So I got my score cards back today

[Kaiser]

And the judges were not to impresses with the Doppebock and the Dunkel. This is the Dunkel that Ray raved about at Glib's party. It was considered to dry for the style. The Bock was just considered run-of the mill. Both beers got around 30 points out of the 50. They actually liked the warmth (hint of higher alcohols) in the Bock. And this is one thing I definitely want to subdue even further. I think a well brewed Bock should not show significant higher alcohols.

Now I really have to go to Germany and load up my memory with the taste of these beer styles.

I guess I'll keep tuning the beers to match the taste that I have in mind and occasionally enter a competition. Maybe they do well maybe they don't. But what I really would love to do, is entering in a German homebrew competition. I think that this would give me the most valuable feedback.

Kai

 

[McKBrew]

At least you tried. Does it really matter what the judges think if you think it's an excellent beer? (I guess it does if you want to win competitions). I think the judging process for beer can be subjective and while one group of judges might review a beer one way, at another competition they could be scored differently.

Good Luck on your future entries.

 

[g_rath]

F*** the judges! Here is to just having the brass to enter in the first place.
Good luck on future beers.

 

[Kaiser]

F*** the judges! Here is to just having the brass to enter in the first place.
Good luck on future beers.

I wodn't choose such harsh words. I think they are doing their best and donating their free time for this. It's just by design that this is a subjective process.

Kai

 

[g_rath]

well alright. As long as you are ok with it. I have never been known to be gentle when I’m dealing with something that I don’t like/disagree with.

 

[eschatz]

i'm thinking about entering my first competition. i'm hoping to get some good feedback like yours. do all of the entries get a "scorecard" that they send to you, or just the best ones?

 

[sflcowboy78]

i'm thinking about entering my first competition. i'm hoping to get some good feedback like yours. do all of the entries get a "scorecard" that they send to you, or just the best ones?

good luck if you decide to enter. Yes all entries get a scorecard.

 

[AdIn]

It's just by design that this is a subjective process.

Kai

Could not agree more. It's funny, in the end of last year I brewed Octoberfest. And there was something wrong with it. I could not really say what exactly but it was really different beer compare to, say, Spaten example. So, in a hope for a good feedback I enter a hb competition and get a 1st place with this beer. The most valuable feedback was that my beer is a bit over carbonated and light in body for the style.
All I want to say is that you are the main juge for the beer you brew. But in the same time it worth it to have checked in competition from time to time.

 

[Reverend JC]

If you listen to Jamil's show on Bock he states that judges who look for alcohol warmth do not know what they are doing, well, it was close to that. a well made bock should not have noticible warmth.

 

[olllllo]

Kai:

Give this a read. It might provide some insight.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=59401

 

[Kaiser]

If you listen to Jamil's show on Bock he states that judges who look for alcohol warmth do not know what they are doing, well, it was close to that. a well made bock should not have noticible warmth.

And BTW, the Dunkel turned out to be Jamils recipe. 99% Munich, 1% Carafa with one 60 min hop additon. I wouldn't really call it his recipe since it is a pretty basic Dunkel recipe and this kind of recipe can easily be found with some research.

I do have to resist the urge to take this feedback serious. I just have to make sure I get to sample more commecial examples and get a clear understanding of what a good Dunkel tastes like and what the spectrum is. Once I have that knowledge I feel that I'm in a position where I can contact the Judge(s) and if they are not to offended, have a constructive discussion with them.

I wish my Schwarzbier would have been ready for that comp. For that I really feel that I hit the nail on the head based on my understading of how a Schwarzbier should taste like (as I had a few of them on my Germany trip) and I would not have accepted a score below the upper 30s.

Kai

 

[Kaiser]

Give this a read. It might provide some insight.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=59401

Thanks,

I don't want to be misunderstood here as I appreciate the work that the judges are doing for free and that the competition process has done a lot for home brewing in general. I don't think we would be breing as good of beers if it wasn't for many brewers who found the competitive aspect of the hobby and paved the way for improved procedures.

I just wanted to point out the subjective nature of competitions, which is already widely known and unavoidable.

