So it begins! Recipe Help needed

[Braumeise]

So it begins.

I am as excited as a child for christmas waiting on my stuff to arrive.
I will pick up my chest freezer end of the week hoping my Ranco unit has found its way to my home by then so I can install it right away.

first two important tools are here already, did not leave the house without them, never know what you come across that you have to measure

After talking to you guys I shall refrain from going for Lager for my very first brew but try something easier.

I do not want to brew anything I don't like and wit beer was sort of never on my list (did not care for Hefeweizen or Weißbier as it is called in Munich) at all until I found Lost Abbeys Witches Wit and even better Einstök white Ale.

So Einstök obv. shares the same philosophy as I do:

Our quest was to make the best white ale we ever tasted, with the complex flavors of a classic witbier, all brewed with pure Icelandic water for a cool smoothness that is deliciously refreshing.

Wheat malt, pilsner malt, oats, bavarian noble hops spiced with coriander and orange peel.

ABV: 5.2%

Tasting notes:
A clean and crisp start with a smooth mouthfeel thanks to the oats, citrus and spice round out a refreshing finish.

Food pairings:
The crisp, citrus and spice notes are the perfect complement to seafood, poultry, vegetarian dishes, Asian food, and spicy food, including Mexican, tapas, Indian and Thai.

NOTE: All Einstök beers are 100% vegan, with no GMOs.

http://einstokbeer.com/icelandic-white-ale/

no kidding! my quest is to make the best Lager I ever tasted but I can totally agree to practice trying to come up with the best wit beer I ever tasted and If I have to brew that a 100 times until I get it right, so be it.

Looking through the recipe database here, I did find some that sounded promissing yet since I never tasted them it would be of great help if you guys who have had a Einstök white Ale before point me into a direction for a basic witbeer recipe that I can brew and then alter brew by brew.

Thank you!

on a side note: proud German that I am I will start all-grain right away, no extract or partial or brew in a bag experiments. If I screw up I have at least lots of healthy horse treats.

 

[joshesmusica]

I think you may be confusing wit with weizen. weiß and wit are the same, if google translate is of any help. A belgian white wheat ale is not the same as a german hefeweizen. So if you like the witbier (or weißbier), but don't like a hefeweizen, it's completely understandable, as the by-products from the yeast produce very different flavor profiles.

That being said, the main thing you would want to find to reproduce the witbier that you really enjoyed is to find the yeast they used. The other ingredients will obviously add to the flavor profile a bit, but a large portion of that very typical witbier flavor comes from the yeast. And then, as you can see from the ingredients list that you posted, coriander seeds (important that it's the seeds) and bitter orange peel typically make up the rest of the flavor.

The oats seem a little out of place, as typically they are used for their proteins that help with head retention and mouth feel. But if you're using as much wheat as you should be, it should be enough.

Does that witbier you like have yeast in the bottle? If so, I would email the company and see if the yeast they use for bottle refermentation is the same strain as they use for primary fermentation. If so, you could attempt building up that yeast from the bottle dregs. If not, they might possibly tell you what strain will get you closest to theirs. Although, you would also need to know their fermentation temperature profile, because a lot of those esters and phenols that you're tasting are coming from fermentation temperatures.

In the end, though, a witbier is a really easy beer to get tasting really really good. But to get it to be the best you've ever had will definitely take multiple attempts, with different fermentation temps on each different attempt, and then rigorous note-taking in order to figure out which temperature profile you enjoyed the best.

 

[Braumeise]

I think you may be confusing wit with weizen. weiß and wit are the same,

I figured. Yet, you might be perfectly right that I am confusing this. While the Rest of Germany says Hefeweizen you disqualify yourself as a "pessant" from the subburbs if you order a Weizen in Munich. there is no such word in Munich it is Weißbier but they actually mean weizen/hefeweizen when they order a "weißbier".

I have tried to make sense out of this. Not that easy

if google translate is of any help. A belgian white wheat ale is not the same as a german hefeweizen. So if you like the witbier (or weißbier), but don't like a hefeweizen, it's completely understandable, as the by-products from the yeast produce very different flavor profiles.

That being said, the main thing you would want to find to reproduce the witbier that you really enjoyed is to find the yeast they used. The other ingredients will obviously add to the flavor profile a bit, but a large portion of that very typical witbier flavor comes from the yeast. And then, as you can see from the ingredients list that you posted, coriander seeds (important that it's the seeds) and bitter orange peel typically make up the rest of the flavor.

