Simple SSVR-controlled e-BIAB rig

[lafolielapper]

....and heres the kettle combo to go with the new panel. Thanks again pogden! You da man!

 

[SpottedDogBrewing]

I couldn't find the cell phone picture of the wiring diagram I had on my whiteboard, so I whomped this up in Visio in case anyone's interested. A PDF version is attached as well.

I would not not have known where to start on this without all of the freely-shared knowledge from people on HBT. Thanks to P-J in particular, who's wiring diagrams made things very clear, and of course Kal, who started me thinking about going electric in the first place.

Will this Contactor work?
Packard C230B 2 Pole 30 Amp Contactor 120 Volt Coil Contactor by Packard http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001KGSJ74/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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[iijakii]

Yup.

 

[SpottedDogBrewing]

Yup.

Thanks


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[jhobson]

Forgive my ignorance on the 120V contactor, but the wiring diagram shows a 240V contactor. I used a 40A 240V contactor from Auber. Wouldn't the use of a 120V contactor need to be wired differently than the wiring diagram above in order to function as intended? Wouldn't you need to run 120V to the coil rather than the 240V as shown in the diagram? I'm not an electrician but I did try to understand the logic of the electrical circuitry before building my panel. I'm not sure I understand how the 120V contactor would be used.

 

[Brumateur]

Yes, 120v contactor requires slightly different wiring. The simplest way to adopt that schematic is to disconnect fuse from L1 and connect it to neutral wire.
Also you need to connect red wire from voltmeter to T1 instead of coil.

 

[lafolielapper]

Thanks again for all your help. I posted my completed build in the thread last week. I have yet to fire it up, but hope to do so here when the weather gets a little warmer up here. Something that I totally passed over when reading your thread before was when you did the collection of pictures showing the voltage and amperage relationship with the various settings of the pot. It seems like your readings are violating Ohms law, as I was always under the impression that with a simple resistive circuit like we have, that with a fixed resistance (lets say 8.8Ohms for a 5500W element), that an increase in voltage also means an increase in current. Your meter seems to indicate that voltage and amperage is inversely proportional.

Could you explain that to me, as it's making my head hurt. Thanks!

 

[pogden]

Thanks again for all your help. I posted my completed build in the thread last week. I have yet to fire it up, but hope to do so here when the weather gets a little warmer up here. Something that I totally passed over when reading your thread before was when you did the collection of pictures showing the voltage and amperage relationship with the various settings of the pot. It seems like your readings are violating Ohms law, as I was always under the impression that with a simple resistive circuit like we have, that with a fixed resistance (lets say 8.8Ohms for a 5500W element), that an increase in voltage also means an increase in current. Your meter seems to indicate that voltage and amperage is inversely proportional.

Could you explain that to me, as it's making my head hurt. Thanks!

First, congratulations on the build - it looks great. I'm glad I was able to be of some help.

Regarding the question of Ohm's Law, I didn't even think of that. I think the answer is that the voltmeter in my controller is connected *before* the output of the SSVR - so, it's seeing the the mains voltage, not the regulated voltage.

If we were measuring the regulated voltage, I'm still not certain that Ohm's Law would apply because this really isn't a simple resistive circuit. My understanding is that the SSVR regulates the average voltage in the circuit by chopping the AC sign wave according to the setting of the rheostat.

I am not an electrical engineer, so I'm sure one of the many EE's on this forum will either correct me or provide a better answer.

 

[Brumateur]

Yes you need to have voltmeter connectedafterSSVR abd also you need true RMS volt and amp meters.
Regular volr/amp meters measure average rectified value adjusted to show RMS value only for sin wave form. When SSVR chopes waves regular sregular meters show substantially skewed reading.

 

[Brumateur]

deleted.

 

[lafolielapper]

I guess what I was referring to was your chart on page 6, post #56. It seems that this inverse relationship was expected, although it doesn't seem to make sense to me. I know enough about electrical engineering just to get myself into trouble, but I was under the impression that this is just a simple resistive circuit. Voltage source, Element (Load), and Ground. To me, voltage and current should be directly related since the resistance is constant.

Please be nice in response to my ignorance. LOL!

 

[Brumateur]

If you interested how the Ohm law works for AC circuits and about measurements - read this www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_1/3.html

 

[lafolielapper]

So i plugged in my control panel today, pushed the led pushbutton switch....and BLAM, the ammeter flashed and went dark! Looks like I fried the meter. Can anyone tell me what I might have done wrong? My only guess is that I wired the power supply lines in place where the coil leads should have been. Secondly, now my switch has an LED light on no matter if the button is off or on (depressed or fully up). Any thoughts?

