Simple One PID Control Panel Questions

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JJWP

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ok, so I know this info must be out there somewhere, but after weeks of reading the forums and also reading through the Kal instructions end to end, my head is spinning, and I'm not finding quite what I'm looking for. Hoping someone can help me out and get me started on the right track to building a (relatively) affordable and safe simple electric build.

I'm planning on going the the spa panel route in the basement. I have existing 30a 240v dryer hookup to run off of. I plan to convert my HLT and BK into 5500W electric using Kal's directions exactly.

For my panel, I cannot afford doing anything close to the full Kal route. For the most part, those panels seemed to be mostly filled with "nice to haves", not "need to haves"? The timers and lights and meters are all really cool, but they don't seem to be really required, right?

All I really want is the ability to have one PID control my elements, one at a time. My pump I am totally fine with just controlling separately, as it is already wired up for 120V and has a switch installed. Why do so many people wire their pumps into their control panels anyways? Is it just convenience?

Equipment I already have:
- 3 converted keggles - HLT, MLT, BK. All have (or will soon have) weldless ball valves, analog temp gauges, recirculating ports at top, sight gauges. MLT has a homemade slotted copper manifold for filtering. BK has a bottom pick up dip tube off the ball valve.
- one March 309 pump, bronze head. Built into a toolbox with 120V switch wired into it
- 40 plate chiller, inline analog thermometer
- all fittings are camlock QDs

Planned Brew Day Steps:
1. Fill HLT with strike volume, bring to strike temp (accounting for next step heat losses)
2. pump strike water into empty covered and insulated MLT.
3. Mash in
4. refill HLT with sparge volume -bring to mash temp and activate HERMs to maintain mash temp
5. raise HLT/HERMs temp to mashout
6. Switch hoses and drain mash to BK
7. flip PID controller switch to control BK and begin heating first runnings to boil (maybe dial to ~200F)
8. switch hoses and pump sparge water into MLT
9. recirculate for ten minutes, then pump second runnings to BK
10. bring to boil

I may go ahead and build a two tier stand so I can fly sparge, but not sold on that idea, I've been quite happy with single infusion batch sparges for years now, and have never really played the efficiency game - sparge method doesn't really impact the electrical planning I think...

My primary question for you all: what is the best way to run two 5500w elements (only one ever on at a time obviously, due to electric service limitations) off of one PID? Is it possible to have:
- both elements plugged into a control panel
- control panel has one PID, and controlling HLT or BK is switchable between this PID via a manual switch
- what do I use to throttle boil so that it doesn't go nuts?


Any advice much appreciated! I've attached a quick drawing of how I envision this being roughly laid out. Thoughts? Obvious drawbacks? What am I missing here? Thanks!

Control Panel Mockup.png
 
Yes, you could easily do what you have described. You could use a PID and SSR to control output to two contactors which in turn control the output to two outlets. Then use a three way switch (HLT - off- BK) to control the contactors.
The simplest and cheapest way to do it is to build your control panel with one outlet for the element to be controlled. When you are using the HLT, plug in the HLT. When you are using the boil kettle, plug in the boil kettle. Your temp probe (thermocouple or RTD) will be hooked to your HLT. It is not needed for the boil kettle.
Regardless of the route you take, make sure you buy a PID that has a manual mode to control the boil kettle (you can set the percent power to give you the desired boil).
 
I did some searching on-line and the closest thing I can find to what you want is something like this. But even this one won't work because it has no way to switch between mashing and brewing.
http://goo.gl/9RH2C9
 
Thanks for the quick replies guys.

Kenh - Yeah, it looks like that wont work for me. Or, I'd need two of them anyways..

stevehaun - have you seen any plans for something like what I describe? I am good at following directions, not so good and drawing them up myself from scratch. This is my first time working with PIDS/SSRs/etc

Is there anything out there that can serve as a (close enough) guide for what I'm trying to do?

Thanks!
 
In this configuration i'm guessing that you're still going to need two SSR's and two thermocouples or RTD's. Another Auber 2362 PID is $43 bucks and you'll save a few bucks on the switch.
 
The most bare bones setup is as Steve described. You could buy a 30a DPST switch, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...ch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941#.UpD3r5Uo61s, run the incoming power through it, put both a 10awg and a 14awg on one of the hot load terminals of the switch, run one of the 10awg hots through the SSR to the element, run the other 10awg hot and ground to the element, put an inline fast-blow fuse in the 14awg line to protect your PID (you could go smaller than 14awg depending upon the fuse), and wire your PID and probe as normal. You would also need a small project box, heat sink, and whatever connectors you want to use for main power in and element power out.

