So I racked into a secondary...sweet is normal right?

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pjewell

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An Amber hod podge of sorts- 6 gallons

3 pounds UME Amber
3 Pounds UME Light
1 Pound DME Amber
.5 Pounds Amber Malt Specialty Grains
Hops during the boil

I had a little sip of what came out of my primary after 8 days. Tasted a little sweet. Not overly powerful, but easily detectable.


Will a week or two in a secondary fermenter clear this up? If not, what?
 
You supplied the Malt by weight but no info on the hops, this could be a reason why it's sweet.

You also didn't supply OG or FG for us so you may have racked too soon leaving sugars behind that were meant to be fermented out.
 
While for different brews it will probably be different, I made a Irish Red as my second brew. When I bottled it, it tasted much sweeter&maltier than I had expected it to. After sitting in bottles for a couple weeks, the flavors balanced out.
 
I'd have left it in the primary for at least 3 weeks, what was your OG and FG, as well as the hop amounts/type/AAU's?
 
haha as you can see I am pretty new at this.


I need a hydrometer to measure OG and FG. Well I could measure FG but the hydrometer I have is really meant for aquariums, but it will give a ok reading. Better than nothing.


1 ounce of cascade hopes
1 ounce of Willamette (sp?)

I dont know the AAUs



I didnt mess it up too bad ?
 
At what time in the boil did you put your hops in? I can give you a rough idea of what your IBU's are. Based on that and the FG reading we can see if your beer is sweeter than the norm. Either way, I'd probably just leave it be for a couple of weeks, maybe longer.
 
haha as you can see I am pretty new at this.


I need a hydrometer to measure OG and FG. Well I could measure FG but the hydrometer I have is really meant for aquariums, but it will give a ok reading. Better than nothing.


1 ounce of cascade hopes
1 ounce of Willamette (sp?)

I dont know the AAUs



I didnt mess it up too bad ?

But you didn't take one before you racked to secondary? THen how do you know it was TIME to do that?

If your beer is sweet, it's not finished fermenting, and therefore there was no reason to move to secondary, yet.

Why did you decide to move it so soon?
 
The 1-2-3 method, or anything that advocates moving a beer out of primary based on a time frame of just a few days is NOT one of the best methods out there, even sillier than going by airlock action.

Moving your beers arbitrarily after a week doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )

If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.

You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.

OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....

Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.

So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

You will find that many of us leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks (or more) and only secondary if we are adding fruit or oak, or to dry hop (though many of us dry hop in primary now as well)....and we have found our beer vastly improved by letting the beer stay in contact with the yeast.

There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;

How To Brew said:
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

If you do decide to secondary, without a hydrometer, then wait til about 14 days after you pitched yeast, that way you will make sure that the beer has finished, and also give it a couple days for the yeast to clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors (and more than likely won't be cleaned up in secondary away from the yeast.)

Then leave it in secondary for another 2 weeks.

But please, make your next purchase a hydromter, and learn to use it....don't rely on arbitrary idiocy like the 1-2-3 rule or airlock bubbling as your guide...they are both flawed methods...

And often you will find that the yeast have their own timeframe, and agenda, because it is they who are in charge after all, not us. :D They've been doing it for 45 million years, so they are pros...

But realistically, the only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometerThink evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....

But without a hydrometer, then WAITING is the best answer as to when to secondary (again if you choose to, many these days don't and it has even been covered on Basic Brewing Radio and in Byo, the long primary/ no secondary shift in brewing consciousness.)

Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.

:mug:
 
While for different brews it will probably be different, I made a Irish Red as my second brew. When I bottled it, it tasted much sweeter&maltier than I had expected it to. After sitting in bottles for a couple weeks, the flavors balanced out.

Carbonation will totally change the flavor. It adds an acidic bite that counteracts the soft malt flavor. When tasting the flat beer at botteling time don't expect it to taste like the finished product.
 
I had a similar experience last week when I racked my first brew to secondary. While I don't distinctly recall a sweet taste, I noted that it tasted thin and watery. It had very little flavor (especially compared to the Bell's Best Brown I was drinking at the time).

This was an extract kit (w/ steeping grains) from Brewer's Best (a brown ale). When I took my OG it was 1.036 (0.010 pts lower than my target OG), then immediately came on HBT looking for answers. I attributed my low OG to not mixing well enough (I really hope that was the case). So, anyway, my hydrometer read 1.010 when I racked to secondary, after 8 days in primary.

I'm worried about the low OG because I don't have markings on my 6-gal carboy. I think I may have added too much water. The wort started off as 2.5-gals. Hopefully I boiled off a gallon because I added 3.5 gals of refrigerated water to it when it went into the primary.
 