 

[lafolielapper]

So I figured out what I did wrong from my post above with my meter...apparently I'm not the only one that wired in my AC input to my coil....derp. Damn Chinese wire colors. In any case, I checked my wiring for my switch, but it still looks like it lighting up and never going off.

 

[Brumateur]

How did you wire the switch?

 

[lafolielapper]

Like this. I'm fairly certain I did it correctly. I just looked at his pics and followed the schematics.

 

[jhobson]

The volt/ohm meter that I received was different that the one pictured. The wire leads and the harness connectors were reversed. However, the PCB was labeled correctly and in english if I recall correctly.

 

[lafolielapper]

Ok now I'm really lost. I just went back and looked at how pogden had done it, and the way I wired it up originally is the same way that he shows in his pictures, which I am including below. I'm fairly confident that I have the exact same amp meter, and the little green terminal on the meter says "AC Input". That being said, wouldn't that be the supply voltage, and the current being measured should go to the red and black wires?

 

[jhobson]

My recollection is that you have it backwards in the questions that you pose in the image. I think the reason for the confusion is that the terminal screws and the molex connectors are reversed between the two versions of the volt/ohm meter. The wire locations are the same between the two units but for some reason the connector types changed.

 

[lafolielapper]

Furthermore, he's a wiring diagram for the meter. So what gives pogden...why didn't your blow up. It seems to me like you are pumping 220V into a tiny current reading circuit on that meter, hence why mine blew up.

 

[jhobson]

On the unit pogden has the terminal screws get connected to the shunt and the molex connector wires get AC voltage. On the more recent units the opposite appears to be true. Look closely at the picture you posted and the picture from pogden and you can see the connectors soldered to the PCB are reversed. If this were not true, one of you would have installed the meter upside down.

 

[lafolielapper]

Gotcha....but with regard to my led switch...what would have caused it to come on and stay on? Did frying the meter somehow short out my switch too?

 

[jhobson]

Have you pulled the meter from your circuit/wiring? I wouldn't leave a device that's been shorted in place or reconnect it.

 

[lafolielapper]

Luckily I bought two meters in anticipation of frying one and not wanting to wait two weeks for another one to fly over here from China, so I wired it up with the 220V input going to the green connector, and the CT going to the molex connector, which is the way it should be. I'm just worried that my switch might be messed up now too. The light should only come on when depressed correct?

 

[jhobson]

The LED on the SW1 should only come on when the switch is in the "on" position. I doubt you fried the switch. From what I can tell the switch is mechanical and only makes a physical connection when the button is depressed. I can't see anything in your picture to tell how the switch is wired.

 

[Brumateur]

o I wired it up with the 220V input going to the green connector, and the CT going to the molex connector, which is the way it should be. I

UPD:

Could you post a big picture of your voltmeter?

 

[lafolielapper]

The above picture is a close up of how I ORIGINALLY wired up my meter when I fried it. It's not wired up exactly the opposite, with the 220V lines coming from the contactor going to the green terminal, and the inductive coil leads going to the molex connector (the red and black wires on the meter)

The second pic is how I wired the switch, whioch is how it still is wired following my "incident". Can anyone tell me if those connections looks appropriate? I followed pogdens pics and schematics to a T. Thanks guys!

 

[lafolielapper]

Here is directly from the Auber page for the switch...

"This maintained contact push-button switch can be used to control the power of controller, a contactor, or a small power load (<10A at 240VAC). It contains two sets of normally open contacts (N. O.). The current rating is 10A at 240VAC. The illumination can be configured by user so that it will be either on when the button is pressed in, or always on. The voltage rating for the illumination is for 240VAC. However, it works fine for 120VAC with hardly any noticeable light intensity changes. Five colors are offered, red, blue, green, yellow and white. "


So apparently I may have set it for always on....but I followed exactly like pogden did...so how did I pull that off?

 

[lafolielapper]

This wiring diagram for LED light on when the circuit is closed looks nothing like what pogden has for his. Can someone clarify?

 

[Carlscan26]

Are you sure he has the exact same switch as you do?


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[lafolielapper]

I sure hope so, I bought the exact same model number that posted on his parts list directly from Auber Instruments....SW1...it's 2NO LED Switch.

 

[jhobson]

I think the difference is that in the wiring example for this build only one of the two hot legs is being run through the switch. The typical wiring diagram for the SW1 shows both hot legs being switched. My understanding is that one of the hot legs is always connected to the contactor, but since it needs 220 to operate nothing is "on" until the switch connection is made.

