simple control panel

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mendozer

mendozer

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I am thinking of going into electric brewing as it's more cost efficient. I want a simple control panel:

two elements, on/off switches for each, that's it.

Pump is DC so not needed. I have thermometers and eyes so I don't need electronic controls and alarms.


How simple is this to make and has anyone made one (cost?)?
 
First - it is possible to save money by going to electric, but I think the majority of the folks on this board would agree that the initial startup cost will out shine any savings down the line. Time savings, trips to refill propane savings, and cool-factor savings - yes. But financially - probably not that viable. You could build a SUPER simple panel, but even then it may be a while until you see a savings.

Two elements - both in the BK, or one for a HERMS? You say you don't mind the concept of watching a thermometer, but take the time to think about what that really means - your element will either be running 100% or 0%. If you're trying to maintain a mash temperature - you'll be sitting there switching the thing on and off repeatedly, chasing your tail trying to hold a temperature. If you're boiling, and the element is of a higher-power variety, you're going to have a VERY vigorous boil.

For the relatively cheap price of a PID or PWM, why not cut out all of that headache and thermometer watching?

If you're set on going with the cheapest electric option possible and you don't care about watching temperatures and controlling the elemnts yourself, why not just get two elements and plugs, and then plug them in / unplug them repeatedly? You'll save the cost of the switch and the housing for the switch and you'll get the same end result.
 
Mash temp isn't an issue, I use a cooler and it holds for 90 minutes.

One would be for BK one for HLT. I suppose I could add a PWM to the circuit to control the element's output more carefully. Also, I do 5 gallon batches so maybe even a 120 V element would work yes?

I don't currently have a 220 outlet anyways, so I'd have to make one from the breaker box. I have a (15 or 20) amp outlet for 120V. I could throw two elements into each pot to improve heating abilities. In that case I'd want four switches so 2 can bring to boil and one can maintain it.

I suppose a PID is cheap enough, then I don't need therms on my pots.

Also, will it matter that I have a 15 gallon keg? Will that affect my heating abilities for an element. I thought about cutting it down.
 
and since you mentioned cost, how long would it take to offset? I brew every other month usually, unless I'm making some for a big party. The reason I'm considering the switch is cheaper operating cost for one, but simplicity of never needing gas again.

Currently I have one gas burner, 2 pots, cooler.My BK is my large 40 qt pot outside on the burner while I heat sparge water on the stove in a smaller 16 qt pot. I want to have everything on a brew cart in my garage. So technically it's not too late to go with gas. But with no gas line in my garage, it's going to be via propane tanks.

It would be cheaper to get another burner for sure right now, but how much cheaper?

one good burner (maybe two b/c my burner sucks)
vs
elements and control panel for either low wattage 220V or high wattage 120V.
 
What batch size?
What power source?

Many people are using a single 120v element for 2-3 gallon batches and 2x 120v elements for 5+ gallon batches. This requires 2x 120v @20amps GFCI circuits.

Adding the 220v @30amps power source could be a significant additional cost depending on where you want to brew. If you want to brew in the garage next to the main panel you could get a $50 spa panel w/ GFCI, add a breaker in the main panel, and the wiring. If you end up using a single 4-5kWatt element @ 220v you will need some way to control power to the element during the boil. Full power will be a raging boil.
 
I use two 120v elements in a 12.25g BK and do 9.25g batches. Been doing this for a year now. I have ZERO control panels, just a duplex outlet box with two switched outlets (20A) and each goes to a dedicated 20A breaker in my house's panel box.

Elements are less than $20 shipped each. The locknut and o-ring are cheap from bargainfittings. If you can operate a drill, you can install them. Extension cordage, some PVC couplers, pipe, and end-caps, done. Easily under $100 for two elements installed.

What expensive startup costs?
 
is there a PWM on those BK elements? or you just turn one off once you're boiling.

What kind of wiring does that entail? My dad knows his electricicty well so I guess I'd have to wait until he comes up to do this.
 
Electricity here is dirt dirt dirt cheap. We used electric heaters to supplement our fuel oil heat this past winter.. cut our fuel oil costs in half and barely bumped the electric bill.

Brewing with propane, I could get maybe 3 5-gallon batches per tank.. $25 a pop to refill (plus the initial expenditure of the first full tank). Add to that the cost of the burners and the fact that I have to brew outside or in the garage.