I use Coriander seeds in my bread so I do have them in Bulk-Bags.
And it makes perfect sense that I still don't like Hefeweizen but that I do like Witbeer. so finally I have that straight. Thank you! As if it wasnt complicated enough

The oats seem a little out of place, as typically they are used for their proteins that help with head retention and mouth feel. But if you're using as much wheat as you should be, it should be enough.

Does that witbier you like have yeast in the bottle? If so, I would email the company and see if the yeast they use for bottle refermentation is the same strain as they use for primary fermentation. If so, you could attempt building up that yeast from the bottle dregs. If not, they might possibly tell you what strain will get you closest to theirs. Although, you would also need to know their fermentation temperature profile, because a lot of those esters and phenols that you're tasting are coming from fermentation temperatures.

In the end, though, a witbier is a really easy beer to get tasting really really good. But to get it to be the best you've ever had will definitely take multiple attempts, with different fermentation temps on each different attempt, and then rigorous note-taking in order to figure out which temperature profile you enjoyed the best.

No yeast in the bottle, but I will double check next bottle I open.
Many thanks - as I said, if I need to brew it 100 times + I will do that and I have fun keeping books and exploring alternations and what they produce in the end so this will be quite a journey.

Mille Grazie!

 

[unionrdr]

As an additional note, BIAB ( Brew In A Bag) can be all grain, partial mash or just used for steeping grains. That's your choice. It's not a crutch, but rather a way to mash when you don't have the room or cash for separate mash tun, hot liquor tank, etc. So far, I'm up to partial mash...mostly mash actually. I mash some 8.5lbs of grains with maybe 2 1/4lbs extract. And I still make very good versions of dampfbier & kottbusser, to name two. So it does show what BIAB can do. And I'm mainly German & Slovak...

 

[Braumeise]

As an additional note, BIAB ( Brew In A Bag) can be all grain, partial mash or just used for steeping grains. That's your choice. It's not a crutch, but rather a way to mash when you don't have the room or cash for separate mash tun, hot liquor tank, etc.

I'll see about the space - I certainly do not have the cash, yet I am Shopping Queen... by means of aprox. 5 excel sheets, I figured out how to get a wonderful Mash-Tun... I'll post pictures once I have my set up done and it will be sort of "sophisticated Ghetto-Style" *lol

So far my most expensive Item is my Freezer with the Temperature Control Unit. All the rest is "german ingenuity - female logic - DIY..." and adds up to less than 200 bucks ...

So far, I'm up to partial mash...mostly mash actually. I mash some 8.5lbs of grains with maybe 2 1/4lbs extract. And I still make very good versions of dampfbier & kottbusser, to name two. So it does show what BIAB can do. And I'm mainly German & Slovak...

This "teabag" thing was tempting, yet reading in German sources there were a lot of good arguments that the principle might work fine for tea yet not really excellent for grains so I dumped that idea right away.

Also I want my set up to be as close to where I want to get to so I think the non bag version is a good way for me.

I do not by any means doubt that you can't make good beer using BIAB... just wasn't at all appealing to me.

I'll keep you guys posted

 

[unionrdr]

Well, the bag just takes the place of a separate mash tun with screening at the bottom to hold back the grains when draining. Then I do a batch sparge for 10 minutes in a separate kettle for 10 minutes. I stretch the bag over the rim of the 2nd kettle in order to stir the sparge. Definitely helps to get the goods outta the grains. I try to get the amounts of wort from the main mash & sparge to equal a boil volume of between 3-4 gallons in my 5 gallon kettle.

 

[Braumeise]

I'll figure it out.

So now I need opinions on this wit beer recipe please. If I start with exactly this (only leave out the lemon zest) and then gradually alter it... like use Bavarian noble Hops instead of Czech Nobel hops...

Could that get me on the right track?