Kai

 

[Rhoobarb]

Also, keep in mind that 30pts. is actually pretty good! According to the latest BJCP score sheet:

45-50: Outstanding - beers that are truly world-class.
38-44: Excellent - should be assigned to beers that are excellent representations of the style.
30-37: Very Good - should be assigned to good representations of the style that have only minor flaws.
21-29: Good - should be assigned to good representations of the style that have significant flaws.
14-20: Drinkable - should be assigned to beers that do not adequately represent the style because of serious flaws.
13 or less: Problem - should be assigned to beers that contain flaws that are so serious that the beer is rendered undrinkable.
Don't be so hard on yourself!

 

[olllllo]

Kai, I guess a better way to put it is that it affirms what you had said in an earlier post.

 

[zoebisch01]

Yeah that's always been my hangup with competitions in general. It's one thing to brew a flawed beer and that is usually fairly easy to spot. However, with the well defined styles you can run into trouble for a few reasons. One is that if their own personal history favors one style over another it's really hard for them to base their judgment on anything other than the guidelines and what their general knowledge of beer is.

I have been into tea lately and have made a few reviews on some of the kinds of teas in a style. I realized though that in my comparison process that in some styles I didn't really have the backbone to gauge the particular style very well because of my limited experience with the style. I was basing my judgment on what I knew about tea in general, my set of experiences with one kind from the style and what the guidelines for the tea style are.

This is a problem because when you aren't familiar with the nuances of a style it automatically defaults you to experiences outside that particular style. What I am getting at is a more fair judgment of say a Tripel would be coming from a panel that has had a lot of experience with Tripels and possibly drinks them regularly. I know, that's in an ideal world.

I remember the first time I tasted a 'Lambic', when I didn't know any better as I hadn't researched anything, hadn't looked at any definitions. It was a very sweet representation. I liked it, but what I didn't realize until further experiences is that it really only marginally (if at all) fits the style they sell it under.

At least it gives you a general idea of what they are looking for. It might not be what you are looking for though.

 

[dblvsn]

Don't get too disappointed by a 30. Thats actually "very good" In fact from what I've seen in competitions it takes an exceptional beer to score above a 40. Another thing to remember is the judges are reading the style guidelines as they are drinking your beer. As they read through the style if your beer has or doesn't have a certian charecteristic they will assign points accordingly. Brewing beers for competition is extremely tough and shouldn't be taken as a blow to the jaw if you get a score you're unhappy with. Take it as advice to change a thing here and there and brew it up with the changes to enter again next year. Any beer that scores above a 25 IMHO is a beer that is very worthy of drinking. Congrats!

 

[Kaiser]

Yes. Once you get into the Very Good range, it becomes very subjective for a judge to prefer one beer over another. There are no obvious flaws and the recipe is balanced for that style. Now the judges need to look for something THEY would like or not like. The days of winning by making the only non-infected beer are over. We all know how to brew very good beer. To make it an excellent beer we need to match someone else's expectations.

This is why I would be so much interested in getting my beers into German home brewing competitions. These judges have a palate that has been trained on the local styles. The same is true with Belgian and British beers. But homebrewing in Germany is not as oganized as it is here and competitions are not as abundant. The country is also much smaller too.
Kai

 

[the_bird]

That's too bad that your brews didn't score any higher.

I know that you've got a certain goal in mind when you're brewing, to match the best commercial examples you can find back in Germany. I wonder if some things didn't score as well because the judges were expecting beers that were more in line with American interpretations of the style? Like, the Dunkel; that's not a terribly common style in the states, but I wonder if the examples that the judges have had access to have tended to be a bit sweeter than what is commonly produced at the source?

Kinda related, maybe it's the proverbial "Jamilization"-effect; your focus seems to be on making an exceptional example of the style, moreso than pushing the boundaries of the style. Were they expecting the dunkel to be bigger, overall, and therefore have some more residual sweetness?

 

[carnevoodoo]

I made a saison that was "to style" and I got a 31 on the score card and one of the comments was, "it was probably difficult to get such a neutral example." I was actually brewing to the style, and I think it cost me. The judges will look for the guidelines of a style, but it needs to stand out in some way as well.

I just got a silver with a Belgian stout I made and I really think that it was because it was really something that was less common. I got good feedback from both.

I wouldn't take it as a slight to your beer. A good judge will see a lot of examples and while it is subjective, use it as constructive criticism. Next time, send the same beer to two comps, and see if there's a consensus. That way you can see if there's a pattern in what they say.

Then again, if you like the beer you're making, f the man and just make beer and forget the competitions.