Electricity... Not electrically inclined? Get a ready-made CP. Plug and play. There are several vendors in the forum. Got a buddy who's an electrician? Does he like beer? There's your sub-panel and wiring job.

The cost per batch for me will be negligible. I probably won't spend $25 in electricity all year, brewing a couple times a month. Okay, so the initial outlay for the CP (and/or components) is tough, but I've been slowly amassing the things I need over the past year.. that's eased that pain a little.

And there is the fact that I'll be able to brew year-round in a climate-controlled area... no more freezing my nards off or getting rained on.


Electricity is certainly a very viable option to go if you choose to.
 
mendozer said:
is there a PWM on those BK elements? or you just turn one off once you're boiling.

What kind of wiring does that entail? My dad knows his electricicty well so I guess I'd have to wait until he comes up to do this.
Click to expand...

no PWM. The boil is perfect, even in my tight headspace. I'm using 3150 watts between the two elements.

You want to make sure you have dedicated circuits in the house, that nothing else is using while you brew. I have one that was for an old water softener that's no longer in use, the other is for the washing machine, which I unplug while brewing. I essentially have two long heavy-duty extension cords going to these two outlets, and that feeds my two switched outlets. Ideally I'd just extend the wiring and have fixed outlets "hard wired" to the panel. Your dad sounds like he can help there. If you have room, just make two new breakers and dedicate them to your elements.

If you're going to use a traditional mash tun, ie. cooler or insulated vessel of some sort and not recirculate, you don't need any controls other than on/off for the elements. I look at it as just another method of heating, as opposed to a stove or a propane burner.

Wiring the elements is easy. Two wires and a ground (ground it to the kettle).
 
Say your startup cost is $100, just for a round number. There was a SERIOUS discussion on cost for propane vs. cost for Electric HERE that is a good read, but bottom line was that people got a range of values, and the best value I took from the whole thing was that, per 5gal batch, you could save $2.10 going electric, so let's round to $2 for easy math.

$2 in savings per batch, with $100 startup cost (ignoring the time / effort to build) means you'd break even at 50 batches. Given that you brew every other month, that's 100 months, or just over 8 years to recoup the cost of building your system.

Thus I maintain, if cost savings is your only motivating factor for getting into electric brewing, then it's not really worth it.

Not trying to turn you off from the idea - I love my electric setup. Just being straight forward with the given criteria / design intent you stated at the beginning.
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
Say your startup cost is $100, just for a round number. There was a SERIOUS discussion on cost for propane vs. cost for Electric HERE that is a good read, but bottom line was that people got a range of values, and the best value I took from the whole thing was that, per 5gal batch, you could save $2.10 going electric, so let's round to $2 for easy math.

$2 in savings per batch, with $100 startup cost (ignoring the time / effort to build) means you'd break even at 50 batches. Given that you brew every other month, that's 100 months, or just over 8 years to recoup the cost of building your system.

Thus I maintain, if cost savings is your only motivating factor for getting into electric brewing, then it's not really worth it.

Not trying to turn you off from the idea - I love my electric setup. Just being straight forward with the given criteria / design intent you stated at the beginning.
Click to expand...

This is assuming the propane or NG setup was free? Burners, regulators, tanks, lines, etc. cost money, too.

I think the startup costs are negligible unless you already have a NG stove that kicks ass AND fits your pot. I was barely able to boil water for a 5g batch on my electric stove.

Plus as mentioned, for propane there's auto fuel costs, depreciation traveling to refill tanks, if applicable. Also, brewing indoors when it's -12* outside has some value vs. using the turkey burner on the porch, slipping on the ice and breaking your arse.
 
tre9er said:
This is assuming the propane or NG setup was free? Burners, regulators, tanks, lines, etc. cost money, too.
Click to expand...

Being that mendozer states that they currently brew every other month, I made the assumption that they already had all the equipment to brew propane, NG, or on a stove. That cost is already sunk - granted, you could sell some of it to recoupe the cost of the electric setup, but by no means all.

tre9er said:
Also, brewing indoors when it's -12* outside has some value vs. using the turkey burner on the porch, slipping on the ice and breaking your arse.
Click to expand...