Here is the recipe: (with a link to the original web site):

http://www.brewery.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_66.html

Ingredients: (for 5 gallons)

4.0 lbs Belgian pils malt
4.0 lbs raw soft red winter wheat
0.5 lbs rolled oats
0.75 oz coriander, freshly ground
Zest from two table oranges and two lemons
1.0 oz 3.1% AA Saaz
3/4 corn sugar for priming
Hoegaarden strain yeast

Procedure:
Mash in: 12 qt. at 124F
Protein rest: 15 mins. each at 124, 128, and 132
Saccrification: 30 minutes at 161F
Mash out: 10 minutes at 170F

Sparge with 5.5 gallons at 168-170 (may be pH adjusted to 5.5)

Boil: 90 minutes
Hops: 1 addition, 30 minutes from the end of the boil
Coriander: 1 addition, 15 minutes from end of the boil
Peels: 1 addition, 10 minutes from end of boil

Lactic acid can be added at bottling if desired. Use 10-20 ml of 88% lactic acid, or to taste.
Specifics:

O.G.: 1.046

 

[joshesmusica]

If you're buying malts in the US, there isn't a need for protein rests. I would just do a single infusion at like 150F for 60 mins. Also you really only need to boil for 60 minutes.
I usually only use orange peels, but I'm sure the lemon would be good too. If you're going to zest an orange yourself, the more of the white pith you have, the more bitterness you'll get from them. I usually only boil the peels and the coriander seeds for 5 mins.
As far as the hops, it's just figuring out how many ibus you want, and add enough hops to hit that number. If you haven't already, I would invest in beersmith. Once you get your equipment profile nailed down, it will be one of the best brewing tools you'll own. But it can still be very useful when starting out.

 

[m00ps]

agreed, I just do a single step mash for nearly everything I do, including wits. Dont waste your time with like a 5-step long ass mash followed by an extended boil. You're brew day is already long enough

 

[Braumeise]

If you're buying malts in the US, there isn't a need for protein rests. I would just do a single infusion at like 150F for 60 mins. Also you really only need to boil for 60 minutes.

I have been told this before, it won't hurt if I still do it, just to "stick" to the recipe, will it?

I usually only use orange peels, but I'm sure the lemon would be good too. If you're going to zest an orange yourself, the more of the white pith you have, the more bitterness you'll get from them. I usually only boil the peels and the coriander seeds for 5 mins.

Thanks! It is probably similar to lemon zest in Cake or pastry or cream where you try to avoid the withe stuff as well... but thanks for pointing that out again.
I feel brewing a good beer is not so far away from cooking or baking sophisticated stuff... so I might not fall in every beginners trap there is... but maybe that is only wishful thinking, we will find out.

As far as the hops, it's just figuring out how many ibus you want, and add enough hops to hit that number. If you haven't already, I would invest in beersmith. Once you get your equipment profile nailed down, it will be one of the best brewing tools you'll own. But it can still be very useful when starting out.

I looked into beersmith and am definitely getting the free trial and will probaly invest in it after that.

So I took a close look at one of the bottles we have in the bar and... ta..da! You gave me the best hint ever, it does have yeast sediment on the bottom, yet it is so dense that you do not pour it into the glass that is how I haven't noticed until you pointed it out.
Ordered a case today.

have you ever successfully done that? Harvested yeast from the sediment of a commercial brewed bottle?

Thanks alot for the priceless hints you gave me, will help alot and I will let you know how my first brew turned out!

 

[Braumeise]

agreed, I just do a single step mash for nearly everything I do, including wits. Dont waste your time with like a 5-step long ass mash followed by an extended boil. You're brew day is already long enough

Thanks Guys...

have to admit I am slightly OCD and manic so if the recipe says so, I have a tough time not doing it unless I have the vast experience and knowledge to trust my self to alter something. But I'll think about it... since I have been told three times now not to waste my time...

 

[joshesmusica]

I have been told this before, it won't hurt if I still do it, just to "stick" to the recipe, will it?



Thanks! It is probably similar to lemon zest in Cake or pastry or cream where you try to avoid the withe stuff as well... but thanks for pointing that out again.
I feel brewing a good beer is not so far away from cooking or baking sophisticated stuff... so I might not fall in every beginners trap there is... but maybe that is only wishful thinking, we will find out.


I looked into beersmith and am definitely getting the free trial and will probaly invest in it after that.

So I took a close look at one of the bottles we have in the bar and... ta..da! You gave me the best hint ever, it does have yeast sediment on the bottom, yet it is so dense that you do not pour it into the glass that is how I haven't noticed until you pointed it out.
Ordered a case today.

have you ever successfully done that? Harvested yeast from the sediment of a commercial brewed bottle?