 

[lafolielapper]

So in pogdens diagram, one hot leg is attached to the LED of the switch, and the other hot leg is being pigtailed from the closed connection side to the other end of the LED. I assume that when the gate is closed, the LEd lights up, but isnt the connection reversed? Shouldn't the red be coming in the left side and the black be going out to the contactor, or does it really matter since its 240V? You note that only one leg is hooked up to the switch, but in reality, both legs are hooked up for the LED, just one leg for the actual switching portion though. Is that a correct assumption?

 

[jhobson]

In the diagram the black leg is not being switched. The black leg is always hot to one leg of the LED. The red leg is hot coming off the contactor, run through a fuse, and into one side of the switch. Once the switch is in the "on" position, the red leg is run to both the other leg of the LED and the coil of the contactor (labeled C2 in the diagram). Try to think of the LED as something completely independent of the switch. You could potentially wire the red leg from L1 of the contactor (and remove the jumper from the switch) to the LED and it would be always on.

I'm not an electrician and only have a basic understanding of how all this works. Since you're dealing with 220V, you may want an electrician to review your wiring before plugging anything back into live current.

 

[lafolielapper]

I understand that the black leg is always hot, but I guess concerning the way pogden has it in his diagram, doesn't the black lead connect to the red jumper line and complete the circuit regardless of the switch position?

This is what happened to me, to clarify. I plugged in my control box to my 50A spa panel and flipped on the breaker. No lights, no humming, that's what I expect. Then I pushed the LED switch and the meter blew up and the LED light came on for the switch. Knowing that I just blew my meter, I pressed the LEd switch button again, but the contractor kept on humming and the LED light stayed on. This is why I am so confused. The circuit was open, but after pushing the switch once it seems to be infinitely closed. Any thoughts.

 

[jhobson]

The jumper line is only hot when the switch is in the on position. Assuming your switch is in the off position, take a multimeter and you should be able to reflect no continuity between the fuse side of the switch and the jumper running up to the LED (i.e. it's open). If you do have continuity, something is likely up with your contactor.

The LED "completes" the circuit no more than the element does. I wouldn't think of the LED as a physical connection of the wire from one side to the other.

 

[lafolielapper]

You say something would be up with my contactor, but I assume you mean switch correct, or the contactor in the switch? Not the large contactor though right?

 

[jhobson]

Either the switch or the contactor is letting the red hot leg through to the red leg side of the LED. You should be able to test each component to determine if one or the other is letting current through.

My understanding of the LED in the SW1 is that it will work with 110V, but I think you'd need one side of it to be hooked up to your neutral/ground for the LED to remain lit.

 

[lafolielapper]

My worry without being home to actually verify this is that when I applied power to the circuit and pressed the switch, the contactor closed but despite the switch dropping a leg from opening the switch, the contactor remained closed. Can a 240V coil stay closed if only 1 leg is remaining in contact. I've never really used contactors before. 240V troubleshooting is a little out of my league. 120V and DC applications are no problem, but this is just Greek to me.

 

[wottaguy]

This wiring diagram for LED light on when the circuit is closed looks nothing like what pogden has for his. Can someone clarify?

View attachment 192028

OK..I have been toiling about the problems that others have run in to concerning this build and have just completed my test of it successfully...however with a change on how the switch is wired. I'm using 240v 30 amp dryer plug to power this panel.

Here's how I wired the SW1 240v switch which is the recommended way that Auber states:

The POWER IN poles are labeled on the switch as numbers 13 and 23 and the load side (power out) is labeled as 14 and 24. An easy way to remember this is IN=3 / OUT=4. Also the X2 pole for the LED is on the power OUT side below pole number 14, and the X1 pole is on the POWER IN side below number 23 pole. My power in wires are connected to the secondary terminals on the power in side of the contactor (below the main power IN lugs) and are run to poles 13 and 23. On the other side of the switch, I wired poles 14 and 24 directly to the contactor coil terminals. (We're trying to energize the contactor coils which require 240v)! :cross:

Now to get the LED to work right....On the power out side I added a wire to pole #14 and ran the opposite end to pole # X2 (which is below pole #14. On the INPUT side, I ran a wire from pole #X1 (below pole # 23) to connect with pole #24 on the output side.

I hope this is clear enough, but if not feel free to contact me! The diagram that the OP posted may have included either a previous model of the switch or is using 120v to activate the switch. Please make sure that you have ordered the SW1 switch rated for 240 volts as that is what I am using for my build.

lafolielapper...I believe that you shorted out the switch and that the switch's contacts are "welded" closed..hence your LED light is on all the time. The way I viewed pogden's version of the switch wiring is that it looked to me that if running a 240v circuit if would fry the switch...which I think it did in your case. I actually had mine wired exactly the same way as you did but I realized through your efforts that a change had to be made and I consulted Auber for the switch details and ended up being a successful test for me today!!