Small starters?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Hi, I am still pretty new to using liquid yeast, but have a few succesful starters under my belt.
I have a brew coming that will probably take place near the end of june and plan on using wlp005 for a 1.040 Best Bitter.
The freshest pack of yeast I could find in the LHBS had an expiring date at 24 august, so by the time I brew I will have around 67-70 Billions cells from calcs I did from info of the yeastman bacth QC site.
I need about 100 Billion cells for the and came up with the idea to make a really small starter and pitch the whole thing. Make a starter wort of 0.3 Liter and pitch they yeast in it 3 days before brew, I have no stirplate and use the shake method, it often take a little over 24h for my starters to begin a proper fermentation, sorta kinda like a vitality starter+. Is this a good Idea? I suppose there will be a little bit of fermentation still going on in it by the time I pitch so it should kick of rather fast in the bucket.

 

[schmurf]

This doesn't really answer your question but I thought I should post it anyway, it's an easy way to make a starter. Shaken-not-Stirred Yeast Starter (Illustrate Steps for the SNS Method)

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

That's basically the method I use. Shake it, add yeast and then swirl a couple of times per day until fermentation slows down, then cold crash it.
My though now was to make a really small starter because I don't need to cultivate it that much more, but the cell count as is in the package will be a bit too much of an underpitch to feel comfortable with. Let it start fermenting and then add the whole thing when there is still a little activity in it. Will such a small starter wort make any difference?

 

[schmurf]

I think it will be okay, it doesn't take much. I have sometimes made a starter with 3dl wort.

Regarding the SNS method, the key to it is the just shake once ... but shake to it's filled with foam. Pitch all of it after 12-24 hours.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'll have to try it, thanks for the link.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So if I get this method right, the idea is that cell count don't matter if you pitch the slurry when the yeast is at or very near peak activity, and that as long as you pitch highly active yeast it will replicate so fast it won't have time to produce off flavors even if it is much below the required starting cell count?
That sure seems handy to be able to get away with just a 3dl starter made the night before brewday and not having to cold crash, decant etc.

 

[fragged]

Personally I'd make a normal size (1-2 liter) starter and save some for later. If you're shaking, go with 2 liter. I'd save a 1/2 liter and pitch the rest most likely. If I was being lazy that day though(happens frequently), I'd be content with just saving some slurry from the 1.040 beer later, it's basically a big starter.

Though I use a stirplate, and recommend you do too. Made for $8 with an old pc fan, magnets, hot glue, an old charger (dc power supply) and some of the kids Legos to make a base. The $8 is for the stirbar lol.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Personally I'd make a normal size (1-2 liter) starter and save some for later. If you're shaking, go with 2 liter. I'd save a 1/2 liter and pitch the rest most likely. If I was being lazy that day though(happens frequently), I'd be content with just saving some slurry from the 1.040 beer later, it's basically a big starter.

Though I use a stirplate, and recommend you do too. Made for $8 with an old pc fan, magnets, hot glue, an old charger (dc power supply) and some of the kids Legos to make a base. The $8 is for the stirbar lol.

The thing is I make batches that are about 10.5 liter and 12.5 liter, pitching a 1L+ starter in there would dilute it too much. I've made "normal" starters at 1-1.5 L before, but used the swirling method and cold crash at least 24h before use and decant before pitching.
This method takes uptowards 5 days though and if I can make a .4L starter the night before and just pitch the whole thing at or just after peak fermentation it would simplify things a lot. Also I don't brew often enough or use liquid yeast all of that much so saving wort from brewdays for starter wort is not really feasible for me.
I'll try the SNS method with a 4dl wort and if it works I'll keep doing it, otherwise keep doing it the old fashioned way, will probably get a stirplate sometime in that case though.

 

[DBhomebrew]

This doesn't really answer your question but I thought I should post it anyway, it's an easy way to make a starter. Shaken-not-Stirred Yeast Starter (Illustrate Steps for the SNS Method)

Thanks for linking to this. I had come across SNS before, but it got lost in the great flood of new brewer's learning. I think it highly valuable to read the words of 'Sacc' himself, this link is at the bottom of the blog post you linked to. He gets into the whys as well as the hows.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/shaken-not-stirred-stir-plate-myth-buster
I recall another post of his that directly addresses the question of quality (and current state) vs quantity of pitched yeast. I'll have to find it over on the AHA forum. Something about nuclear bombs.

 

[fragged]

Realizing I never really addressed the question at hand.

Ya, nothing wrong with making a small starter and pitching the whole thing. I've built up plenty from bottle dregs, starting at around the .3 L you mentioned, or less. I don't decant at all anymore, regardless of starter size.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think his way of reasoning actually sounds logical, like when baking bread or using sourdough. The health and activity of the yeast/sourdough is way more important than the amount you use, I imagine it carries over to some extent to brewers yeast.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I recall another post of his that directly addresses the question of quality (and current state) vs quantity of pitched yeast. I'll have to find it over on the AHA forum. Something about nuclear bombs.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/yeast-cultures-are-nuclear-weapons

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I think his way of reasoning actually sounds logical, like when baking bread or using sourdough. The health and activity of the yeast/sourdough is way more important than the amount you use, I imagine it carries over to some extent to brewers yeast.

Many years ago I picked up a 1L flask and started to "make a starter" for my beers and had great luck doing that for years. I followed what I thought was the "proper" way to make a starter...made about 500ml of wort the night before, adding my yeast, then pitched the entire starter into my beer the next day. It worked great for many years!

At some point I started paying more attention to the yeast calculators and reading about people with 4L flasks using stir plates (several days ahead, then cold crashing). I could justify the cost of the equipment, but I seldom have a solid of a plan on what I am going to brew a week ahead of time. I never went that route.