No doubt, and I agree - one of the reasons why I have my brewery indoors and electric. But mendozer didn't say that weather was a factor. The opening line in the first post states "I am thinking of going into electric brewing as it's more cost efficient." - My point is to debate that cost efficency is the reason to go into this.

If mendozer says "screw the cost efficency, I just want an electric brewery so I can brew inside, while watching TV in my PJs" or anything else like that... perfect!

To use a parallel - some people think motorcycles are a smart investment because they get great fuel economy, and would be a big cost savings. But then there's the cost of the bike, and the increased maintenance, and how quickly you go through tires and chains, and the oils and lubricants, and the training and helmets and safety gear, and the insurance... Reality is - you're never going to save money by buying a motorcycle, so don't fool yourself. Now riding because you love the idea of riding and all the other things that come with it - there's the real reason to do it. Just like electric brewing.

-Kevin
 
I suppose it all depends. As you mentioned, if he's trying to switch from one method to another, batch sizes equal, then he's doubling startup costs. If he's planning on a move up from 5g to 10+g batches and he wouldn't have been able to boil with his current setup, then perhaps going electric makes fiscal sense seeing as how upgrading his heating situation was required anyway.

I agree that I decided electric for the indoor aspect. I brewed outside exactly twice, and running back in for this and that since I have about 400sq. ft of "brewery" downstairs in the basement was a PITA. That and lugging stuff up/down the stairs, etc. It was like going on a trip outside to brew then packing up and commuting back home. Why travel AND brew when I can just do it all where I already have my stuff, PLUS climate control?!?

So maybe if you factor-in mental health treatment cost, potential medical costs due to injuries transporting stuff longer distances, etc...On the spreadsheet it might, MIGHT not make dollars, but overall I think it makes sense. (see what I did there?!?!)
 
tre9er said:
So maybe if you factor-in mental health treatment cost, potential medical costs due to injuries transporting stuff longer distances, etc...On the spreadsheet it might, MIGHT not make dollars, but overall I think it makes sense. (see what I did there?!?!)
Click to expand...

There is zero cost savings in homebrewing. We all know this. Not even including the startup costs for the brewery (including associated fermenting, kegging/bottling, dispensing, blah blah blah)... It costs me less to just buy a couple cases of Smithwick's than it is to brew an Irish Red Ale at home.

The difference: I made it. My friends and family can sit at my bar, drinking and enjoying my beer, and be AMAZED that I can make the greatest beer in the world.

If I was concerned about money and savings and all that, I'd drink nothing but Coors Light. And I certainly wouldn't share it with my friends and family.

So yeah.. converting over to electric has been a financial drain. I haven't even brewed in a friggin' YEAR because every dollar I'd spend on ingredients could be a dollar towards the electric brewery. But to me, it's going to be MORE than worth it... brewing inside (brewing year-round!).. pinpoint control on temps.. constant consistency.. bigger batches (moving up to 10 gallon batches).. NO MORE LIFTING BOILING HOT WORT.

Yeah. Sign me up. That to me is what makes the hole that I throw dollars into make sense. (I did it too.. lol)
 
So, mendozer - now that we've all waxed poetically about the fine points of brewing and accounting - where do you see your brewery going? Do you want to get it as cheap as possible? Do you want the lowest cost option to still get some of the notable benefits of electric brewing (temperature control for one)? Have you decided it's not worth it? Or maybe that you'll do like brewmcq (and me) and save up your funds to build the ultimate one-and-done brewery? Whatever way you go, the fine people of the HBT Electric Brewing world can help.

-Kevin
 
While I agree with the the main benefit of electric brewing is the ability to bring it indoors full time, you cannot discount the need to exhaust the moisture. There is a cost associated there. Secondarily, I think it's silly to run a manual control on something like an HLT element when even the most inexpensive PID/controller + SSR will be a set and forget mission and a huge bonus.
 
tre9er said:
You want to make sure you have dedicated circuits in the house, that nothing else is using while you brew. I have one that was for an old water softener that's no longer in use, the other is for the washing machine, which I unplug while brewing. I essentially have two long heavy-duty extension cords going to these two outlets, and that feeds my two switched outlets. Ideally I'd just extend the wiring and have fixed outlets "hard wired" to the panel. Your dad sounds like he can help there. If you have room, just make two new breakers and dedicate them to your elements.

