining placing for that category. With 20 - 25 entries in that category, you most likely had a mini-BOS and your score was good enough to get you there where it went heads up against the others that qualified. You likely had tough judges though with that score and that placing with that many entries.

Which is also a good point. Nothing about Mini-BOS marked on the score sheet for it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one.

And yeah, I think it was tough judges. I've had a couple BJCP certified friends taste it and say it should have been much higher (mid 30s at least).

 

[TopherM]

I got a silver with a 28 in 16 before (entered 16E), and it was a decent sized competition too

That's against BJCP rules, BTW. The rules clearly state that a beer must score 30+ to medal.

But yeah, when the judges do the mini-best in show to determine the category winners, they are supposed to ignore the score it received in the flight judging, so it's not just the highest flight score wins, it's blindly judged a second time by the most experienced judges among all of the flight judges if it makes it to the 2nd round. That eliminates any aberrations that may have occurred in the flight judging by having inexperienced judges.

I've definitely seen beers scored in the mid 30s beat beers scored in the low 40s during the mini-BOS judging.

 

[biereblanche]

That's against BJCP rules, BTW. The rules clearly state that a beer must score 30+ to medal.

I don't believe that is so; perhaps you've mistaken a 'rule' that some competitions apply for a BJCP rule. BJCP doesn't care much how comps are run.

The BJCP has few rules that apply to a competition. Organizers have wide latitude to create a unique competition experience. However, the following rules do apply to all competitions:

Blind tasting must be used. ..
Entries must be judged to published styles. The BJCP Style Guidelines are the preferred standard, but any other published guidelines can be used...
Feedback must be given to the brewer or entrant. The BJCP judging forms are recommended, but not mandatory....
Judging must be fair to all entrants. ... This is an intentionally loose definition that allows competitions to have their own unique character without being overly proscriptive.... The Sanctioned Competition Handbook and Judge Procedures Manual should be used as a guide.
Competition reports must be filed promptly...
A judging panel must have a minimum of two judges and a maximum of four judges, including any Novice judges or judges in training.
The BJCP Privacy Policy must be followed...

 

[Darwin18]

That's against BJCP rules, BTW. The rules clearly state that a beer must score 30+ to medal.

Sorry, but this is incorrect as biereblanche pointed out above. Some competitions have scoring/placing policies in place, but the common one that I've seen uses 30 as a cut off for 1st place, only.

I've definitely seen beers scored in the mid 30s beat beers scored in the low 40s during the mini-BOS judging.

As have I. I'm a big fan of mini-BOS as it's a heads up between the best beers of that category with both judges being able to communicate and discuss the beers without needing to worry about the score sheets.

 

[bob1852]

I'm a big fan of mini-BOS

I hate 'em. I had three beers go to mini-BOS in the 1st round of NHC last year (scored 38-40) and none of them placed.

Of course, I'm kidding. I think it's a great way to truly place the best beers in a category...

 

[Qhrumphf]

That's against BJCP rules, BTW. The rules clearly state that a beer must score 30+ to medal.

I don't believe that is so; perhaps you've mistaken a 'rule' that some competitions apply for a BJCP rule. BJCP doesn't care much how comps are run.

Sorry, but this is incorrect as biereblanche pointed out above. Some competitions have scoring/placing policies in place, but the common one that I've seen uses 30 as a cut off for 1st place, only.

I was gonna say, I know that some competitions have rules like that, but I was never aware of that being a hard and fast rule among all BJCP comps.

 

[TopherM]

I looked up the actual reference, and it is a "suggestion" in the BJCP competition guide, so you are correct that it is not a hard rule, but it's definitely a good guideline!

 

[NervousDad]

I just got my feedback from my local comp that had a ridiculously low score of 22. This same beer got a 39 and 37.5 in other competitions during the same week.

I have no problem if I get a low score and I enjoy the feedback, but this one, it was awful.

They said it was vegetal,DMS,oxidized and estery. The astringent check box was check on one then erased. Oxidized I can understand, maybe something went wrong during bottling. It looks like both score sheets where altered, some boxes were erased. One judge was non-BJCP and the other was recognized.

The feedback that invalidated it for me was that they said I should ferment at a lower temp (I fermented at 62) and that I should leave it on the yeast cake longer (it was in the primary for 21 days).