I had a similar experience last week when I racked my first brew to secondary. While I don't distinctly recall a sweet taste, I noted that it tasted thin and watery. It had very little flavor (especially compared to the Bell's Best Brown I was drinking at the time).

This was an extract kit (w/ steeping grains) from Brewer's Best (a brown ale). When I took my OG it was 1.036 (0.010 pts lower than my target OG), then immediately came on HBT looking for answers. I attributed my low OG to not mixing well enough (I really hope that was the case). So, anyway, my hydrometer read 1.010 when I racked to secondary, after 8 days in primary.

I'm worried about the low OG because I don't have markings on my 6-gal carboy. I think I may have added too much water. The wort started off as 2.5-gals. Hopefully I boiled off a gallon because I added 3.5 gals of refrigerated water to it when it went into the primary.

I think I made the same exact beer from the same kit as you. I seem to remember thinking the same thing, but the beer turned out just fine.

I wouldn't worry too much. It seems pretty difficult to mix up the wort with the top off water enough to get an accurate OG reading. My last beer I had to mix it up for a good 5 minutes, oxygenate it with pure oxygen for several minutes, then mix it up a little more to get the OG reading I was expecting.

If I'm doing my math right, I think you would've had to fill up your carboy to 6.3 gallons or so to reduce 5 gallons of a 1.046 OG beer to 1.036. Seeing as how you have a 6 gallon carboy, that's pretty impossible. I think you would've noticed if you hit anything near 6 gallons. Maybe you overfilled by a quart or two, but it's probably not as bad as you think.

Wait until it is bottle conditioned and carbonated to judge.
 
The 1-2-3 method, or anything that advocates moving a beer out of primary based on a time frame of just a few days is NOT one of the best methods out there, even sillier than going by airlock action.

Moving your beers arbitrarily after a week doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )

If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.

You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.

OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....

Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.

So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

You will find that many of us leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks (or more) and only secondary if we are adding fruit or oak, or to dry hop (though many of us dry hop in primary now as well)....and we have found our beer vastly improved by letting the beer stay in contact with the yeast.

There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;



If you do decide to secondary, without a hydrometer, then wait til about 14 days after you pitched yeast, that way you will make sure that the beer has finished, and also give it a couple days for the yeast to clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors (and more than likely won't be cleaned up in secondary away from the yeast.)

Then leave it in secondary for another 2 weeks.

But please, make your next purchase a hydromter, and learn to use it....don't rely on arbitrary idiocy like the 1-2-3 rule or airlock bubbling as your guide...they are both flawed methods...

And often you will find that the yeast have their own timeframe, and agenda, because it is they who are in charge after all, not us. :D They've been doing it for 45 million years, so they are pros...

But realistically, the only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometerThink evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....

But without a hydrometer, then WAITING is the best answer as to when to secondary (again if you choose to, many these days don't and it has even been covered on Basic Brewing Radio and in Byo, the long primary/ no secondary shift in brewing consciousness.)

Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.

:mug:


First off I would like to thank you for posting in reply. I understand that you are giving tough love and I appreciate it. I read John Palmer's book (and other resources) and I must have misinterpreted what they had to say. I will need to read it again. I thought the 1-2-3 method was consistent enough to use it, but I will trust you for sure. I figured since the air lock was no longer bubbling it was done. I understand that this is not the case. I am patient and I was willing to wait the time, but I only did what I thought was right based on what I know, which is very little as move further along into this hobby. I was expecting to leave this in the secondary for two weeks and bottling it for 3 weeks before ever drinking it.

Plus, I am following an advice of one of my friends, which I am figuring out that he knows not as much as I thought.


So where do I go from here? Logically, I am thinking its going to take much longer now for it to finish because of the lack of substance yeast population to ferment what is left.


Any thoughts?
 
I think I made the same exact beer from the same kit as you. I seem to remember thinking the same thing, but the beer turned out just fine.

I wouldn't worry too much....

Wait until it is bottle conditioned and carbonated to judge.

Thank you for this reassurance on my first brew. Now I can RDWHA-Craft-B!
 
First off I would like to thank you for posting in reply. I understand that you are giving tough love and I appreciate it. I read John Palmer's book (and other resources) and I must have misinterpreted what they had to say. I will need to read it again. I thought the 1-2-3 method was consistent enough to use it, but I will trust you for sure. I figured since the air lock was no longer bubbling it was done. I understand that this is not the case. I am patient and I was willing to wait the time, but I only did what I thought was right based on what I know, which is very little as move further along into this hobby. I was expecting to leave this in the secondary for two weeks and bottling it for 3 weeks before ever drinking it.