Thanks alot for the priceless hints you gave me, will help alot and I will let you know how my first brew turned out!

check out this thread, apparently it might actually hurt it with the malts we have these days:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=507054&page=7

Yes I would say brewing is a lot like cooking, in that there is a lot of creativity involved. But, as with cooking, if you don't have the experience to understand each and every ingredient and the way they all interact with each other, you might make a few mistakes at the beginning. From reading your posts over the last few months, my biggest piece of advice for you (and this is coming from an extreme perfectionist) is: don't be afraid of failing. You will have batches that just don't come out right. You might experiment with a new ingredient, and it turns out you don't like that ingredient at all. You might follow a recipe for a sort of crazy style to the T, and then it comes out like ****. Once you accept that it is inevitable, that screwups will happen, then I think it will make the hobby much more enjoyable for you.

This is one of the better videos I've seen on how to propagate yeast from a bottle. You don't really need a whole 6-pack, although I suppose it might go faster the more that you have to start with. Or you could just go buy WLP400 which is supposedly the hoegaarden strain.

 

[Braumeise]

check out this thread, apparently it might actually hurt it with the malts we have these days:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=507054&page=7

Thanks...
I'll probably try both anyway.

Yes I would say brewing is a lot like cooking, in that there is a lot of creativity involved. But, as with cooking, if you don't have the experience to understand each and every ingredient and the way they all interact with each other, you might make a few mistakes at the beginning. From reading your posts over the last few months, my biggest piece of advice for you (and this is coming from an extreme perfectionist) is: don't be afraid of failing. You will have batches that just don't come out right. You might experiment with a new ingredient, and it turns out you don't like that ingredient at all. You might follow a recipe for a sort of crazy style to the T, and then it comes out like ****. Once you accept that it is inevitable, that screwups will happen, then I think it will make the hobby much more enjoyable for you.

Thanks a lot and I am not afraid of messing up completely...
as long as I keep track of what I am doing and why so I can learn from it.

This is one of the better videos I've seen on how to propagate yeast from a bottle. You don't really need a whole 6-pack, although I suppose it might go faster the more that you have to start with. Or you could just go buy
WLP400 which is supposedly the hoegaarden strain.

I checked some websites and videos seems doable.

Most of my equipment arrived today needs some DIY but should be ready to go next week. and I have made up my mind... I'll harvest the yeast from the bottles and will use the recipe above. Just to see how close that gets me to what I want and than I'll take it from there.

Thanks again and I'll keep you all posted

 

[Gavin C]

Procedure:
Mash in: 12 qt. at 124F
Protein rest: 15 mins. each at 124, 128, and 132
Saccrification: 30 minutes at 161F
Mash out: 10 minutes at 170F



O.G.: 1.046

Ditch this mash schedule.

I'm all for experimenting with various mashing methods and profiles. Something I enjoy experimenting with. I would strongly recommend doing a single infusion mash for your brews till such time as you can nail your single scarification rest temperature with ease. Do it in your sleep almost.

In making lagers I have done step mashes via direct heating the tun (this is not an option for you with a cooler), via infusion mashing, via decoction mashes and with combined approaches.

Pros and cons to each method but it does take some doing. As a first brew I think you are biting off more than you can chew with this arguably needless and possibly detrimental complexity to the mash profile.

This profile is just so complex with 3 separate protein rests and a short (short for a conventional crush) and hot scarification rest.

Here is a great thread illustrating making a Wit from one of HBT's legends, @biermuncher himself. Looks simple and delicious. That's who I would try to emulate initially if making a Wit. Once you gain some skills, you can plough your own furrow and take on whatever you feel capable of. I just wanted to give you my 2c. Disregard as needed. Best of luck with the brew.

 

[madcowbrewing]

I hope your excitement sticks through this recipe. I would say most newbie's start with something simple like an amber ale or such. Starting with All grain and a Wit, might take you to your wit's end.

 

[Braumeise]

I hope your excitement sticks through this recipe. I would say most newbie's start with something simple like an amber ale or such. Starting with All grain and a Wit, might take you to your wit's end.

seriously Sir! They convinced me to not start with a Lager but go for a Hefeweizen or something like that.

I am not going to brew anything I don't like so....

and you are talking to a real German "Housewife" well... sort of!
We (proud, German women, raised by highly neurotic, highly OCD Mothers) use nothing that comes pre packaged or in bags or premixed for cooking...

I am confident I'll get something drinkable doing this from scratch
maybe not in my first attempt but hey, my equipment wont mind if I brew the same recipe 100+ times to get it right

 

[Braumeise]

Ditch this mash schedule.