Lastly they said, it was overly hoppy with warming alcohol and not enough malt profile. It was a IIPA . I tossed those score sheets, they didn't help anything with my process at all.

 

[CadillacAndy]

I just got my feedback from my local comp that had a ridiculously low score of 22. This same beer got a 39 and 37.5 in other competitions during the same week.

I have no problem if I get a low score and I enjoy the feedback, but this one, it was awful.

They said it was vegetal,DMS,oxidized and estery. The astringent check box was check on one then erased. Oxidized I can understand, maybe something went wrong during bottling. It looks like both score sheets where altered, some boxes were erased. One judge was non-BJCP and the other was recognized.

The feedback that invalidated it for me was that they said I should ferment at a lower temp (I fermented at 62) and that I should leave it on the yeast cake longer (it was in the primary for 21 days).

Lastly they said, it was overly hoppy with warming alcohol and not enough malt profile. It was a IIPA . I tossed those score sheets, they didn't help anything with my process at all.

Those are exactly the kind of score sheets that get tossed. Chalk your $7 up to experience, and move on.

In their defense, it sounds like they at least they tried to give feedback. Better than saying "bad beer. better luck next time." Which isn't too far off from some comments I've seen before...

 

[Qhrumphf]

I just got my feedback from my local comp that had a ridiculously low score of 22. This same beer got a 39 and 37.5 in other competitions during the same week.

I have no problem if I get a low score and I enjoy the feedback, but this one, it was awful.

They said it was vegetal,DMS,oxidized and estery. The astringent check box was check on one then erased. Oxidized I can understand, maybe something went wrong during bottling. It looks like both score sheets where altered, some boxes were erased. One judge was non-BJCP and the other was recognized.

The feedback that invalidated it for me was that they said I should ferment at a lower temp (I fermented at 62) and that I should leave it on the yeast cake longer (it was in the primary for 21 days).

Lastly they said, it was overly hoppy with warming alcohol and not enough malt profile. It was a IIPA . I tossed those score sheets, they didn't help anything with my process at all.

I hate those score sheets. Sometimes I know from past results, from tastings by palates that I trust, and my own impressions, that what they're saying cannot be true. So either the judges are poor, or it's possible the comp organizers made an error and mixed up entries. In either case, I disregard as a fluke, but I'm still mad about it for a while afterwards.

 

[Braufessor]

I just got my feedback from my local comp that had a ridiculously low score of 22. This same beer got a 39 and 37.5 in other competitions during the same week.

I have no problem if I get a low score and I enjoy the feedback, but this one, it was awful.

They said it was vegetal,DMS,oxidized and estery. The astringent check box was check on one then erased. Oxidized I can understand, maybe something went wrong during bottling. It looks like both score sheets where altered, some boxes were erased. One judge was non-BJCP and the other was recognized.

The feedback that invalidated it for me was that they said I should ferment at a lower temp (I fermented at 62) and that I should leave it on the yeast cake longer (it was in the primary for 21 days).

Lastly they said, it was overly hoppy with warming alcohol and not enough malt profile. It was a IIPA . I tossed those score sheets, they didn't help anything with my process at all.

Agreed with you and the others - toss. Also, a good example of why it is important to send a beer to a few places if you really want some good feedback. I had a similar experience with a pilsner - Scored over 40 in 3 comps, winning the category in all 3, and they were good sized comps. A 4th comp, it scored low 20's and the descriptors did not even make sense in relation to the beer I sent. The color, description etc. were not even accurate. Talked about haze and cloudiness in a beer that you could read a newspaper through... To be honest, I really think it may have gotten mislabled and switched with someone else somehow.

This has been rare in my experience, but, every once in a while you do get some sheets that really do seem completely inaccurate.

 

[machfive55]

I just got my feedback from my local comp that had a ridiculously low score of 22. This same beer got a 39 and 37.5 in other competitions during the same week.

I have no problem if I get a low score and I enjoy the feedback, but this one, it was awful.

They said it was vegetal,DMS,oxidized and estery. The astringent check box was check on one then erased. Oxidized I can understand, maybe something went wrong during bottling. It looks like both score sheets where altered, some boxes were erased. One judge was non-BJCP and the other was recognized.

The feedback that invalidated it for me was that they said I should ferment at a lower temp (I fermented at 62) and that I should leave it on the yeast cake longer (it was in the primary for 21 days).