Plus, I am following an advice of one of my friends, which I am figuring out that he knows not as much as I thought.


So where do I go from here? Logically, I am thinking its going to take much longer now for it to finish because of the lack of substance yeast population to ferment what is left.


Any thoughts?

What was the hydrometer reading?
 
Maida's right you really need a grav reading before we can really tell you what to do next. We need to know if the perceived "sweetness" is in line with the recipe, a result of too high of a gravity due to a stuck fermentation, or simply noobish panic at tasing green uncarbed beer. :D

And the hydrometer reading is the diagnostic tool we can best use to help you.
 
I learned that leason myself never to judge the taste straight out of the fermenter. When I recently made a belgian and tasted it after racking it into the bottling bucket I was fairly disapointed and found it to be very watery and bland. I was thinking it was just going to be a boring homebrew. So I bottled and let it Sit for 2 weeks and they still tasted fairly bland. They were carbonated decently but lacked any head what so ever. I thought the beer was a failure and started giving them away to my roomates because they'll basically drink anything with alcohol. I figured if it wasn't fully carbonated at 2 weeks then it wasn't gong to carbonate anymore. I was terribly wrong and learned an important lesson about patience myself. After getting back from an 8 day trip I cracked one open not expecting anything special and was blown away by the difference. Not saying it's the best beer I have ever had but it was pretty damn good! I'm still a noob but I know now not to be discouraged by the taste out of the fermenter... And not to give up my beers to soon to my roomates.
 
What was the hydrometer reading?

Dont have the best one in the world. Its for saltwater aquariums, but a hydrometer none the less. Its SG range is 1.010 to 1.030. I took a sample. The reading was 1.010 SG units.

Maida's right you really need a grav reading before we can really tell you what to do next. We need to know if the perceived "sweetness" is in line with the recipe, a result of too high of a gravity due to a stuck fermentation, or simply noobish panic at tasing green uncarbed beer. :D

And the hydrometer reading is the diagnostic tool we can best use to help you.

It does have a carb bite, but just not a lot and it souldnt at this stage. I've never tasted green beer (or atleast I never think I have) so I can not really determine what is what. I am too stupid to know anything. haha.

Or perhaps its not balance enough bitterness. I only boiled 2 ounces of hops. Hoppy beer is offensive to my taste. I had S. Nevada Pale Ale and I found thats really my limit on hop taste. So I figure that less is more for me in hop area. Maybe a dry hop will fix the taste?

And of course time heals all.
 
If your final gravity was under 1.010 I would say you should be fine and the beer is just a little green.

is there a hint of green apple in the taste/nose?

Bottle/keg it and leave it for as long as you can handle, then crack one open and give us the verdict! :)
 
If your final gravity was under 1.010 I would say you should be fine and the beer is just a little green.

is there a hint of green apple in the taste/nose?

Bottle/keg it and leave it for as long as you can handle, then crack one open and give us the verdict! :)

ahem! now you take a reading with the hydrometer. :drunk:

I did, its about 1.010 SG units. I have one, but I really dont trust what it has to say. Its not a beer purpose hydrometer. Its a saltwater aquarium hydrometer. haha


So, yeah. No cidery or apple tastes. Just maybe its not bitter enough. haha. Perhaps a dry hop? What hop?
 
dry hopping won't add bitterness, just aroma and maybe a hint of flavor. At what point in the boil did you add each type of hops? I don't think I saw you answer that question and that'll tell a lot.
 
dry hopping won't add bitterness, just aroma and maybe a hint of flavor. At what point in the boil did you add each type of hops? I don't think I saw you answer that question and that'll tell a lot.


Yeah I figured that. I boiled each for thirty minutes. I mean I guess I went a little light on the hops in retrospect. I've been reading and most recipes call for a lot more hops than what I had.

I do not like very hoppy beer. Just dont have the taste for it yet.



I am just going to cross my fingers and hope its just really really green beer and hope time will take the greenness out of it.



I also though of this cool way that I could add flavor without a boil. Its a little trick that I know from something else related to hops. I have built an apparatus that can "extract" oil from plant's oil glands. Its uses compressed butane. The butane is an excellent organic solvent for oils. Its far more efficient than water. When the extraction is finished, the butane has a low boiling temperature and evaporates away leaving just the oil. It sounds a bit strange, but if you have any knowledge of organic chemistry you'd agree with me. If fact, dry hopping is similar but less extreme. Im sure you know that when you add the hops to the beer that contains ethanol, the ethanol assists with stripping the hop compounds into the beer.

