So frustrated with my IPA's!

[gotbags-10]

I'm about to give up on them. I cannot make an IPA to save my life. Basic grain bills........2row,oats,a little carapils. I use bru'n water to estimate my mash ph and for adjusting my RO water. Mash at 152 and a 60 min boil. 4 oz citra at FO and 4 more at 165 degrees. Boil kettle covered. Whirlpool for 30 min and chill. I use buckets with a spigot for fermenters. Pitch either Us-05 or Conan. Whatever I have at the time. Temp is set at 62 ambient in the fridge. Ferment for a week then raise temp for Yeasties to clean up. I don't dry hop in fermenter because I don't want to open the lid and get o2. Add 4 oz hops in a paint strainer bag to my keg. Purge with co2 and do a closed transfer. Again trying to minimize O2. Swirl keg every morning to get good contact with hops. Cold crash on day 4 and carb. I feel like my process is solid but I barely get any hop flavor and aroma. Aroma is gone after just a couple of days and what little flavor I have falls fast as well. What could I possibly be doing wrong?!?!

 

[TravelingLight]

Man, I dunno what to tell you. I agree your process looks solid. I was having the same issues (hop nose fading too quickly) with my IPAs until I switched to a closed transfer and dry hop in the keg. And that improved my hoppy beers exponentially. Granted, I still dry hop in the carboy as well but also keg dry hop. Hopefully someone smarter than I am can offer some advice. I know how frustrating it can be.

 

[WrQth]

What's the resulting water profile numbers?

 

[gotbags-10]

What's the resulting water profile numbers?

It can vary ever so slightly from this depending on grain bill etc... But typically
Mash ph of 5.4 estimated
CA 100
NA 30
MG 15
Sulfate 75
Chloride 150

 

[Auger]

Not really specific to hop aroma, but why are you covering your boil kettle? Is it staying covered through the whole boil? Are you accounting for what must be a very low to no volume loss due to boil off?

 

[Redlantern]

I found a big shift in everything when I bypassed using hops in the boil and instead doing flameout and whirlpool almost exclusively. The brew seemed to leave something behind in terms of both flavor and aroma.

I found that using some of the same hops in the last 10 min of the boil that I use in the whirlpool or flameout additions are pretty helpful to that end.

Anyone else can add to this? It has only been a few batches, but the change in flavor, and aroma and the length of time it maintains flavor and aroma after bottling has changed.

 

[gotbags-10]

sorry meant the boil kettle is covered at the end of the boil when I do my FO and whirlpool additions to help keep aroma in.

 

[Citizen86]

Are you doing any bittering hops? Anything in the boil?

 

[Mexibilly]

I'd recommend more boils hops.
Bitter at 30 or 60.
10, 5, 0, steep/WP. Oz/gal dry hop.

 

[Biscuits]

I found a big shift in everything when I bypassed using hops in the boil and instead doing flameout and whirlpool almost exclusively. The brew seemed to leave something behind in terms of both flavor and aroma.

I found that using some of the same hops in the last 10 min of the boil that I use in the whirlpool or flameout additions are pretty helpful to that end.

Anyone else can add to this? It has only been a few batches, but the change in flavor, and aroma and the length of time it maintains flavor and aroma after bottling has changed.

There is a big shift in the way hops are being used in brewing. Alot of what we thought we knew is wrong. I just read a really great article discussing exactly what you've been doing, and why that is the way a lot of breweries are going these days. felt it might be relevant to this thread.

Article Here: http://allaboutbeer.com/article/hop-shift/

 

[tjmac5071]

Try a different yeast, something clean that will drop fast and then try to dry hop it after. I actually stopped cold crashing at all for fear of oxygen but I think it has helped the hop flavor and aroma stick around longer. I use wlp090 almost exclusively and I wait longer than most to put on tap, usually 3 weeks fermenter then keg. Although I rarely dry hop when I do, it is after 2 weeks and typically for a week, then keg and serve a couple days later

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I hate to be this guy...but I use regular water, no whirlpool, and I don't cover my kettle and the IPA"s turn out just fine. Maybe...just simplify your process some and don't over think it? Here one of my all time fav IPA recipes I use that work with my "bad habits" give it a try...