Wiring the elements is easy. Two wires and a ground (ground it to the kettle).
Click to expand...

yeah whether I do 120 or 220, I'm going to tap right into the breaker panel in my garage. I'll just use extension cords from my CP to the outlets. So you have two 1600 W elements in the BK? Why not just one 3500 W?
 
I'll have to plan more to see exactly how much this will run. I need to find a DIY simple panel to look at. Kal's and others are sweet, but I don't understand half of that stuff.
 
Bobby_M said:
While I agree with the the main benefit of electric brewing is the ability to bring it indoors full time, you cannot discount the need to exhaust the moisture. There is a cost associated there. Secondarily, I think it's silly to run a manual control on something like an HLT element when even the most inexpensive PID/controller + SSR will be a set and forget mission and a huge bonus.
Click to expand...

It's manual brewing, just like stove-top or propane, I just use electric elements for heat. I don't understand why it can't be this simple...? It has worked well for me for a year now. Again, one guy turns on the stove and watches his thermometer, another fires up the burner and watches his thermometer, I flip two light switches and watch my thermometer. I'm no different than them, just using a different heating source.
 
mendozer said:
yeah whether I do 120 or 220, I'm going to tap right into the breaker panel in my garage. I'll just use extension cords from my CP to the outlets. So you have two 1600 W elements in the BK? Why not just one 3500 W?
Click to expand...

Because of the price of copper. For me to buy the 6 or 8 ga. wiring to run 220v from my box to where my brewery is, it would have cost me a lot more than running two extension cords to existing 120v outlets. It works for me because I can use the outlets for other things when I'm not brewing.
 
tre9er said:
Because of the price of copper. For me to buy the 6 or 8 ga. wiring to run 220v from my box to where my brewery is, it would have cost me a lot more than running two extension cords to existing 120v outlets. It works for me because I can use the outlets for other things when I'm not brewing.
Click to expand...

10ga should be plenty big enough.
 
brewmcq said:
10ga should be plenty big enough.
Click to expand...

I'm pushing closer to 10g batches, despite only having a 12.25g BK. Yeah, I boil close, but Fermcap-S hasn't let me down yet. I just learned not to bag my hops...the hard way.

If/when I upgrade to an even larger batch size (read: when I source a sanke or even larger pot for dirt-cheap) I will have to look at more voltage. I may still use my dual 110/120v kettle as the HLT at that point though. I don't want to have all these pots with two giant holes, one small hole in them sitting around doing nothing (I already have a 8g aluminum pot doing that right now...).
 
What I'm saying is that given the fixed costs of setting up the electric system (elements, cables, switch box, switches), automating the temp hold feature is very minimal. Hell, you could even argue that a PID display takes away the need to spend on a separate thermometer unless it's already a sunk cost.

If you compare this to brewing with gas (either variety), automation to a simple temp hold is hardly simple (to do it safely).

By all means, use a switch and watch the thermometer. You could cheat half way by using a thermometer like the CDN DTTC that has a temp alarm too.
 
Bobby_M said:
What I'm saying is that given the fixed costs of setting up the electric system (elements, cables, switch box, switches), automating the temp hold feature is very minimal. Hell, you could even argue that a PID display takes away the need to spend on a separate thermometer unless it's already a sunk cost.

If you compare this to brewing with gas (either variety), automation to a simple temp hold is hardly simple (to do it safely).

By all means, use a switch and watch the thermometer. You could cheat half way by using a thermometer like the CDN DTTC that has a temp alarm too.
Click to expand...

I should also mention that I don't shoot for an exact strike temp in my HLT. I rack to the MLT when it reaches about 180, then let it settle down a bit there for 5-10 minutes to "pre-heat" the tun. Then I start stirring it down to strike and/or add a few ice cubes before doughing-in.

Never had much luck with trying to hit HLT temp dead-on. Racking and tun temp always affected things to the point where I'd end up low, which is a huge problem compared to being high. Beta amylase doesn't denature very quickly, and adding ice is easier than raising the temp in a non-direct-fired mash.
 
mendozer said:
I'll have to plan more to see exactly how much this will run. I need to find a DIY simple panel to look at. Kal's and others are sweet, but I don't understand half of that stuff.
Click to expand...
Mine is pretty simple:
https://picasaweb.google.com/107792868001472962528/Brewery

It's a PID controller in a box, with a SSR to control power to the element. Big lighted pushbutton switch is really optional; any switch would work. Main power relay is also optional, but recommended. This will control a single heating element--I'm using a 5.5 kw element ($23 from Amazon), but any other element would work. I've got somewhere around $200 in the control panel and temp sensor. My build is loosely based on this instructable:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-brewing-system/

I think my build does a few things nicer than the instructable, but it gives a walkthrough while mine only has pictures (at least for now).
 