Lastly they said, it was overly hoppy with warming alcohol and not enough malt profile. It was a IIPA . I tossed those score sheets, they didn't help anything with my process at all.

I've had this same thing happen to me. I had to wonder where things went wrong... bad bottle, switch-up on the judges table, poor storage, judges palate fatigue...there are lots of places for things to go wrong. For most brewers who are experienced at comps its not a big deal, for a new brewer who just entered a comp it could be very discouraging. They get bad feedback on a beer that is generally pretty good. I agree if you really want good review then enter the beer in 3 different comps, also get honest feedback from some club members who are afraid to tell the truth. Take the average of all these comments and that will give you a good starting point.

 

[NervousDad]

^ Yep I would be pretty upset if this was my first competition. I don't want to come off like a sore loser, they obviously detected something, most likely my fault during bottling.

My gripe is that they couldn't figure it out so they just started to check off boxes. The too hoppy comment just didn't make any sense too me. One of my other score sheets dinged me to not being hoppy enough. My palette sucks, but I can taste most of the flaws in my beer when they are pointed out to me. With this one, I didn't taste any of them with the exception of some oxidation. O' well, time to start kegging up some beer for more competitions

 

[tommyguner03]

alright was as i expected.. i entered four beers in a comp and figured one would score in 30's. and well one only did. an irish red.. 31 .. which i thought was over carb but no mention of that.. and my vanilla porter which i entered in spice and scored a low of 25 ..next a cali common which i figured would score low cause i over carbed .. score of 25 and my low score of 23 my brown ale which i entered into specialty only because i brewed with molasses brown sugar and maple syrup and well the molasses took over all the flavor .. ohh well better luck next time.. this was a big comp with 800 entries. so maybe 20 plus per category? still a fun time .. cheers

 

[Darwin18]

I hate 'em. I had three beers go to mini-BOS in the 1st round of NHC last year (scored 38-40) and none of them placed.

Of course, I'm kidding. I think it's a great way to truly place the best beers in a category...

I think I now hate mini-BOS' unless I'm judging, of course. I submitted a cream ale to a local competition this weekend and it scored a freaking 45! The national ranked judge in the pair gave it a 46. It "only" took 3rd after the mini-BOS. My theory is that it went very early in the flight and sat around for quite a while waiting for the mini-BOS round...

The rest of my beers did okay...I confirmed that my Belgian Specialty is crap and that I need to replace it for NHC and quickly. Hoping my Vienna will stand in nicely.

 

[NervousDad]

Ouch that's a really nice score to only take 3rd. I'd think a score like that would get you BOS.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I think I now hate mini-BOS' unless I'm judging, of course. I submitted a cream ale to a local competition this weekend and it scored a freaking 45! The national ranked judge in the pair gave it a 46. It "only" took 3rd after the mini-BOS. My theory is that it went very early in the flight and sat around for quite a while waiting for the mini-BOS round...

The rest of my beers did okay...I confirmed that my Belgian Specialty is crap and that I need to replace it for NHC and quickly. Hoping my Vienna will stand in nicely.

I understand the point mini-BOS and will concede it's a necessary evil, but that would absolutely infuriate me if that happened.

 

[Darwin18]

I was honestly more than a little bummed that it didn't place higher, BUT I'm trying to look at it from a positive angle. It's the highest scoring beer that I've ever entered and it was scored that high by a high ranking judge - not some guy pressed into service off of the street. It gives me a little bit of hope for the NHC this year. I'm definitely a little concerned about my Munich Helles and Imperial Stout that scored in the low 30's. I had higher expectations for those. I did enter the Helles a bit young and it has noticeably improved since. I'm glad the competition confirmed my thoughts about my 100% Brett Specialty - it's going to be tight but I'm going to try to replace it.

 

[CadillacAndy]

I was honestly more than a little bummed that it didn't place higher, BUT I'm trying to look at it from a positive angle. It's the highest scoring beer that I've ever entered and it was scored that high by a high ranking judge - not some guy pressed into service off of the street. It gives me a little bit of hope for the NHC this year. I'm definitely a little concerned about my Munich Helles and Imperial Stout that scored in the low 30's. I had higher expectations for those. I did enter the Helles a bit young and it has noticeably improved since. I'm glad the competition confirmed my thoughts about my 100% Brett Specialty - it's going to be tight but I'm going to try to replace it.