I know there are no original ideas anymore, so this sounds too good of an idea for it not to been done. Somebody has to have done this before?


What do you think?
 
What kind of yeast did you use? It very well could be done and you are tasting an uncarbonated beer, so yeah it will be "slightly" sweet.
 
What kind of yeast did you use? It very well could be done and you are tasting an uncarbonated beer, so yeah it will be "slightly" sweet.

Safale US-05 (dry) packaged by Fermentis.

I had a good 12 hour strong fermentation that went well into 36 hours. The air lock bubbled ever 2 seconds. Dropped off substantially. Had a tiny blow off. Just a little bit on the lid and airlock. Checked it on the 7th and 8th day and the air lock (three piece) no longer had pressure that would allow it to bubble. Temperature is/was 68-70 F.


Racked into the secondary. I can see some activity still today. Bubbles are rising to the top, but not enough to allow the air lock to bubble. I do have a small layer of trub (or yeast?) on the bottom that manage to find its way into the secondary from the primary. I did not leave much air space in the secondary. Its to the neck where some of the bubbles are collecting. No, I am not fearing a blow off as of right now. Not too much activity.



So thats what going on with it right now. I am leaving it alone.
 
Even if you don't like hops, you need the bittering hops to counteract the sweetness of the malt. I think this is the issue. 30 minutes might not be enough to balance the beer. Later additions give hop flavor and aroma. Earlier additions (start of a 60 minute boil) allow the flavor and aroma of those hops to boil away leaving just the underlying bitterness behind to counter the sweetness.

This is why people do multiple hop additions. The first one, at start of boil, are strictly for bitterness. Additions near the middle of the boil give flavor. Late additions give aroma to the beer. This way, you can use different hops for different additions. High ibu hops at the start for bitterness and then different hops for flavor and aroma depending on what you want.
 
Even if you don't like hops, you need the bittering hops to counteract the sweetness of the malt. I think this is the issue. 30 minutes might not be enough to balance the beer. Later additions give hop flavor and aroma. Earlier additions (start of a 60 minute boil) allow the flavor and aroma of those hops to boil away leaving just the underlying bitterness behind to counter the sweetness.

This is why people do multiple hop additions. The first one, at start of boil, are strictly for bitterness. Additions near the middle of the boil give flavor. Late additions give aroma to the beer. This way, you can use different hops for different additions. High ibu hops at the start for bitterness and then different hops for flavor and aroma depending on what you want.

thanks for the reply. I agree with you. I am not a hop head and I guess I figured less is more for me. I thought by adding less I would be getting the desired flavor but this is just a tough lesson right now. I need that, I need to understand what is bad and what is good.


So am I SOL? Just eat this **** sandwich and smile?
 
Nah. Once it's done and in the bottles and has time to condition I bet it won't be nearly as sweet as it tastes now. It'll be sweeter than you might want, but it should be drinkable. Let it ride and get going on your next batch, using what you've learned from this one. Brewing is a fluid thing. One batch leads you into the next and you take things along with you as you go.

Man... that sounds so Zen...
 
Nah. Once it's done and in the bottles and has time to condition I bet it won't be nearly as sweet as it tastes now. It'll be sweeter than you might want, but it should be drinkable. Let it ride and get going on your next batch, using what you've learned from this one. Brewing is a fluid thing. One batch leads you into the next and you take things along with you as you go.

Man... that sounds so Zen...



Lol zen is right. I like the consistency of inconsistency lol. well I guess I will do a dry hop just for the heck of it. just to see what it will do. I will run to the HBS tomorrow and see whats up.


Any favorite dry hops you would add?
 
I also though of this cool way that I could add flavor without a boil. Its a little trick that I know from something else related to hops. I have built an apparatus that can "extract" oil from plant's oil glands. Its uses compressed butane. The butane is an excellent organic solvent for oils. Its far more efficient than water. When the extraction is finished, the butane has a low boiling temperature and evaporates away leaving just the oil. It sounds a bit strange, but if you have any knowledge of organic chemistry you'd agree with me. If fact, dry hopping is similar but less extreme. Im sure you know that when you add the hops to the beer that contains ethanol, the ethanol assists with stripping the hop compounds into the beer.

I know there are no original ideas anymore, so this sounds too good of an idea for it not to been done. Somebody has to have done this before?

Check it out. I knew that there are no more original ideas. https://morebeer.com/view_product/7835/103693/IsoHop_Bitterness_Extract_1_oz

Judging by the name. They use Isopropyl alcohol to extract the hop oils/compounds from the hops and its suspended in ethanol.
 
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