That's probably the cheapest way to do it, as far as I can tell. When you flip your switch on, your PID is powered and so might be your element, so I would be sure to cover the element with liquid before turning it on, or make sure your PID is set to not heat before you turn it off, or better yet, both.
 
This is awesome guys, thanks so much for the help.

I looked through all of the P-J diagrams, and if I'm reading correctly (and that cannot be assumed ha) the second diagram in that thread - labeled "5500 2 Element 30a EStop PID" is the closest to what I am planning, is that correct?

It does show 2 pumps wired to it. I hadn't planned on wiring my (1) pump into this, but I suppose I could if it doesn't add too much cost. Is there any real benefit to doing so? Pump is already wired and switched (toolbox build) for 110v.

As far as going with two PIDs instead of one, if it is only a matter of another 50 dollars or so and that would save me the need to swap power cords with wet hands mid brew day, sure I could go for that.

A couple more questions:
1. First, am I looking at the right diagram?
2. Is an e-stop (I presume this means Emergency stop?) really necessary? Couldn't one just as easily pull the plug at the spa panel if there was a need for a quick shutdown? What kinds of emergencies are people running into that require an e-stop?
3. Are the lights and buzzers really necessary? If not, would it make it noticeably cheaper to build without them? Or, are they pretty cheap to add? I'd think seeing the PID readouts on would be enough to indicate that juice is flowing?
4. Is the main power keyed On/Off really necessary, or can I bare bones without it? I'm not going to leave this panel plugged in when I'm not brewing - I'll be running an extension cord from the panel to the spa outlet powered receptacle on brew days (my basement set up sort of requires that)
5. If my existing wire run to the dryer receptacle is the older 3 wire type, and I plan to plug a 50a Home Depot Spa panel into that - anything I need to know about properly grounding?

New mockup image attached - am I on the right track as to how the basically works?

Thanks!

Control Panel Mockup (2 PIDS).png
 
Yes sir - although there are two temperature probes which are also wired up to the PID's which you do not show.

My Answers:

#2 - Yes, you could do that. I'm not a fan of tripping a GFCI (As I've written elsewhere) as an "Emergency Stop" I dont have a big red mushroom on my control, just a simple on/off switch to shut everything down.

#3 - Some lights are nice, use your own discretion, but lots of lights are just bling. I have no lights on mine but wouldnt mind a light on the pump circuit (Hard to hear it run). There are output lights on the PID that should show the elements firing. Remember, you can always wire lights in later.

#4 - See #2 - An main on/off switch is nice, it helps by turning off all the loads before you unplug the system. If you turn them off manually, that's probably OK too.

#5 - I believe that the spa panel will need a four wire - Hot/Hot/Neutral/Ground. Just change the receptacle, I'll bet there's a ground wire in the box. Three wire receptacles are Hot/Hot/Neutral I believe.
 
1. You don't need to wire your pump into the control panel but it won't cost you much to do so.
2. I don't see any advantage to having 2 PIDs - Just switch between controlling the HLT and BK. No wet hands on power cords required. Just flip a switch.
3. You are looking at the right diagram
4. IMO, an E-stop is a necessary safety device and doesn't add much expense.
5. You don't need lights and buzzers. I like indicator lights for when the elements are on. Again - not a big expense.
6. Main on/off switch not mandatory. I ran my brewery for several years without it. I added it later. It is easy to add if you already have an E-stop.
7. You need to know how to properly wire your spa panel. PJ has a good write up on it.
 
I've done just what you described.

One PID. One SSR. Two Contactors to switch elements. But I have just one temp probe that is left in the HLT. For the boil I set the target temp way above what the HLT temp is until BK reaches a boil. Then I lower target temp to just about HLT temp and set it in manual mode and it keeps a rolling boil.
I based my panel on one of those PJ diagrams and when I get home I can get you more info if you like.

My panel was a scrap one from my Father-In-laws shop but I liked it because it was Razorback Red!!!

image-138841507.jpg
 
cank - I'll take all the info I can get! Much appreciated!