For 5.5 Gallons (20.82 L)
11.0 lb (4.99 kg) U.S. pale two-row malt
1.75 lb (0.79 kg) 10° L Munich malt
0.75 lb (340 g) 75° L crystal malt
Target Mash Temp: 150 for 60 mins
Do a 90 minute boil.
0.5 oz (14 g) Nugget pellets, 13% a.a. (60 min)
2.0 oz (28 g) Citra pellets, 12% a.a. (15 min)
1.5 oz (28 g) Mosaic pellets, 12% a.a. (15 min)
1.0 oz (28 g) Citra pellets, 12% a.a. (steep 10 min)
.5 oz (28 g) Mosaic pellets, 12% a.a. (steep 10 min)
Whirlfloc tablet (10 min)
White labs WLP001 California Ale yeast
Strike Water 4 1/2 gallons at 162 degrees


3 ounces of citra dry hop

Original Gravity: 1.066
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV: 7%
IBU: 60-66
SRM: 10

 

[tagz]

I would try doing the dryhop in primary without a bag. You're stringent efforts to limit o2 don't seem to be producing the results you want so maybe go back to the standard process. I would go with Chico over Conan for now as the peachy esters can cover up the hops and lead to a one dimensional product. Once you have your IPA process down, you can experiment with different strains. Also, you could try upping you're sulphate. I know higher chloride levels are all the rage with NEIPAs but I would double your sulfate to 150 if your having issues with a standard IPA. A 1:1 ratio should be a good place to start.

In any case, try a batch where you toss the hops in loose as fermentation is finishing. At the very least you can compare and decide for yourself.

 

[TheHairyHop]

What are the hops like in the bag after you pull them out? Are they compact? You may be only getting contact with the material on the outside of the glob.

Also, where are you buying your hops? How are they stored when you get them and after you've cracked them open? Which varieties are you using?

 

[Yooper]

It can vary ever so slightly from this depending on grain bill etc... But typically
Mash ph of 5.4 estimated
CA 100
NA 30
MG 15
Sulfate 75
Chloride 150

Reverse the sulfate and chloride, for sure. Or, reduce the chloride to 50 ppm or less and keep the sulfate at 150. A mash pH of 5.3 to 5.4 is ideal.

 

[lowtones84]

I agree with what a couple of others have said about some hops in the boil. I get that there's a shift to late hops, and there is a place for that. But in my experience hops in the boil are necessary for IPAs or any beer that is to supposed to have a strong hop character. Otherwise you get sort of what you're describing: a somewhat weak presence that fades quickly.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I agree with what a couple of others have said about some hops in the boil. I get that there's a shift to late hops, and there is a place for that. But in my experience hops in the boil are necessary for IPAs or any beer that is to supposed to have a strong hop character. Otherwise you get sort of what you're describing: a somewhat weak presence that fades quickly.

I couldn't disagree more. I have actually never brewed a beer with hop additions in the boil.
Fundamentally this cannot be true, otherwise all beer brewed in CO wouldn't be hoppy because their boiling temp is lower

 

[Yooper]

I couldn't disagree more. I have actually never brewed a beer with hop additions in the boil.
Fundamentally this cannot be true, otherwise all beer brewed in CO wouldn't be hoppy because their boiling temp is lower

You've never used hops in your boil? That's very unusual.

I think in order to get the firm bitterness that American IPAs are known for, a bittering charge works very well, and then I hop it up with late additions and whirlpool hops.

I do some beers where I "hopburst"- that is, add all hops late in the boil with 20 minutes or less, but many I do a more traditional IPA hopping schedule: 60/15/0/whirlpool/dryhop and I get great hops flavor and aroma.