Bobby_M said:
By all means, use a switch and watch the thermometer. You could cheat half way by using a thermometer like the CDN DTTC that has a temp alarm too.
Click to expand...

Yup, K.I.S.S. I like being present so a PID won't be necessary for shutting things off, but I just need to calculate what's needed to maintain boiling, etc. Because I typically brew 5 gallons, but occasionally team up with a friend to do 10s, my element selection is tricky.
 
I made a....sad....diagram of what I'm looking for. I used the image from BadNews and modified it, sloppily.

VS5aC.jpg
 
oh and for what it's worth My utilities are:

Gas $.39 per Therm delivery charge and cost is $.56 per Therm.
Electricity $.089 per kwh.

Whatever that means in terms of comparisons.
 
tre9er said:
It's manual brewing, just like stove-top or propane, I just use electric elements for heat. I don't understand why it can't be this simple...? It has worked well for me for a year now. Again, one guy turns on the stove and watches his thermometer, another fires up the burner and watches his thermometer, I flip two light switches and watch my thermometer. I'm no different than them, just using a different heating source.
Click to expand...

Unless your stove only has an "ON" and "OFF" feature, then it's nowhere near the same. When I brewed on a stove, and then when I upgraded to a dedicated propane burner - both had the option to throttle the amount of heat being applied via the entire range of ON or OFF. Using a switch and an element, your options are just that - ON or OFF. This may work fine for you, but you can't claim there's no difference.
 
mendozer said:
Where else are you guys getting your electrical components so I can price it out?
Click to expand...

AuberIns.com, Mouser.com, Amazon.com, mcmaster.com, ebrewsupply.com, and Radio Shack... I did a lot of shopping around when I got stuff, to try and find the exact component I wanted at the right price. Once you develop your idea a bit more - which will come from reading a lot more of what other people built and deciding what is important to you and not - you'll be able to narrow down the parts you want, and people can give you suggestions on where to get them.

Also noticed in your drawing (if you want any of the original PDFs / Power Points, just send me a PM), you have 2 pumps. While I personally use 2 pumps, you could get away with 1 as a cost savings. You'd be limited to either using gravity to help with your sparge if you fly sparge, or you'd have to go to batch sparging and switch the outputs of the pump back and forth for each batch sparge, but it could be done. That's a definite cost savings there, depending on the type of pump you go with.
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
Unless your stove only has an "ON" and "OFF" feature, then it's nowhere near the same. When I brewed on a stove, and then when I upgraded to a dedicated propane burner - both had the option to throttle the amount of heat being applied via the entire range of ON or OFF. Using a switch and an element, your options are just that - ON or OFF. This may work fine for you, but you can't claim there's no difference.
Click to expand...

I suppose in that sense you're right, but I've never needed any adjustment. My boils boil perfectly. The only way I can imagine they wouldn't is if I had WAY too much heat and very little head space. In terms of heating strike water, I have no idea why any adjustment would be needed there. The goal is to get up to strike temps as quickly as possible, then cut heat and rack to the mash tun.

Oh well. Maybe I lucked out...but it works for me.

Sometimes it seems like people are adamant that you MUST have control elements or that it would be "foolish" not to...I just like to point out that it's not required. People are daunted by the costs of the big fancy control panels, pumps, probes, camlocks, etc. but they're not required. If you want to brew indoors with greater efficiency than most stoves, no noxious gasses, etc. you can do so very inexpensively. That's all I'm saying.
 
one of the differences i think is that many of us recirculate in our MLT and have a HEX coil. you are doing a modified version of what i used to do on the stove (heat to 178 or something, account for heat loss to grain, and dough-in in a cooler.

back to the OP, why not go biab? you can get many of the benefits, easier to justify cost, and do it for 1/3 the price or so of a 3 pot system. it's approximate obviously
 

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