Step one for me is to figure out the basic items to purchase list - you guys have got me almost there I think. Once i have everything in hand and laid out, I think the wiring diagrams will stop looking like hieroglyphics and more like something I can actually do..

Many thanks all
 
JJWP,

I took some time this morning to make a diagram for you that fits your desired needs a little closer.
I've included the key switch as you originally stated.

As always click on the image to see and save a fullscale diagram for your build.



I hope this helps you.

P-J
 
Ok...

Another deal. How about an Excel spread sheet with most of the parts called out for the panel build. This might help in planning your system so I figured I'd post it for you. The sheet calls out the majority of the specific parts involved in the wiring diagram.

As always - Click on the image to see the full Excel spread sheet. You can save it to your PC for reference.
The sheet is protected (No security Coding) so that you can use the "Tab/Back Tab" keys to navigate the form.
The Vendor & URL columns are links to the vendor and the specific part listed.
(If you wish to add items, you can do that as well.)







Page 2 (GFCI Panel) of the sheet shows different wiring plans for Spa Panel wiring set up's.

I hope this helps.

P-J
 
P-J, you rock man, thanks so much!!

Now last night I started to really think hard about how and where I should be wiring in the spa panel.. I have sort of a strange set up I think, let me explain:

The house we just purchased (our first) has what seems to me to be some none typical wiring - we have two breaker panels, 100a each. Though of course the realtors claimed that everything was "recently brought up to code" and it passed inspection. Who knows..

Here's what we've got:
The original part of the structure - built 1959 - consists of a Living Room, Family Room, Kitchen, Dining Room, Two Bathrooms, and 4 Bedrooms, plus a bonus room half basement with laundry room (its a split level). In the half basement there is a 100amp panel with the following breakers installed:
(left side)
20a -Dining Room
20a - Living Room
20a - Basement
20a - Furnace
20a - Kitchen
20a - Garage
(right side)
15a - Basement
20a - Bedroom
20a - Second Floor (not sure what they mean here)
30a - AC
40a - unlabeled - no idea what this is for, nor did the electrician that came out to look

Now, sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, an addition was built off the back of the house consisting of a large family room + office + bathroom. This addition ALSO has a 100amp panel in it. This panel is directly opposite (through the wall) the electric meter outside, so I presume it is the "main" and the basement panel is operating a sub panel off of it. I haven't flipped the main breakers in either panel yet to confirm, but will if you guys think I should.

Here's where it gets interesting:
The 30 amp dryer breaker powering the dryer in my laundry room - it is in the upstairs family room panel and the wire run is probably 125 feet or so through the crawlspace to the opposite end of the house. This is in spite of the basement panel being significantly closer to the dryer (laundry room is in basement remember). I'm assuming they did this because the old 100amp original panel must have been tripping when running the dryer?

Here are the breaker contents of the upstairs (presumed Main) panel:
20a - Family Room + Bathroom
20a - Office
30a - Dryer

Now, I plan to brew with this electric rig literally right next to the basement breaker panel. I have good high windows for ventilation, access to hot and cold water down there, a sink, etc.

My options for GFCI protection would seem to be:
1. Run spa panel off of existing 3 wire dryer outlet (which is powered by main panel at other end of the house). Dryer outlet is 25 feet or so from planned brew station (opposite ends of basement)
2. add a GFCI breaker + 240v receptacle directly to the panel in the basement. I was quoted $275 by an electrician for that option
3. Run spa panel off mystery 40 amp breaker in basement panel?
4. some sort of inline GFCI?

Thoughts on what I should do? As with (hopefully) all guys embarking on the electrical adventure, I just want me and the family to be safe.

Thanks for your patience and help!
 
whoa P-J - I just saw your post with the parts list (we must have cross-posted). That is awesome and a huge time saver - Can't say thank you enough. Let me know how to buy you a beer!

If anyone has any ideas on my wiring/panel set up challenges, let me know.

Time to start ordering some stuff....

Thanks all
 
My options for GFCI protection would seem to be:
1. Run spa panel off of existing 3 wire dryer outlet (which is powered by main panel at other end of the house). Dryer outlet is 25 feet or so from planned brew station (opposite ends of basement)
Click to expand...
I would simply make up a power cord for your brew rig that plugs into the dryer outlet. 25' of wire is not so hard to do. It would only be used during a brew session anyway. You would be using a 3 wire cable and it should not cost much. That gets you to the Spa Panel. Also page 2 of the spread sheet shows how you would wire the spa panel to provide the power to your controller.