 

[TheHairyHop]

You've never used hops in your boil? That's very unusual.

I think in order to get the firm bitterness that American IPAs are known for, a bittering charge works very well, and then I hop it up with late additions and whirlpool hops.

I do some beers where I "hopburst"- that is, add all hops late in the boil with 20 minutes or less, but many I do a more traditional IPA hopping schedule: 60/15/0/whirlpool/dryhop and I get great hops flavor and aroma.

Pardon. What I meant was I never put flavor hops in the boil. I'll throw a half ounce or so of warrior, magnum, etc in the beginning for bittering, but that's it. All other hops are after the wort is chilled below 180. That's not very unusual.

 

[Yooper]

Pardon. What I meant was I never put flavor hops in the boil. I'll throw a half ounce or so of warrior, magnum, etc in the beginning for bittering, but that's it. All other hops are after the wort is chilled below 180. That's not very unusual.

No, that is not unusual at all. Not adding any would be!

 

[TheHairyHop]

No, that is not unusual at all. Not adding any would be!

btw, one of my favorite IPA recipes is adding 2 lbs of base malt to your pale ale recipe. works really well with plenty of simcoe and cascade

 

[fourhb]

Reverse the sulfate and chloride, for sure. Or, reduce the chloride to 50 ppm or less and keep the sulfate at 150. A mash pH of 5.3 to 5.4 is ideal.

Agree with this. Sulfate to chloride ratio should be reversed.

 

[imasickboy]

What kind of IPA are you trying to make? A more "traditional" one, like has been done for the past 10-15 years that actually have hops in the boil? Or one of the newer "throw the whole hopyard in the kettle after flameout" types? Each is an entirely different approach to brewing, so knowing what you're trying to mimic would probably yield you more accurate answers.

 

[lowtones84]

Pardon. What I meant was I never put flavor hops in the boil. I'll throw a half ounce or so of warrior, magnum, etc in the beginning for bittering, but that's it. All other hops are after the wort is chilled below 180. That's not very unusual.

That's my point. From what I gathered from the OP they are not using any hops in the boil at all unless I misunderstood.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm about to give up on them. I cannot make an IPA to save my life. Basic grain bills........2row,oats,a little carapils. I use bru'n water to estimate my mash ph and for adjusting my RO water. Mash at 152 and a 60 min boil. 4 oz citra at FO and 4 more at 165 degrees. Boil kettle covered. Whirlpool for 30 min and chill. I use buckets with a spigot for fermenters. Pitch either Us-05 or Conan. Whatever I have at the time. Temp is set at 62 ambient in the fridge. Ferment for a week then raise temp for Yeasties to clean up. I don't dry hop in fermenter because I don't want to open the lid and get o2. Add 4 oz hops in a paint strainer bag to my keg. Purge with co2 and do a closed transfer. Again trying to minimize O2. Swirl keg every morning to get good contact with hops. Cold crash on day 4 and carb. I feel like my process is solid but I barely get any hop flavor and aroma. Aroma is gone after just a couple of days and what little flavor I have falls fast as well. What could I possibly be doing wrong?!?!

Tell us more about exactly how you purge your keg and do "closed transfer" (in excruciating detail please.) Doing these properly can be more involved than it would seem at first glance. If there are holes in your process, you can have much more O2 exposure than you would think.

Brew on

 

[WrQth]

It can vary ever so slightly from this depending on grain bill etc... But typically
Mash ph of 5.4 estimated
CA 100
NA 30
MG 15
Sulfate 75
Chloride 150

Yooper and fourhb beat me too it but I'd still like to say invert the sulfate/chloride numbers and bring the pH down a little.

The higher sulfate will accentuate the hops but will also give the perception of dry the more you add.