I know this feeling very well. On several occasions I've had the highest scoring beer in an entire competition and have walked away with NOTHING... and not just by a point or two, but by 5-6 points.

 

[progmac]

I finally got my comments back on an RIS that I thought was VERY good but that only scored a 27. Still licking my wounds. But the scoresheets were interesting. The commentary was almost all positive, but all said that it missed the mark for style.

"Too dry"
"WAY too small for an RIS"

were two of the comments.

Seeing as this beer had an OG of 1.110 and is being called "dry," (a description that I completely agree with) I think maybe it would work better as a belgian.

I also take some kind of pleasure in brewing a 1.110 that was declared "WAY (sic) ... small"

This was judged by three judges, two certified BJCP, and one who I know leads classes. So I feel good about it being judged fairly.

 

[masteraviator]

My local brewclub did our first competition this weekend. Three judges, none of whom were BJCP; two were selected at random the night of the competition. My clone of Stone's Russian Imperial Espresso Stout scored poorly IMO. But, that doesn't change my opinion of my beer. As far as I and a couple of friends who love Imperial Stouts are concerned it compares very closely to the real thing which is a 97 on Beer Advocate. But, the judges didn't like it and scored it on average a 26. Oh well. I already have another batch in the primary and will likely always try to have a keg of this on tap. Absolutely an all time favorite of mine, so while it's hard to not take it personally or rationalize about the judges, I will drink it while smiling.

 

[rmyurick]

I generally brew for my own taste, but I'd say anything less than 35 would be disappointing. I like my beer and so do my friends--I usually don't even bother with contests.

 

[rmyurick]

Progmac--(you probably know this already, but) they probably expected more non-fermentables, which affect mouthfeel. Some flaked oats or barley or maybe maltodextrin.

 

[progmac]

Progmac--(you probably know this already, but) they probably expected more non-fermentables, which affect mouthfeel. Some flaked oats or barley or maybe maltodextrin.

I just couldn't bring myself to add maltodextrin or oats to a beer that big! I was on the other end, mashing low, adding adjuncts, aerating daily. It did get down to 1.015. But the result was, it seems, too thin, too bland. This was only the second beer over 1.100 I've ever brewed; clearly I have a lot to learn!

 

[kchomebrew]

I like this post. I guess a disappointing score is one where they tell you to quit brewing. That hasn't happened yet for me. But anyway, the judges are human. Get palate fatigue, maybe are in a bad mood, got stressed out from their 9 to 5 and their head wasn't into it, forced to judge a style they don't like, who knows. I will say this. I've had a 45 that took a gold get scored later as a 31. No sense. So whatever. It's fine. Not a democrat or anything but I'm reminded of al gore's comments in inconvenient truth where he talks about presenting his speech on global warming to many audiences and learning how to tweak the speech to connect with the person on the crowd he thought didn't get it. If you want to win brew competitions, get in the head of the judge and go that route.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Phunhog]

I just got my scoresheets back from a comp a few weeks ago. A Grand Master II scored three of my beers. He wrote something that really made my day....."No technical faults". Now one beer (swartzbier) only received a 27 from that judge. His comments though indicated that it scored low because of "style" problems and NOT because it wasn't a well made beer, from a technical level at least. The way I see it...you easily change a recipe but it is much harder to diagnose/correct a technical problem. BTW he gave the other beers a 35 (BoPils) and a 37 (Dubbel).

 

[rmyurick]

"aerating daily"-wouldn't that cause oxidation? Or were you just swirling the fermenter, not adding air or O2?

 

[progmac]

"aerating daily"-wouldn't that cause oxidation? Or were you just swirling the fermenter, not adding air or O2?

i must have had mead on the brain when i wrote that post! i did 1 min pure o2 when i pitched and then again at signs of fermentation, so just twice. but maybe that was part of the problem, after all it did only get a 27!

 

[iowabrew]

Just got sheets back from a local comp, my IPA that i love scored a measily 27. Comments said diacetyl present from both judges, watch fermentation temps, etc. Pitched rehydrated 05 and sat at 68F. Now i did rush this a little by getting it in the keg and carbed by day 16...

I was a little dissapointed...can i not taste diacetyl?? I'm only using about 7% crystal and 20-40L at that, could this be taken as the big D?