I think you are good to go.

P-J
 
JJWP,

I did a whoops on the controller panel. You don't need the large panel I called out. I think you can save a few dollars by using this one:

Auber Project Box for 1/16 DIN Controller

Edit: Also, I would strongly recommend that you mount the SSR heat sink (the one I listed) on the outside of the control box (not inside as illustrated in the link). The easiest would be to mount it through the top.

P-J
 
P-J said:
JJWP,

I did a whoops on the controller panel. You don't need the large panel I called out. I think you can save a few dollars by using this one:

Auber Project Box for 1/16 DIN Controller

Edit: Also, I would strongly recommend that you mount the SSR heat sink (the one I listed) on the outside of the control box (not inside as illustrated in the link). The easiest would be to mount it through the top.

P-J
Click to expand...

Roger, copy that
 
Bobby_M said:
If you're already putting a PID in the control panel that has a manual mode, there is absolutely no need for a stand alone VSSR and knob.
Click to expand...

If you have a stand alone VSSR, there's absolutely no need for the PID as my post stated. I'd rather have manual control on my BK than mess with automatic control.
 
atoughram said:
If you have a stand alone VSSR, there's absolutely no need for the PID as my post stated. I'd rather have manual control on my BK than mess with automatic control.
Click to expand...

On the other hand - the PID called out in this thread is an Auber Instruments SYL-2352 PID. It has a manual mode built into it. No need to throw additional dollars into something already accounted for and handled.

The PID is needed and in place to control mash temps. It is then used in manual mode to control the boil intensity.

Done deal.
 
atoughram said:
If you have a stand alone VSSR, there's absolutely no need for the PID as my post stated. I'd rather have manual control on my BK than mess with automatic control.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be argumentative but the OP already stated that the project is going to have an electric HLT and BK. He'll already need the PID for the HLT so it's highly practical to switch over to allowing the BK element to be driven off the SSR and switch the PID to manual mode for boil control.

I'm not saying you need a PID for a boil kettle only, but if you already have a PID like the Auber 2352, the VSSR is an additional spend that isn't required.
 
Bobby_M said:
I'm not trying to be argumentative but the OP already stated that the project is going to have an electric HLT and BK. He'll already need the PID for the HLT so it's highly practical to switch over to allowing the BK element to be driven off the SSR and switch the PID to manual mode for boil control.

I'm not saying you need a PID for a boil kettle only, but if you already have a PID like the Auber 2352, the VSSR is an additional spend that isn't required.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.... I thought the OP talked about getting a 2nd PID for the BK since it was inexpensive. I now realize we are still talking about a single PID system, and yes, you are correct - you dont need it if you already have the Auber and dont mind swapping plugs around.

My point was that it isnt that much more expensive for the 2nd PID - but on the BK, the VSSR is much easier to use instead of a 2nd PID and cheaper yet.

I'll be adding a 2nd PID for my HLT this winter (Be prepared for an order Bobby ;) ) but in my case, I want to have the ability to do multiple brews, so I can have the BK on propane boiling, while mashing with the RIMS and heating sparge water in the HLT. :ban:

I have two burners but only one propane tank... I'd like to set-and-forget the HLT - maybe have a light illuminate when it's up to temp.
 
I use a PWM circuit and a SSR for my brew kettle. The last thing I want to do is fiddle with PID programming when facing a boil-over when all I have to do is turn down the knob!
 
kenh said:
I use a PWM circuit and a SSR for my brew kettle. The last thing I want to do is fiddle with PID programming when facing a boil-over when all I have to do is turn down the knob!
Click to expand...
It is all about knowledge.

To each their own. Please do it your way. (I know you will - but- I had to say it anyway)

P-J
 
kenh said:
I use a PWM circuit and a SSR for my brew kettle. The last thing I want to do is fiddle with PID programming when facing a boil-over when all I have to do is turn down the knob!
Click to expand...

(Edit: Assuming you're talking about a PID without manual mode? One of the nice things about the Auber PID is that it has a dedicated button for toggling between auto and manual mode)

There's not any 'programming' or digging through menus with the Auber PID, just down and up buttons during the boil. It's nice to have the digital read out on the percentage of power being delivered. A knob is a little easier to operate, but given the above I don't feel it really adds much. If I'm really close to a boil over I just switch it off.
 