 

[Invertalon]

My best APA/IPA I just brewed and tapped this weekend is honestly one of the best APA's I have ever had, not just homebrew. My water was like SO4: 360ppm and Cl: 24ppm (huge ratio).

My dry hop was 6oz (I use 1oz per ABV of the final beer, which was 5.8%). I dry hop in the primary only, loose, no bag or anything. Then I keg and serve (no keg hopping).

Aroma is immense, you can smell it from the tap from a feet above lol

 

[Photopilot]

The definition of insanity is to repeat the same process over and over expecting different results. I also have problems with my IPAs. The evaporation rate inside my keg is much higher than any other of my beers.

If you don't like your IPAs time to change it up. You need more cowbell or in this case more hops. As you can see every one has a different approach to make your IPAs better. There is nothing wrong in your techniques that more hops can not cure. You could try one or all of these suggestions but you could also just add more hops. By more I mean different types, at different times along the brewing process. I like Citra but every since I brew an Arrogant Bastard Clone I have shied away from single hop beers. Maybe I just don't like Chinook hops but it has soured me from making another SMASH beer.

I think each hop will impart some bittering, flavor or aroma to your beer whether it is a different hop or added at different times. I am not sure some of the accronyms you are using but I do not see a 60 minute hop in there. Are you doing some version of FWH first wort hopping instead? The 60 minute addition is the backbone of my IPA. I usually add my main hop plus another high alpha acid hop to bring my IBUs to near target. Then more hops at different times along the boil. The one thing I see is you are missing the middle and end of the boil hops. Additions at 20-40 minutes will impart more flavor Additions at 0-15 minutes can add more aroma. Maybe you don't really like Citra, all that much, a different hop or add a variety of hops added to your IPA may make the difference.

I think there are very few flaws in making of an IPA that can be cured by a few ounces of hops added at the appropriate time.

 

[Stillraining]

I think there are very few flaws in making of an IPA that can be cured by a few ounces of hops added at the appropriate time.

^this....I'm no IPA guru but I find it hands down the absolute easiest style to brew ( Smash not included) All those hops hide all your mistakes.

 

[Redlantern]

FWIW -
My best results have been with about (a beersmith-calculated) 35 IBU from initial bittering charge at either 60 or FWH

Next is bringing it up to about 45-50 IBU with late boil additions (typically less than 10 min)

Finally is the whirlpool and dryhop. with four to five ounces in each stage.

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree with the "add boil hops" and reverse your S/Cl ratio crowds. For me the hop flavor of a good American IPA needs to have both bitterness and the juicy aroma from the whirlpool. Without both it is missing something, in the same way that a song without bass sounds all bright and tinny, but a song with only bass feels boring and rhythmic. I also think you may be overly focused on the wrong details (oxygen exposure) rather than perfecting the hop schedule first. No offense intended, but if the beer is crappy to begin with, making sure it has shelf-life isn't the priority.

One thing that might also help is adding a little sodium (like 1.5g NaCl). I've found that salt accentuates flavor in beer the same way it does in food, but you have to be careful with the amount.

 

[Nomofett]

Fid you read this?
Tips for the Infamous "super hoppy" IPA/IIPA https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=478357

And listen to this?
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/11/13/brewing-india-pale-ale-ipas-with-mitch-steele/

 

[catdaddy66]

There is a big shift in the way hops are being used in brewing. Alot of what we thought we knew is wrong. I just read a really great article discussing exactly what you've been doing, and why that is the way a lot of breweries are going these days. felt it might be relevant to this thread.

Article Here: http://allaboutbeer.com/article/hop-shift/

Great read! Thanks for posting.

 

[schematix]

As others have said:

You need bittering hops - totally agree. not saying you need 100 IBU, but throw in at least 0.5-1oz.
Water profile is lacking - i suggest you try brun'water pale ale profile. It has 300ppm sulfate. I find it much better than even 150ppm.