I'm all for experimenting with various mashing methods and profiles. Something I enjoy experimenting with. I would strongly recommend doing a single infusion mash for your brews till such time as you can nail your single scarification rest temperature with ease. Do it in your sleep almost.

I was going to do that, since almost everybody here advised me to do so.
I was going to try the multi step/temperature later to see if it would be any improvement - and that means I need to brew something nice first

In making lagers I have done step mashes via direct heating the tun (this is not an option for you with a cooler), via infusion mashing, via decoction mashes and with combined approaches.

Gotcha!

Pros and cons to each method but it does take some doing. As a first brew I think you are biting off more than you can chew with this arguably needless and possibly detrimental complexity to the mash profile.

I actually thought so

This profile is just so complex with 3 separate protein rests and a short (short for a conventional crush) and hot scarification rest.

obv. something Germans love doing and it might in fact be useless when using highly modified grains as they are sold around here.
So I have ditched that idea and was shooting for the simple approach.

Here is a great thread illustrating making a Wit from one of HBT's legends, @biermuncher himself. Looks simple and delicious. That's who I would try to emulate initially if making a Wit. Once you gain some skills, you can plough your own furrow and take on whatever you feel capable of. I just wanted to give you my 2c. Disregard as needed. Best of luck with the brew.

Thank you!
You'll all get first hand information on whats happening in terms of brewing this weekend and if it is at all drinkable

 

[soacyeuopar]

I try to get the amounts of wort from the main mash

 

[Braumeise]

But since we are just talking about it:

I will absolutely attempt to harvest the yeast from Einstök - although I guess for my very first brew I should have one component on the safe side so I know it wasn't a failure to harvest the yeast if it turns out horrible

Since Einstök claims wheat malt on the ingredients I will not try to find red soft winter wheat but go with malt.

I'll talk to the guys in the home brew store before purchasing anything.

And I will probably end up being one of those: hey, I changed everything about this recipe and my beer came out totally bland, what went wrong - Posters...

but....

on the other hand - I might not

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't understand why everyone is saying that a wit is harder to brew than a red or pale ale. Can someone explain?

 

[m00ps]

From personal experience, it took me more tries to brew a wit that I was happy with than a pale or amber. I think its because of the trap that most newer brewers fall into of cramming too much/many specialty malts into their recipes.

Wits (like most belgians) are simple and yeast driven. I hadnt learned to handle belgian yeasts yet. They are pretty delicate so off flavors are noticeable. With a pale ale, you can just cover it with hops

 

[Braumeise]

From personal experience, it took me more tries to brew a wit that I was happy with than a pale or amber. I think its because of the trap that most newer brewers fall into of cramming too much/many specialty malts into their recipes.

Wits (like most belgians) are simple and yeast driven. I hadnt learned to handle belgian yeasts yet. They are pretty delicate so off flavors are noticeable. With a pale ale, you can just cover it with hops

Makes sense

but I do not want to cover anything with Hops. In fact I do not like heavily hoped beers and I do not want to brew anything I won't drink so I rather brew something I can't drink (because I mess up) in the attempt to try for something I love drinking in the long run

 

[joshesmusica]

Yeah maybe I got lucky, but I thought the only wit that I brewed came out nice. Now I think I need to brew another one soon.

 

[madcowbrewing]

From personal experience, it took me more tries to brew a wit that I was happy with than a pale or amber. I think its because of the trap that most newer brewers fall into of cramming too much/many specialty malts into their recipes.

Wits (like most belgians) are simple and yeast driven. I hadnt learned to handle belgian yeasts yet. They are pretty delicate so off flavors are noticeable. With a pale ale, you can just cover it with hops

I agree here. The Wit is driven by fermentation and how you treat the yeast. It also has spices that can be over or under done. I too did a decent wit on my first try, but after 8 years of brewing. I am not saying it cannot be done, just take your time and don't always look to jump off that giant cliff...start with the diving board.

 

[Braumeise]

Hey, Lager is my "giant cliff"

I am not a huge fan of pale or amber ales. And I really need to brew something I want to drink. It is pointless otherwise.

Yet, I will most likely do a "test run" not brewing anything drinkable, just getting a feel for what I am doing (hopefully).

But all the warnings I have gotten so far contain so much very crucial information. Much appreciated (even if it looks like I am not taking anything to heart - I am!) Thank you guys!