Question for you guys:

In P-J's parts list, the PID, SSR, Temp Probe, and Heat sink make up a large chunk of the cost at about $130.

I just came across this on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-PID...-WITH-HEATSINK-AND-PT-100-PROBE-/261286976034

Could this work (I know that it is a 25a SSR, not 40 - but that is still just enough right?) Or, is there something totally different about this unit?

It would save me about $80 if it works. Thoughts?
 
kenh said:
I use a PWM circuit and a SSR for my brew kettle. The last thing I want to do is fiddle with PID programming when facing a boil-over when all I have to do is turn down the knob!
Click to expand...

If you ever had the opportunity to use a PID with manual mode, you'd notice that pressing the down arrow a couple times to reduce the duty cycle is not exactly "programming" in an annoying way. If you're about to boil over, I think flipping the "element off" switch is the appropriate measure anyway.
 
I think this is the one I went off of:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/list-pj-electrical-diagrams-382286/#post4796166

This was my first attempt at an electrical setup and meant to be temporary until I get a Raspberry Pi system up and going. I'm planning on using StrangeBrew Elsinore but until then I need to perfect my process.

I used a dpst toggle switch to turn on the PID. This switch was also wired into a 120v light. In hind-sight I probably didn't need this but would have liked a visual indicator for which element was on instead.

I used a dpdt 120v 10 amp toggle switch to switch between elements. This switch sends 120v to the coils of either of the contactors.
Both of these from Radio Shack

I am cheap so I used the Switchcraft connectors for the elements a 4 wall prong outlet. I like them and they have worked good so far.

I used a computer CPU heat sink that I had laying around and it has a fan mounted to it but I have not used that yet (my SSR hasn't gotten too hot).

My PID is the Omega Micromega that I bought used from this site for 35 shipped I think. The manual mode is a little tricky to get to so I would suggest the AuberIns one everyone else uses.
Opto 22 SSR from here also.

I had planned on using three temperature sensors and drilled three holes but I am only using one right now. I got it used from here too. It is an Auber Ins probe and I like it.

Contactors I got from local electrical supply store. Just make sure you get 120v Coils. 24V are more common for heat and air I think.

Terminal blocks were from Home Depot I believe. So was all my wire connectors (these added up).

I used a combination of stranded and solid wire from scrap.

Fast blow fuse and fuse holder also from Radio Shack.

My box is 8"W x 10"H x 6"D and I don't think I could fit anything else in there.

For my Kettle connections I used the Stilldragon TriClamp but you might check out some of the other options. Don't get me wrong I am happy with my choice but more options are available so take advantage of that.

Hope some of this helps. The wealth of knowledge on here is amazing, as you can tell from all of the responses you have received. Just make sure you fully understand what is happening in your panel and you'll be good.

Let me know if you have any other specific questions about my build and I'll do my best to answer them.

P.S. Don't hurt me too bad for my wiring. I still gotta clean up all the wires that go to the parts on the front panel and even make a longer wire harness for the temp probe because I can't open it all the way unless I disconnect it from the PID. :eek:

IMG_4102.JPG


IMG_4103.JPG


IMG_4104.JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JJWP...After spending a few hours reading about what seems to be an endless amount of options for my electric controller build, I came to the exact conclusion you did about on what I really wanted vs needed to control my next set-up. I thought a BCS what the cats meow, but the longer I sweat having to spend the $$$, the more I realized I didn't need all that bling to brew great beer.

I'm stepping away from gas and can't wait for my kettle order to get here in July/August so that I can finally put all of this awesome info into practice. Thanks to you for starting the mirroring thread of what I would have posted (I'm also a great direction follower, but can't for the life of me put this stuff together on my own) and thanks to everyone who contributed their time and knowledge as well.

Any updates on your build? Love to see some pics of the panel if you have any "in progress" shots. I'm planning on replicating this exactly and I'm more of a visual learner so anything that shows placement and connections in the actual control box would be awesome when you get to that point
 
thomasjr16 said:
I'm planning on replicating this exactly and I'm more of a visual learner so anything that shows placement and connections in the actual control box would be awesome when you get to that point
Click to expand...



Nothing against JJWP's build, but check this build out, it's very similar and there's a lot of good info. I'm also wanting to build a basic/simple single PID controller and have used both of these threads for ideas. Good luck!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/suggestions-controller-249400/index2.html#post2998542
 

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