A few other things i'd mention:
1. Quantity of hops - i think you're on the low end for a really hoppy beer. I think you need 12-16oz spread across boil, late, KO and dry hop.
2. Dry hops - These have a huge aroma impact. I've experimented with a lot of IPAs without dry hops and they all were blah. If you're worried about O2 pickup, add then right at the end of fermentation so the O2 gets consumed by the yeast, but not so soon so that the CO2 scrubs out the hop aroma.
3. Keg purge - look up water purging a keg. you can't gas purge and get enough O2 out. It only takes a few ppm of O2 to degrade an IPA.

 

[doug293cz]

...

3. Keg purge - look up water purging a keg. you can't gas purge and get enough O2 out. It only takes a few ppm of O2 to degrade an IPA.

Actually, you can gas purge an empty keg adequately. But, you need to purge 13 times at 30 psi to get 0.11 ppm O2, and it will cost you about 2.2 lbs of CO2. A liquid purge costs about 0.11 lb of CO2. Do the liquid purge.

Brew on

 

[gotbags-10]

Yeah I only do the gas purge about 5 times at 30 psi. I will switch to the liquid/starsan purge. Also I'm going to take my FO hops and distribute during the boil. Going T try upping my sulfates as well. Brewing this weekend so will deff report back the differences.

 

[schematix]

Yeah I only do the gas purge about 5 times at 30 psi. I will switch to the liquid/starsan purge. Also I'm going to take my FO hops and distribute during the boil. Going T try upping my sulfates as well. Brewing this weekend so will deff report back the differences.

Huge waste of CO2. Water purging is a huge waste of water, but much cheaper.

When water purging a keg it is important to completely purge the keg of all air. This means filling to the rim, installing the lid, and then continuing to fill through the liquid dip tube with the pressure relief open and a gas QD attached. (Go Slow). Once you have water coming out of both, disconnect the gas QD, then shut off your supply water and then close the PRV. Alternately you could close the PRV and disconnect the water so long as you do them at nearly the same time. There is surprising amount of head space in a 'full keg'. Don't go through the efforts of a water purge and not use it to the full extent.

After the keg is full of water its time to purge. Start filling with CO2 and connect somethign to the liquid QD side. Either collect your starsan for further use or send it to the drain. For sake of time i like to run it at about 30 PSI for the first few minutes, then i'll ramp it down to about 10 to finish. You could go lower but it'll take longer to push the water out. Once the keg starts to sputter tilt it around for a few rotations to get as much water out as you can, then pull off the liquid QD. Wait a moment then pull off the gas QD.

If you are rackign under pressure you can use the remaining CO2 in the tank to purge your racking line! Vent most of the CO2 out through the PRV first. Then attach your racking cane to the liquid side - DO NOT DO THIS WHILE SUBMERGED IN THE BEER. Once almost all of the CO2 has pushed out, pull off the rackign cane from the liquid QD. Attach gas to the fermenter, insert the racking cane and apply a few psi of pressure (or whatever you like within your vessels limits). Once pressure is up, connect the gas QD back and the beer will star to flow. Open the PRV on the keg to allow back pressure to be relieved.

When the beer is almost done racking watch it carefully. The moment you see gas or trub getting sucked in rapidly close the PRV and pop the liquid disconnect off. Immediately pressurize the keg with 10+ pounds of CO2 to make sure it is sealed.

Done.

 

[Stillraining]

Wow! great tutorial, but I think I can bottle 5 gallons of beer in the same length of time..

 

[schematix]

Wow! great tutorial, but I think I can bottle 5 gallons of beer in the same length of time..

Perhaps, but you won't be transferring in oxygen free purged containers. Apples to oranges.



Not to mention you have to clean and sanitize 50 bottles.



Doing in bulk speeds things up too...

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1467163907.175335.jpg

 

[Stillraining]

Doing in bulk speeds things up too...ATTACH]360186[/ATTACH]

You'v got a LOT of money!