The info from Saccharomyces really hit home with me and made me realize why I was having so much success with my "small starters." I have adapted my process over to closely match the SnS method (make about 32 oz of wort in a 1 gal jug that I shake for a solid minute to build up foam, pitch the yeast, then pitch the entire actively fermenting starter the next day). I might do something different if making a lager (which I pretty much never to) or if I am making a high gravity beer (I will either use a few packs of dry yeast or will pitch yeast harvested from another batch).

These days my strategies are mostly (in a rough order of preference and frequency) are:

• Direct pitching fresh (4 week or less) harvested yeast slurry without a starter
• Direct pitching a White Labs or Wyeast pack into a 2.5 gal batch without a starter
• Dry yeast without a starter
• SnS Starter (either with a new pack or older harvested yeast)

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Many years ago I picked up a 1L flask and started to "make a starter" for my beers and had great luck doing that for years. I followed what I thought was the "proper" way to make a starter...made about 500ml of wort the night before, adding my yeast, then pitched the entire starter into my beer the next day. It worked great for many years!

At some point I started paying more attention to the yeast calculators and reading about people with 4L flasks using stir plates (several days ahead, then cold crashing). I could justify the cost of the equipment, but I seldom have a solid of a plan on what I am going to brew a week ahead of time. I never went that route.

The info from Saccharomyces really hit home with me and made me realize why I was having so much success with my "small starters." I have adapted my process over to closely match the SnS method (make about 32 oz of wort in a 1 gal jug that I shake for a solid minute to build up foam, pitch the yeast, then pitch the entire actively fermenting starter the next day). I might do something different if making a lager (which I pretty much never to) or if I am making a high gravity beer (I will either use a few packs of dry yeast or will pitch yeast harvested from another batch).

These days my strategies are mostly (in a rough order of preference and frequency) are:

• Direct pitching fresh (4 week or less) harvested yeast slurry without a starter
• Direct pitching a White Labs or Wyeast pack into a 2.5 gal batch without a starter
• Dry yeast without a starter
• SnS Starter (either with a new pack or older harvested yeast)

Direct pitching is not really an option for me since my LHBS don't have enough turn around for me to be able to get super fresh yeast packs + I usually plan my brews a couple brews ahead since I live a fair bit out of town and can't visit it so often, so my purepitch packs are usually a few months old when it is time to brew. But I'll try the SNS method the next brew with a WLP005 that will be about 4 months old by then(kept in the fridge ofc) and a 4dl vitality/activity starter, if it works well I will keep using that method. Might start doing 1L starters when we move up north to a bigger house and I will likely start making some bigger(~20L) batches for kegging.
Or do you direct pitch for smaller batches even if the yeast has been sitting for a while? Atleast the WLP yeasts with their slower degradation should have longer shelf life when it comes to the yeast health aswell, but I am not knowledged enough in this subject to really make an assertion.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Or do you direct pitch for smaller batches even if the yeast has been sitting for a while?

I am usually only direct pitching a pack into a 2.5 gal batch (10L). Generally if I am wondering if I should make a starter (older yeast pack, questionable storage/shipping, higher gravity, cold fermentation, etc.) the answer is almost always "yes, I should make a starter!" I am curious about Imperial's larger packs.

I try to aim for a starter volume around 5% of my wort. So 32 oz for a 5-gal batch, or 1L for a 20L batch. I think I have seen up to 10% mentioned, but that feel like a lot of starter wort to add to a batch.

I am also planning to play around more with dry yeast this year. I like the idea of direct pitching a $4-$6 pack and not messing with yeast starters or harvesting/storing yeast.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I am curious about Imperial's larger packs.

At 200b cells, it's a double pack.

It's only one data point, but I pitched a ~30day pack of Pub (1968/002) into 3.6gal 1.040 and had healthy activity in eight hours.

Subsequently, I harvested the cake into 1c jars which each settled into 1/2c of very thick cake. Each of those become a direct pitch into another batch. 2nd gen were a dry hopped strong bitter then another 1.040 best bitter to harvest again. I now have a strong ale finishing fermentation with 3rd gen slurry.

This Friday I'm expecting a pack of Tartan (1728/028). First, a direct pitch into an 80/- to build a harvest. Then a wee heavy or two for Christmas.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I am usually only direct pitching a pack into a 2.5 gal batch (10L). Generally if I am wondering if I should make a starter (older yeast pack, questionable storage/shipping, higher gravity, cold fermentation, etc.) the answer is almost always "yes, I should make a starter!" I am curious about Imperial's larger packs.

I try to aim for a starter volume around 5% of my wort. So 32 oz for a 5-gal batch, or 1L for a 20L batch. I think I have seen up to 10% mentioned, but that feel like a lot of starter wort to add to a batch.

I am also planning to play around more with dry yeast this year. I like the idea of direct pitching a $4-$6 pack and not messing with yeast starters or harvesting/storing yeast.

That dosage seems like the way I plan to do it. 4dl starter for a 12.5L batch.

 

[twd000]

anyone else having success or otherwise with the "shaken not stirred" starter method?

thinking about building up a simple yeast bank by keeping my favorite dry yeast strains on hand, rather than jars of slurry in various stages of decomposition.

Draw off 1 liter of wort on brewday - pitch in a gram of dry yeast (~10 B cells) and shake it up. Keep it warm on a seedling heat mat for 12-18 hours, then pitch the whole lot into the main batch of wort at high krausen.

I'll get a lot more mileage out of a package of yeast, and have plenty of variety on hand for split-batch comparisons on 10-gallon brew days.